Sid Meier's Civilization V

Sid Meier's Civilization V

Dynamic Towns
Vox Populi Compatibility Suggestions and Balancing
I've created this discussion to try and encourage keeping Balance and Compatibility suggestions for Vox Populi in one place.
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I've launched this mod with Vox Populi and In-Game Editor in an attempt to see what about it conflicts with Vox Populi.

After looking through the Civilopedia in VP it seems that Vox Populi overwrites your changes to the Trading Post, but since both mods call it a Village it has the appearance of working.

The fact that there are entries for both the Town added by this mod and Vox Populi's rename of the Customs House to Town strongly supports this assumption I feel.
Quick Info-Post about Vox Populi Villages and Towns:

In VP, Trading Posts are renamed to Villages, and Customs Houses are renamed to Towns.

VP Villages produce +2 Gold and +1 Culture on their own and may not be built adjacent to another Village.

This is increased by +1 Gold and +1 Production if they are built on a Road, and doubled to +2 Gold and +2 Production if built on a Railroad.

Finally, VP Villages receive an additional +1 Gold and Production if a Trade Route passes over their Tile. This Trade Route bonus is doubled after entering the Industrial Era.

VP Towns work similarly, but provide a base yield of +6 Gold and +2 Food.
On Roads they provide +2 Gold and +2 Production, and this is doubled if they're built on a Railroad.

Lastly, VP Towns receive an additional +2 Gold and +2 Production if a Trade Route is passing over them, and but it does not say if this doubles or not in the Industrial Era and later.
Small Addition, the Rights of Man Social Policy from the Rationalism Tree in Vox Populi grants an additional +2 Gold and +2 Production to Villages.
So if there were to be a VP compatibility for this, it's gotta be stronger in scaling-yields than the current VP villages (that the AI could potentially make use of, too).
Oh and thinking about it, do village upgrades in itself (no CP) work with modded luxuries like from Barathor's More Luxuries?
Azaquor  [developer] 7 Apr, 2023 @ 5:16pm 
Wow, this is extremely helpful! Thanks to both of you for your help on this!

I downloaded VP and I've been playing it without Dynamic Towns just to get my bearings and get a sense of the balance.

I definitely agree that a Vox Populi version of Dynamic Towns is going to need increased yields. The effort of strategic city planning -- and the added cognitive overhead of thinking about all the location qualities and proximity rules -- is only worth it if Large Towns are strong enough.

Under the hood, I see that a Village in VP is actually a Trading Post, and a Town is actually a Customs House, they're just renamed and reworked. That's a good sign for a Dynamic Towns patch.

Tentatively, I think a good approach for Dynamic Towns VP could be something vaguely like (updated):
  • Since Customs House is a new building in VP, rename Great Merchant Towns to Trade Hub
  • Villages give 2 Gold only -- can be adjacent -- +1 Gold for road/trade route
  • Towns (from Dynamic Towns) give +2 Gold, +1 Prod, +1 Culture -- +1 Gold & Prod for road or trade route -- +2 Gold & Prod for railroad
  • Large Towns get +4 Gold, +2 Prod, +2 Culture -- +2 Gold & Prod for road or trade route -- +3 Gold & Prod for railroad
  • Tradition keeps Suburbs, Progress gets Burgs, Authority gets to conquer rich Cities

This is only an idea based on my initial impressions of the scaling in VP. I'm looking forward to collaborating and figuring this out!
Last edited by Azaquor; 20 Apr, 2023 @ 2:43am
Azaquor  [developer] 7 Apr, 2023 @ 5:20pm 
@Ripple Effects, currently Dynamic Towns won't recognize Barathor's luxuries as desirable locations. When I get a chance, I do plan to release a compatibility update.
Originally posted by Azaquor:
Wow, this is extremely helpful! Thanks to both of you for your help on this!

I downloaded VP and I've been playing it without Dynamic Towns just to get my bearings and get a sense of the balance.

I definitely agree that a Vox Populi version of Dynamic Towns is going to need increased yields. The effort of strategic city planning -- and the added cognitive overhead of thinking about all the location qualities and proximity rules -- is only worth it if Large Towns are strong enough.

Under the hood, I see that a Village in VP is actually a Trading Post, and a Town is actually a Customs House, they're just renamed and reworked. That's a good sign for a Dynamic Towns patch.

Tentatively, I think a good approach for Dynamic Towns VP could be something vaguely like:
  • Since Customs House is a new building in VP, rename Great Merchant Towns (to Trade Hub?)
  • Villages give +1 Gold only, no road or trade route buffs
  • Towns (from Dynamic Towns) give +2 Gold, +1 Prod, +1 Culture, road and trade buffs
  • Large Towns get +3 Gold, +2 Prod, +2 Culture, road and trade buffs (double?)
  • Tradition keeps Suburbs, Progress gets Burgs, Authority gets to conquer rich Cities

This is only an idea based on my initial impressions of the scaling in VP. I'm looking forward to collaborating and figuring this out!

This seems like a good place to start yeah.
Azaquor  [developer] 9 Apr, 2023 @ 5:34pm 
Support for More Luxuries is almost complete! That's the first step toward Vox Populi support. Just finishing up testing and then I'll release within the next day or two, conditions willing.
Originally posted by Azaquor:
Support for More Luxuries is almost complete! That's the first step toward Vox Populi support. Just finishing up testing and then I'll release within the next day or two, conditions willing.

Very nice.
Originally posted by Azaquor:
Support for More Luxuries is almost complete! That's the first step toward Vox Populi support. Just finishing up testing and then I'll release within the next day or two, conditions willing.

Noice
Keep in mind that Free Thought, in the Rationalism tree, gives around 3 science and 2 culture to villages. Maybe this could be buffed depending on the location of the town?
Azaquor  [developer] 12 Apr, 2023 @ 1:07pm 
I haven't done a deep dive into policies yet, I'll hopefully get to that soon. The policy trees are really different in a fascinating way.

I'm not sure yet whether I can buff settlements based on what location qualities they have. Dev notes: location qualities are completely scripted and bypass the XML layer completely. Yields are normally set by the XML layer. I think there's a function in the Lua API that can change tile yields, but I haven't messed with that at all and don't know if it works, or whether it's a bad idea to use it for some reason.
Azaquor  [developer] 12 Apr, 2023 @ 1:15pm 
I did a bit of a deep dive into unique improvements by looking through this Vox Populi Civ guide. Here's what I think could work:

Unique Improvements
  • Brazil -- Brazilwood Camp -- gains important since it's less spammable now
  • France -- Chateau -- keeps historic
  • Huns -- Eki -- nothing, it's too spammable
  • Inca -- Terrace Farm -- keeps bountiful
  • Maya -- Kuna -- gains historic
  • Morocco -- Kasbah -- keeps historic -- suburbs can develop next to a Kasbah (necessary to balance Tradition since Kasbahs are now competing with suburbs for the first city ring. Dev note: this is a fair amount of work to implement but probably worth it)
  • China -- Siheyuan -- gains convenient -- suburbs can develop next to a Siheyuan, as long as that Siheyuan is adjacent to a City
  • Netherlands -- Polder -- keeps desirable -- gives adjacent Towns, Large Towns, and Trade Hubs +1 Gold, nothing from Villages -- (dev note: why are there 2 Polders? why is only one of them marked unique to the Netherlands?)
  • Polynesia -- Moai -- keeps historic
  • Portugal -- Feitoria -- keeps important (this is a buff to Portugal since you can actually build Feitorias along your own coasts in VP)
  • Shoshone -- Encampment -- gains convenient (is this OP?)
  • Spain -- Hacienda -- gains convenient

Unique Buildings
  • Venice -- Murano Glassworks -- gives Towns +2 Food and +2 Tourism, and Large Towns +2 Food and +4 Tourism, nothing from Villages

As always everyone's thoughts are welcome. Did I miss anything? Does this feel balanced?
Last edited by Azaquor; 20 Apr, 2023 @ 4:41pm
Agreed on Eki, the Huns can gain tiles so fast that it's easy to get those desirable tiles. I wanna say the same for Shoshone's Encampment, but they get far less of them if they start in many hills.

Now thinking of it, Iroquois (and the Celts if they take Cerrunos) can get some very tasty town locations with their Herbalist replacement.
Last edited by 她惹绿色 笔吴 (猫 ㅇㅅ; 12 Apr, 2023 @ 1:51pm
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