Conquest of Elysium 5

Conquest of Elysium 5

Conquest of Elysium 5 Large Overhaul
Alex the Beetrayer  [developer] 2 Mar, 2024 @ 7:35pm
New Class - Thief
***Well, the new Guildmaster class has a few similar themes/mechanics to this class. Some sort of rework/retheme will be necessary, let me know if you have any thoughts!

A. Should Thief be retired and the best mechanics/ideas moved to other classes?

B. Should Thief remain a stand alone class, and replace Thief Guilds for the Guildmaster with something else?

C. Should Thief be reskinned/rethemed to something else? A fallen empire, mage hunters, ratmen?***


Thief is a warlord type class with an emphasis on developing towns/cities, stealth units, and unique thief units that can travel to key locations to promote, have a chance to raise dark blessing and create randomized gold/items.

Described below are an overview and aspects of the class that are nuanced.

Commanders

Thief - The core of the faction, non-leader stealth commanders that come with 1 of 3 "Steal From" rituals for a type of terrain. These rituals require that the thief is adjacent to the specified location to cast and will summon and start a "battle" with "loot units".

"loot units" have Gold/Iron carrier traits and sometimes carry items and auto-kill themselves at the start of battle to give you the loot. The ritual will also promote the Thief to a more powerful form, possibly increase the Dark Blessing stat for the faction, and give the thief a new "Steal From" ritual for the next level.

Guild Master - Another core part of the faction, the Guild Master has many rituals that focus on developing towns/cities and boost gold/iron income. Only 1 Guild Master will exist at a time, but you will get a recruitment offer for a new one if he dies. Listed below are a few nuanced rituals.

Hire Informant - This ritual summons a stealthed non-combat unit with farsight at a settlement. Very useful for early scouting and you may maintain vision of stolen tiles if the enemy army doesn't have acute senses.

Usurp Throne - Useable at either the King's Castle or the Capital, this summons a "Throne Pretender" stationary unit that will generate gold and either boost recruitment for Thieves or Black Guard/Black Knight.

Found Guild Academy - Promotes a Magic Library to an Academy of Higher Magic, requires one Throne Pretender is owned befor it can be used. Can only be cast once per game.

Dark Rider - Cavalry commander recruited from Old Castle Ruins. Owning 1 enables the recruitment of Black Knights, powerful Dark Bless cavalry.

Dread Pirate - Commander recruited from Ports. Can spend Gold + Iron at a port to build Pirate Ships. Pirate Ships are faster than normal ships and enabled the use of the Dread Pirates Cannon Barrage ritual.

Cannon Barrage - Requires the Dread Pirate is on the same space as a pirate ship. Summons a "Cannon Barrage" unit up to 3 spaces away. The unit will make 5 prebattle cannon ball attacks and then self destruct. The cannon barrage will also destroy itself at the end of the turn if there is no combat.

Dread Pirates can perform a special "X Marks the Spot" ritual at Ancient Temple of the Deep terrain. This promotes the Dread Pirate to a Sea Scourge, a stronger undead caster that will periodically summon undead reinforcements and gains a few new rituals. Only 1 Sea Scourge can exist at once. The Sea Scourge can call in Cannon Barrages inland.

Plague Doctor - Level 2 Alchemy caster with unique rituals. Can spend a small amount of gold to cure battle afflictions/disease and can consume corpses/old battlefields on the map to generate gold/iron.

Units

The only unit recruitment available on all turns is Bandit Militia, which are non-stealthed archers. All other recruitment offers have a 10-20% chance to be offered each turn. Faction troop recruitment are not standard Elysium human troops but "Guild" troops. Guild troops are more expensive, being recruited 4 at a time instead of 5, but all have stealth + evasion.

Tips

It is important to plan your defenders for fortified locations due to how stealth mechanics work. If you don't want your defenders to fight an ambush battle instead of as defenders of the fort make sure to include a few non-stealthed units. Bandit Militia are always available for recruitment and are not stealth units.

Thieves are not very powerful initially and require gaining Dark Blessings and magic items to become powerful combatants. Avoid having thieves move alone early game and escort them with armies. Moving with an escort is also beneficial to ensure there is plenty of inventory space to pick up any gained items. When wandering independents and monster spawning locations in an area have been cleared it's less risky to have thieves run around as lone agents.

Send out patrols and explore. Thieves depend on special terrains to develop and locating all of them is highly beneficial.

Multiple Dread Pirates may cast multiple Cannon Barrages from 1 Pirate Ship.

Dark Blessing is only increased by performing Thieves "Steal From" rituals. Troops with Dark Blessing are: Thieves, Dark Riders, Black Knights, Black Guards.

Your staring terrain is a City of Vice that counts as a level 1 library. Try to bank ~100 Gold as soon as you can to be able to purchase Wizard offers. Your starting troops are at a disavantage without a caster.

Casting Hire Informant as you explore can be more effective than moving 1 extra space.

Brigand Lairs not only have a unique interaction with Guild Master rituals, but count as a citadel.

Guild Captains are more than just leaders, they know Guild Master Level 1 + 2 rituals.
Last edited by Alex the Beetrayer; 27 May @ 8:46pm
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Showing 1-15 of 19 comments
Cal Gore 9 Mar, 2024 @ 2:27pm 
I've started around 5-6 matches with this new class, but I can't find a consistent path in the early game. If you start next to a few tiles you can steal from it ramps up well, but in games where I have to do the normal expansion like any other class it seems like I get outpaced hard. I feel like it could use an always available chaff recruit similar to Makaras or Goblins so that you can more realistically have parties with thieves where the thieves don't die in the melee due to being in the front rank. Being front- while only having recruitable melee squads of 4 means its extremely expensive to field a group that allows a thief to explore and find places to steal from. The only matches I've managed to do this in a timely manner were matches were the starting layout RNG gave me multiple steals in the first 5 or so turns. Other than that every match ends up with me slowly building up a single expansion force that gets heavily outpaced. Any advice?
Alex the Beetrayer  [developer] 9 Mar, 2024 @ 4:53pm 
Thanks for the feedback and trying out the new class so extensively! Some additional tips I can think of from my recent games is to prioritize casting "Corrupt Noble" in your starting city to immediately boost income and start the trickle of free enforcer troops, pick up Guild Lycanthrope offers early to start a strong durable front line for your main army, and it can be worth saving up ~100 gold early on to capitalize on a caster offer or a particularly good mercenary offer rather than continually pumping out standard recruits when not under immediate pressure or in dire need of troops to continue capturing tiles.

I really like your suggestion for an always available front line melee troop. I have a smallish update planned soon and I'm going to get that included in there before sending that out.

Some other planned adjustments that will be coming soon is expanding "Rumors and Secrets" to also scry terrains that Thief rituals use to help mitigate map generation RNG from being too harsh of an immediate obstacle, and increasing Thief recruitment offers when no other Thieves are owned to help rebound from bad luck.
Gobby 30 May, 2024 @ 7:32pm 
Love the class! Just played a huge map--early to midgame was very fun and engaging. Things got a little rocky later on though. As you spread out into late-game size, the Guild Troops start to get really scarce. Thief is very good at hiring mercenaries and wizards when you get to this point, which helps a lot with this issue. You still need to rely on bandits and cutthroats a lot more though, weirdly making your late-game armies LESS elite.

Dark Knights were the only thing that bucked this trend. Well worth their cost and *crucially* recruitable every round. Most of my economy was funneled into ruined castles to churn those bad boys out.

And I was glad to have them. Focusing mercenaries is good flavor for the class, but too bland to be their ONLY strong lategame tech. Knights and blackgaurds aren't very... "Theify." But I kind of dig it? The transition into more overt and conventional representations of power as the guild reaches it zenith.

So, my recommendation: More options LIKE the knights, equally restricted to terrain types, darkblessed, and spammable-but-expensive. Here's some specifics, spaghetti at the wall style.

First--black knights recruitable on the king's castle. It's the source of unicorn knights after all.

Rework Heartseeker into a peer of of the Dark Rider. Only available from temples. Enables recruitment of blessed longbows--from temples, but also from the Capital. Suitably expensive!

Make Blackguards recruitable instead of passive spawn. Enabled by having a Pretender alive and only recruitable from the Capital and the Kings' Castle.

This way getting a pretender up gives you access to 2 endgame units--but only on one tile. I think that's not TOO much stronger than the current knight-obsessed endgame.
Alex the Beetrayer  [developer] 31 May, 2024 @ 9:03am 
Glad to hear you dig the new class and thank you again for a detailed critique. I'll definitely consider refreshing the late game troop options as that's what the Black Knights/Black Guard are intended to be, but with one being a random spawn I can see where there is not an interesting decision to be made beyond recruiting the knights every turn.
Gobby 7 Oct, 2024 @ 10:57am 
I would put forward that it would be more thematic for the Thief class to get a trade bonus instead of an iron bonus. It just feels right that thieves buy their weapons instead of making them themselves. This would be a nerf, of course... but that's an opportunity to give them cool stuff, right?
Alex the Beetrayer  [developer] 7 Oct, 2024 @ 12:32pm 
One thing I like about the current setup, is that it allows the faction to be adaptable and benefit from a mine heavy start rather than add more reliance on towns/cities. I'm OK with the more abstract thematic representation of gold/iron bonus representing superior governance of human subjects/stealing extra resources on the side. However, I'm not super opposed to this suggestion either, so I'll put it on the maybe list for consideration if/when I revisit this faction's more nuanced details. If anything a +25% trade bonus could be a good buff if it seems like they're in need of a boost.
Gobby 20 Oct, 2024 @ 5:31pm 
I will admit, when I recommended this change, I hadn't considered the health of the class on a mine-heavy map. I have spent some more time with the class now, and have kept that idea in mind.

I have come to feel that currently, the class is not actually resilient to a mine-heavy start, and in fact the iron bonus doesn't do much for them in this regard.

In a mine-heavy start, what you are really thankful for is the gold bonus. Mines give gold, after all! And it's the gold you really need. That 25% extra iron is really best if its sold (trade bonus would help there, actually!)

Compare them with the Senator, who does just fine in a mine-heavy environment, even without an iron bonus. Why? How? Because despite having no iron bonus, they have good uses for iron. The more extra iron they have, the better equipped their troops get. If your reserves get a little high, along comes a War Elephant. And if its too high, you've got the trade bonus to sell it off with.

Soooo... the pitch... the short version is that things cost too much gold and not enough iron. Getting into specifics is going to give you a lot to disagree with. So let's get started:
Gobby 20 Oct, 2024 @ 5:56pm 
First: Tweak iron-equipped troops to a higher iron-gold ratio. Lower gold cost makes the early game much more playable, and this way you don't need a bunch of gold to use some iron.

Marksmen: Cost down to 40 G + 5 Iron, batch number down to 3.
Duelists: Cost down to 40 G + 10 Iron, batch number down to 3. HP up to 12.

Dark Knights: Cost down to 75 G + 25 Iron, HP down to 14. (these guys are superhuman, when they should be peak-human. Also cheaper, they should be cheaper)

Black Guard: Cost down to 75 G + 25 Iron, Armor down to 2. (With darkbless, stealth, flails, and normal speed, these guys are special enough without being the heaviest armored footmen in the game. And you know, cheaper.)
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Next: Iron Gate. A major potential iron sink that is really dubiously useful. I say rework this into 2 separate rituals that provide something more attractive. Right now I say keep the cost at 50 Iron for each...

Fortify City: Cast on cities. Makes an iron gate, but also! spawns a batch of garrison archers and! summons a "Corrupt Guard." No gold bonus on this guy, but he generates some kind of "town guard" flavored unit... something similar to swords or pikes.

Marauder Fortress: Cast on tile with a Marauder Boss. Gives his hillfort an iron gate, but also! Promotes him to a Marauder King. I am thinking gold bonus increases to 2 and he starts additionally spawning non-stealth armored marauders. Now this can be a major iron sink.
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Last: Faction-wide Iron bonus is out, trade bonus is in. A mine-heavy start is not hell anymore, given how much more valuable the other changes make iron. And the trade bonus, crucially, allows the class to get iron using ONLY cities, and no mines. I think that given the class's identity, being able to really prosper with just cities is at least as important as not being shafted if you have just mines.
Alex the Beetrayer  [developer] 20 Oct, 2024 @ 9:55pm 
Thank you for the follow up after playing a few more games with the class, definitely appreciate the detailed feedback. I think I'm on the same page regarding the high iron cost of some of the units, especially the Blackguard. I'm happy with their new role as a recruitment rather than a "spawned" unit, but cost is currently skewed too high, while the units themselves have a bit too much inherent strength, and it would be more in line with their intended role if they were more viable to purchase earlier with a lower cost, but didn't begin to ramp up with very powerful traits until a few dark blessings are acquired. Lower iron costs on units also alleviates the aforementioned need for an iron bonus which tips the favor towards a trade bonus, which can be later leveraged to convert an unneeded iron stockpile.

For the rituals, I'll give those suggestions some thought. Definitely a few ideas that could be viable.
Gobby 21 Oct, 2024 @ 9:59am 
One thing I DON'T like about nerfing the holy troops is it kind of dampens a late game that, as I play it now, seems pretty damp already.

I have 10 stacks of library, but mercenary mages seem VERY rare. I have also yet to see a Guild Shadowmage... not sure if there's a step I missed but I have 2 academies and can't figure out what to do with them. Not sure if this is working as intended or what.

If I could field mages, I probably wouldn't need another gold sink. But options are a good thing.
How about gating some tech behind a Prince of Thieves? Maybe give them "enables recruitment" that ups the % chance for some of the stronger guild troops.
Alex the Beetrayer  [developer] 22 Oct, 2024 @ 9:01am 
The most significant change will be Blackguard going 3 to 2 armor, but gold cost + recruit offer rate will be adjusted accordingly so it won't be a harsh nerf. This should bring them more in line with their role as an "elite heavy infantry" that trades the usual Guild Evasion trait for normal movement where human units in that role typically are slow.

The "Guild Shadowmage" was a unit that was mentioned previously in the "big update" notes but ended up being cut. I don't think there's any mention of them in any in-game descriptions but let me know if that's not the case.

Currently the class does not have an inherent wizard recruitment bonus like the Baron or Senator since their starting tile is a city that provides 1 library point. However, this will likely be bumped up a bit since Wizards are integral to this class at almost every point in the game. It may be another situation where "on paper" 1 point in wizard recruit bonus is equivalent to starting with 1 library point, but since there's no documentation on what's actually happening in the background the library points may not be as influential as an inherent bonus.

Additionally the Plague Doctor serves as the classes unique wizard but currently doesn't have a level 3 promotion. For most classes this is fine since usually these casters are not meant to become equivalent to the main caster of the class, but since Thief is a pure Warlord a level 3 promotion seems fitting here. This way they synergize better with the classes inherent ability to found an academy, we actually get to see Alchemy 3, and an opportunity for more advanced rituals to be added.

I think Prince of Thieves unlocking some recruitment is a fine idea. I might play around with them unlocking more expensive "double batch" offers of most of the Guild troops.
Gobby 22 Oct, 2024 @ 4:53pm 
Hmm... the next idea I had was going to be swapping the Doctor's spell school to Jade Sorcery, since i think that school fits their theme better than alchemy. But pure jade sorcery doesn't work if you want to the doctor to upgrade beyond level 2...
Alex the Beetrayer  [developer] 27 May @ 8:48pm 
Well, the new Guildmaster class has a few similar themes/mechanics to this class. Some sort of rework/retheme will be necessary, let me know if you have any thoughts!

A. Should Thief be retired and the best mechanics/ideas moved to other classes?

B. Should Thief remain a stand alone class, and replace Thief Guilds for the Guildmaster with something else?

C. Should Thief be reskinned/rethemed to something else? A fallen empire, mage hunters, ratmen?
Gobby 28 May @ 12:49pm 
I must admit, when I saw this I was baffled that you'd even CONSIDER scrapping the Theif. I still don't imagine that it could be cannibalized very effectively--so much of your work would surely just rot.

BUT! I went and looked at guildmaster, and damn, it does step on theif's toes pretty hard. The guilds have a theives' guild, of course. But they also recruit apothecaries as magic firepower, have interactions with ports that spawn pirates... Yeesh!

I applaud you for being open to killing your darlings, but ultimately I don't think killing or rat-ifying Thief is the best call. Justifications three:

Firstly-- the Guild's theives are quite barebones. They offer the class stupid exploration and a cheeky sabotage mechanic... It is one ritual in a bloated list.
Second-- Thief is actually deceptively close to being distinct ENOUGH from the Guilds. Many classes come in foiled pairs, and with a little tweaking, the Thief's stealth and darkbless gimmicks could make a nice dark mirror to the Guild's raw economic potential.
Third-- The Guild needs tweaks anyway. While we must praise the holy dev for blessing us with a bunch of mechanics modders have been failing to implement for a while (and hope that SOME of these are actually accessible to modders) I am forced to point out that the Guild fits more in with the vanilla roster than the LO roster. Since they need some of that Beetrayer sauce anyway, I think it gives you plenty of opportunity to tweak them away from Thief.

Double post!
Gobby 28 May @ 1:10pm 
It remains to present a vision of implementation:

First, axe the Guild's thieves' guild. The Guild already has stupid exploration from the adventurer's guild, which is much cooler and more thematic anyway. I think the adventurers should be expanded and made easier to access.

Axing the thieves' guild also means the Guild can't make pirates... It was a unique and cool feature, but not really load-bearing and hard to do anyway! So I guess just axe Guild pirates too. The sailors' guild or whatever they're called can get some other, more "good guy" flavored stuff to compensate.

While I don't think both classes hiring apothecaries as mage-muscle is bad, I could also see the Guild's apothecaries' guild being axed too. It's redundant with their mage-guild and doesn't do much? The Guild's apothecaries cant even cure wounds, and they upgrade to alchemists for some reason... I DO like the potential mirroring of (buffed) apothecaries being used to enchant locations while Plague Doctors loot instead. But, as before: Not load-bearing.

Once the Thief and the Guild have some personal space between each other, you can maybe look at any new mechanics the Guild has that can be applied to the Thief, to sell the "dark foil" angle and maybe tidy up/expand the Thief at the same time.

The Guild's ability to hire assassins, for instance, could be moved to the Thief maybe? Or just rolled into the later features of the mercenary's Guild if you want them to keep it.

just to avoid confusion the Theif's officers could be renamed "Crime Boss" and "Crime Lord" or something.
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