Slay the Spire

Slay the Spire

The History Eater 上白泽慧音
Autmn  [developer] 9 Jul, 2023 @ 1:41am
Balance Discussion
Discuss about the general power level of Keine and the balance between individual cards
< >
Showing 1-15 of 19 comments
Zu 9 Jul, 2023 @ 6:07am 
Before I get into the cards in alphabetical order, I'll assign a rough value to each keyword so I don't need to repeat myself.

Time Shift 12 / Hakutaku (cut "Form" to save space if you want):
Minimum value 4 (so Time Shift 1 / all cards get a value of like 0.33) since the guaranteed effect is half a flex across 2 turns and the payoff cards are all over the place.
I think 12 is a fine threshold. I wouldn't go higher than 14 for excitement reasons, so if it ever feels too strong, tweak the payoff cards instead.

History:
Baseline value 3 (if strength is mostly irrelevant, random targeting adds like 25% value, so 1 history is like a smol rip n tear that deals 5 with a 1-turn delay which also adds like 33% value).
In context with knowledge and rewind, it can be as high as 7. What's hard to assess is that it lowers by 20% each turn. In practice, it seems fine, but you may want to let it decay faster.

Knowledge:
By itself, value 7 (half of machine learning). In context with rewind, draw procs, 0-cost cards, and the fact you can reach a critical mass of 10, it's closer to 8 or even 9.

Rewind:
Average value around 2. If there was no synergy with rewinding, it'd actually be more of a downside since it's practically a slower, unreliable retain that slows your cycling. It very much depends on what you rewind but you likely have some history at all times.


Finally, cards. Any I skip are perfectly fine. I don't have time to comb through them all today but so far I'm mostly proposing minor tweaks.

Amaterasu:
Might work better as a buff like after image that wears off after a few turns. Fine as is though.

Afterlife Odyssey:
Might work better with higher damage and only 1 copy. This way, you could give the upgrade innate too which would be very appealing in some runs. Also fine as is though.

Ancient Protection:
Could easily be 4 and upgrade to 6 or 0-cost.

Beginning of End:
I don't think the watcher penalty matters if only one card does it, so I propose 11 damage.

Borrowed Treasure:
Could be 9.

Coordinated Strike:
The way it pans out, you mostly end up playing this twice. In this case, it's a worse twin strike, and you don't really care about twin strike past act 1. If you consider it a card that wants to be discarded / rewound first, it looks a lil better, but I think it could be 8.

Devour History:
In fairness, second wind looks a lot better at 10 knowledge, but otherwise I'd really like this to just exhaust my whole hand and upgrade to draw 1 after.

Elegance:
Could be 11, maybe even 12.

First Pyramid:
Upgrade seems largely irrelevant. Could replace ethereal with time shift 1.

Flower of Edo:
Not sure you wanna print a strictly better cleave. Let's say +4 for now.

GHQ:
One of the cases where hakutaku is oddly strong, and it's easy to weave in since it costs 0. Consider tweaking so it costs 1, but it shouldn't gain more than 1 energy either way.

Guardian:
Rather big efficiency gap. It jumps from like -3 to +15. I know it looks more elegant if both numbers are identical, but I'd rather not nerf the block since it's more important than the backloaded cleave damage in most fights. Idk how far down I'd go but let's say 10 damage for now. I mean, protect is playable in act 1 even without establishment. This card is already better the first time you draw it in cases where retain doesn't matter, and it doesn't even proc gremlin nob.
Zu 9 Jul, 2023 @ 4:05pm 
Had some time to think about Flower of Edo again. I think it'd be more interesting if it started as a stronger cleave that actually gets weaker each time you draw it, but you could make it stronger overall by rewinding it.
Deal (A) damage to
all enemies.
When drawn: (B) less.
If rewound: 3*(B) more.
The phrasing might not be explicit enough for you but I think it's comprehensible, isn't it?


Back to other cards:

Ephemerality:
I'm not sure this can exist as is. 3 turns is a long time. Even if you do nothing, that's 45 damage. It's a fun risk on paper but perhaps we can keep the spirit of the card while making it less nutty in the early game.
I know this is radically different but bear with me:
Gain 4(6) Knowledge, 2
Strength, 2 Full Moon.
Set your HP to 4(6).
Revert if you survive.
Exhaust.

Flow of History:
In hindsight, I don't think you need the bonus clause. It's already really good if you have 1 history. Well, it might work with 6, 1, 2.

HEADBUTT!!1! :berserk:
Needs exhaust. That's all.

History of Fantasy:
Seems narrow. What if rare and "The first time (2 times) you gain History each turn, gain 2 more."? Could swap rarity with amaterasu or phantasmal emperor.

Keine Ahnung:
Funny pun. Can you track pick rates like the gatherer mod btw? Asking because I haven't tried this yet. It just seems like unnecessary overkill, lmao.

Learn from Pain:
Dat bonus clause tho. If you replace 1 knowledge with draw 1, you could push the upgrade to draw 2 which sounds fun once in a while. See pommel strike.

Masakado Crisis:
1 energy. Could even tie it to rewinding 2 but that would feel sorta silly at low knowledge.

Mind Cleanse:
I'm more ok with this relatively high payoff since it doesn't provide scaling. Still, 4 block.

New Semester:
1 🧠 if you have none (or 1).

Penetrating Gaze:
1-cost. 5 damage. 2 Vuln. Imagine if spot weakness cost 0 and gave 2 strength.

Phantasmal Emperor:
Huge payoff again. If you wanna keep the double, damage really can't be higher than 10. If this baseline feels too low for you, raise it and make the hakutaku bonus static.

Rain of Showa:
Does this mistakenly cast 4 times? If intentional, 5 damage for 20 total. If 3 hits, 7 is ok.
Last edited by Zu; 9 Jul, 2023 @ 4:07pm
Autmn  [developer] 10 Jul, 2023 @ 6:14am 
Thank you SO much for you dedication into my humble little project. I can never imagine someone kind enough like you. Before I respond to your card by card analysis I would like to talk about some concerns I have with Keine in general.

Keine's average card cost is generally very low. And some of the high cost cards can generate energy: Masakado/Yoshimitsu Crisis, which makes them "fake high cost". This means that she would be needing a lot more card draw to catch up. Rewind makes that even worse. I very much agree with you on the Rewind being negative keyword. Currently, the two forms of card draw she gets are: from cards and from Knowledge.

From cards: because of the fact that History benefits from card drawn and there already is Knowledge to draw, I was very conservative when designing her card draw cards. A lot of the card draw from cards are conditional or have neg effect: shifting history, fading past, wheel of time, scroll slash, etc. Cards like Explain Again is absolutely unplayable if not played by Keine (if you cannot get value from rewind, its un-upgraded form is basically 1 cost draw 1.) So players are kinda pushed to take Knowledge.

From Knowledge: this keyword is mechanically op. The biggest issue is that there are not many cards that gives Knowledge (11/75). Comparing to Strength to Ironclad (6/75) it may seems plenty but considering how essential the keyword is to Keine and how most of her card draw cards are terrible, it can be worse. In higher ascension, I always take whatever the first knowledge card is offered and if I still cannot find a way to stack at least some Knowledge in Act 2, I will usually die.

About Rewind: I very much agree with you on this keyword being a negative keyword. If without any synergies like when drawn and History, it is a worse retain that is inconsistent and cost you a draw. I think that when I was initially designing I was more focused on the in-characterness and by the time I realize the issue I was already too far into development to make significant changes to major mechanics. The existence of rewind is also a reason to take Knowledge. If rewind alone gives Keine -5 power level, player have to take Knowledge (+7 power level) to make it a +2 overall (these are merely some vague values idk what Im talking about but hopefully you get the idea).

And yes, finally, History. This keyword's value has way too much of a gap. While 1 History does nothing (if you can rewind cards in the same turn it does something otherwise you will lose it at the end of your turn), 5 History can easily deal minimum of 20 (4*5) dmg in the following turn, not calculating any knowledge draw, adt draw from cards and rewind. This is the easiest way to scale dmg and each History card makes the previous ones better. So even after the emergency nerf on v 0.0.2, it is still very much op if you can stack it high, since that's the issue with the mechanic.

Overall, my major concerns are:
- Keine has generally worse card draw cards than other character and negative keyword Rewind so players are forced to rely on Knowledge to draw. If failed to get Knowledge cards, it would be a somewhat miserable experience.
- History can snowball absurd amount of damage once stacked and since Keine lack the ability to output enough damage only from attack cards, players are inclined to rely on History, resulting linear, even boring gameplay.
Last edited by Autmn; 10 Jul, 2023 @ 7:41am
Zu 10 Jul, 2023 @ 7:26am 
Reading Scroll:
Simple example of how you could save space. "Hakutaku: +2 Block." would fit in one line. And yes, I can totally see people arguing that this would add unnecessary math, lmao.

Returning Bridge:
Super cool, although I fear the fancy stuff might stop mattering at high ascension. The devs were also deliberate in not adding too many cards that unconditionally deal big damage in act 1. My solution would be a nerf to 12 damage but the boss just needs to die in 2(3) turns.
Also gonna try to make it less wordy again:
Deal 12 damage.
Open this card's Gate.
Prime the enemy.
(If a primed boss dies
in 2(3) turns, it enters.)
Exhaust.
Gate (tooltip)
Enemies who enter make
this card's Gate stronger.
(List of bonuses.)
Lil metaphorical, I know, but I chose this wording to imply that copies of this card don't all benefit from the same collection of enemies.
In hindsight, you could make this even simpler by including normies and elites. Nothing unique. Like 2 normal enemies = +1 damage and 1 elite = draw 1 or something. If so:
Deal 12 damage.
Open this card's Gate.
If the enemy dies in 2(3)
turns, it enters.
Exhaust.

Revision:
Similar to new semester. "Free" knowledge is really good, so I'd say 11(14) block and 1 🧠 if less than 2(3).

Scroll Slash & Storm:
Unsure. These are clearly overtuned but exceptions are fine within reason.
I'll say "Add half your Knowledge."

Stacked Workload:
Immense gap again. "Haku: Add it to your hand." for sure. Fatigue btw, not Refreshed.

Sream of History:
I've been thinking long and hard about this but I actually think the math checks out. Not the upgrade though. Maybe:
Unplayable.
When Drawn: Gain 2
History next turn.
(If Rewound: 1 more.)
(You prolly noticed by now that upgrades go in brackets.)

Time Flies:
Suddenly oddly undertuned but I think you can make a smol exception.
Hakutaku: Draw 1.
Then, if you have Full
Moon, draw 1 card.

Total Purification:
I wonder if this is too similar to Devour History. Just some food for thought.

Unofficial History:
If you wanna upgrade to 3 history, gain 2 weak as well.

Wheel of Time:
8 block. See Leap.


Congratulations if you made it this far. Hopefully you're not in despair now. It's your mod and you decide what to do with it. I just had some time on my hands.

You probably don't need to care about most of these cards except Flower of Edo, GHQ, Guardian, Ephemerality, Phantasmal Emperor, and Stacked Workload.

Yes, even Bridge is fine. I just tried to make it more feasible at A19 where it's quite risky to stall bosses until Feed or Lesson Learned.
Autmn  [developer] 10 Jul, 2023 @ 7:35am 
Onto the cards
Amaterasu:
You are right about the rarity. It used to be an uncommon that does less damage. I'm still questionable about it being a rare but I will leave it for now.

Afterlife Odyssey:
I can see what you mean. I do love pentakilling the slimes tho (unless gray slime rolls a 15)

Ancient Protection:
It used to be 3/4 like feel no pain. I thought Keine has access to Rewind easier that Ironclad to exhaust, so change it into a unless innate upgrade. I feel like 4/6 is a bit too strong since it is a per card effect, I may revert it to 3/4. Or make exhaust gain 3 block as well.

Beginning of End:
This is one of the earliest cards I designed. I never liked this card. Might delete it and add something else.

Borrowed Treasure:
I agree. Will change to 9.

Coordinated Strike:
I only take it in A20 as the first damage card or I seriously need ways to do damage. However, I really love the in-character of the card. It's like Keine and Mokou working together. I may change it to 8.

Devour History:
It used to have a very different mechanic, which is later moved to Deconstruction/Reconstruction. I may rework this card but will definitely keep the exhaust. This card is also very in-character.

Elegance:
You are so spot on that I don't know how to express my astonishment. It is initially 12 then nerfed to 11 then to 10. I will revert it to 11.

First Pyramid:
Unless upgrade indeed. However, this card is like inflame for clad or defragment to defect. I do have a rework design on it tho: Change Knowledge to be able to draw up to only 3 additional cards. This card becomes: gain 2 Knowledge. Knowledge can draw up to 4/5 adt cards. But considering my previous concerns Im not sure its a good idea. What's your opinion on this?

Flower of Edo:
The in-characterness of this card is to imitate the fire getting stronger as the time goes on. I do like your design very much but it goes against the lore behind the card by a little bit. I might change it into when you draw it increase dmg but when you play it decrease dmg? This way if you rewind it will still do more dmg.

GHQ:
I agree. For the for Crisis cards I am trying to imitate the spell cards in touhou that goes from easy to lunatic difficulties and here from common to rare in rarity and cost 1,2,3,0 (I wanted to design a 4 cost card but no avail). I will change it to only gain 1 energy regardless.

Guardian:
This card references Keine being Mokou's Guardian in IN. I can see what you mean and will consider changing the numbers.
Last edited by Autmn; 10 Jul, 2023 @ 8:16am
Zu 10 Jul, 2023 @ 8:00am 
Originally posted by Autmn:
Overall, my major concerns are:
- Keine has generally worse card draw cards than other character and negative keyword Rewind so players are forced to rely on Knowledge to draw. If failed to get Knowledge cards, it would be a somewhat miserable experience.
- History can snowball absurd amount of damage once stacked and since Keine lack the ability to output enough damage only from attack cards, players are inclined to rely on History, resulting linear, even boring gameplay.
Knowledge is kind of a rebel, isn't it? Lmao.

Maybe the solution is to buff the rewind keyword. I have a few in mind but they're ham-fisted.
"Then, if you're holding 1 card or none, draw 1 card."
"If you Rewind any common or unplayable cards, draw 1 card."


As for history being your only source of scaling damage, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Like, how often do you have ironchad runs that rely on juggernaut? Even bodyslam with corruption is more common.

I think the few cards that get a lil better with knowledge are fine but I wouldn't go further in this direction since knowledge by itself can be good enough.
Side note:
If you feel like it, tweak some numbers to see how different knowledge thresholds feel. You could go as high as 10 knowledge = 1 draw. Bigger numbers make fine-tuning easier.

Whether or not you buff rewind, you could totally have a power like juggernaut that makes rewinding (or not rewinding) better, or a card that remembers how often you rewound in combat, or a card that gets permanently stronger if you play it after rewinding a certain number of times.

The possibilities are endless.
I think it helps to look at the current pool to see if one particular keyword / job / cost / etc. could do with one fewer member so you can use that slot for something else.
And I haven't even touched on relics which can also make for special runs once in a while. Stuff like tough bandages or tingsha.
Autmn  [developer] 10 Jul, 2023 @ 8:12am 
Ephemerality:
That is a VERY cool design. I do want to keep the 1, 3, and 7 in the card tho. I will try to merge the 2 together. (Also easter egg: you take 137137 dmg if killed by Ephemerality).

Flow of History:
This card got changed/nerfed at least 10 times before beta came out. Which is funny because it is nerfed once after the beta and is still strong. I think 6,1,2 maybe a bit to weak for an initial History card, but will def nerf it in some other way.

HEADBUTT!:
Will add exhaust.

History of Fantasy:
Yeah this card is kinda awkward. Will consider reworking it.

Keine Ahnung:
Thanks! I've been wanting to make this pun for a while and will not waste this precious opportunity. And also I can't see the rates. This card serves mostly as a meme. A reference to Cirno being the 9 that she is.

Learn from Pain:
This card has infinity potential with the Refreshed package, which is the reason I didn't make it too absurd. Standard Infinity include: Night Stroll+ exhaust 2 Refreshed, draw 2, Learn exhaust the last 1 draw 1, and Moon Shift to gain 1 energy (as long as you have at least one full moon). There are other various ways to go infinite which I will not elaborate. But apart from that it's just a niche card with a niche effect. (there is a easter egg associated with this card)/

Masakado Crisis:
Again I am this very stubborn person that cares about the in-characterness. I am sorry if it bothers you. As mentioned, the Crisis goes up in rarity and cost to imitate the touhou difficulty levels. I will try to change some numbers tho.

Mind Cleanse:
Will change to 4 block.

New Semester:
Spot on once again. Have you considered making a mod yourself perhaps lol. I will revert it.

Penetrating Gaze:
That sounds reasonable. This card is an almost always take for me.

Phantasmal Emperor:
To my defensive. Keine really lacks ways to deal damage from attacks and this is one of the only few cards that actually does damage. I do agree with you tho. Will change the numbers a bit.

Rain of Showa:
Spot on once again once again. It used to be 5 and I can't remember when and why I changed it to 6. Will revert it,
Last edited by Autmn; 10 Jul, 2023 @ 8:20am
Zu 10 Jul, 2023 @ 8:16am 
Originally posted by Autmn:
First Pyramid:
I do have a rework design on it tho: Change Knowledge to be able to draw up to only 3 additional cards. This card becomes: gain 2 Knowledge. Knowledge can draw up to 4/5 adt cards. But considering my previous concerns Im not sure its a good idea. What's your opinion on this?
Could work. Lowering the maximum and raising the threshold means cards could give more knowledge too, and then you could have more cards that scale with knowledge.

On the other hand, drawing 10 each turn is quite special, so consider adding a keyword that's simply "Knowledge draw limit +1" or something, just so you can also put it on a common relic or a 2-coster that exhausts.
Idk about you, but it always felt weird that footwork is the only silent card that gives dex.

Originally posted by Autmn:
Flower of Edo:
The in-characterness of this card is to imitate the fire getting stronger as the time goes on. I do like your design very much but it goes against the lore behind the card by a little bit. I might change it into when you draw it increase dmg but when you play it decrease dmg? This way if you rewind it will still do more dmg.
Yeah, sorry, I've virtually forgotten all of the lore. Does it really need to be aoe though? Like, blizzard could actually be more viable if they changed the flavor to single-target.

Originally posted by Autmn:
Masakado Crisis:
Again I am this very stubborn person that cares about the in-characterness.
I am sorry if it bothers you.
It doesn't. Flavor and source material matter too.

Originally posted by Autmn:
New Semester:
Have you considered making a mod yourself perhaps lol.
Yes, but I hated coding when I spent a year learning the basics. Maybe Java's less frustrating.
Last edited by Zu; 10 Jul, 2023 @ 8:22am
Autmn  [developer] 10 Jul, 2023 @ 8:58am 
Reading Scroll:
There is actually some slight difference between the two. The major one being reading scroll only benefit from dex once unlike dodge and roll or halt. There are also some things associated with frail and rounding, which I wont ramble about. But for clarity I will leave it as it is. Not because I care about those who cant do addition lol.

Returning Bridge:
"My solution would be a nerf to 12 damage but the boss just needs to die in 2(3) turns."
That is an excellent suggestion! And the reason why I use the word Reincarnation is because the full name of the spell card is Reincarnation "Returning Bridge". I will try to make it more concise. Also the ritual dagger effect, it was initially intended but every time I save and load the card losts all bonus damage for some weird reason and I cant figure out why so I eventually gave up and resorted to this.

Revision:
Reasonable and will make that change.

Scroll Slash & Storm:
This is my solution (sort of) to History being the only thing that does damage. I will keep on experimenting.

Stacked Workload:
That is a very reasonable suggestion. However, the in-characterness (yeah once again this stupid author cares about this in-characterness) of this card is that Keine will stack her works and do them on a full moon where she has all the energy. This card imitates her feeling tired while not in full moon and refreshed in full moon. I will try to come up with a solution.


Stream of History:
That is very reasonable and I will try to make it work.

Time Flies:
Fair. I thought of deleting after 0.2.0 it since it does similar things to Intellect. But your suggestion is fair enough.

Total Purification:
One of reasons this card exists to make infinity a lot easier. (And my testing)

Unofficial History:
Will revert it to gain 2 History and 2/1 weak

Wheel of Time:
To my defense, leap is a common card and shrug has more consistent draw that this, which is also a common card. This is only better than shrug if you are in the form. However, it is very cool to setup the double Wheel of Time infinity. You just need to reduce them to 0 cost with Gods Realm and have your draw pile have only one card remaining before playing one. You dont even need to exhaust your deck.


And once again, I cannot express enough how much appreciated I am to your dedication. I truly wish you well, whatever you are doing.
Zu 10 Jul, 2023 @ 10:33am 
Originally posted by Autmn:
Also the ritual dagger effect, it was initially intended but every time I save and load the card lost all bonus damage for some weird reason and I cant figure out why so I eventually gave up and resorted to this.
Did this happen early in testing or when other effects might've conflicted with it? You could try making Bridge a skill that gives you the Reincarnation attack. Gives you more text space and might solve the ritual dagger problem.

Originally posted by Autmn:
Stacked Workload:
Keine will stack her work and do it on a full moon where she has all the energy.
Right. Well, it's probably fine if you put Fatigue/Refreshed in discard to slow down both.

Originally posted by Autmn:
Wheel of Time:
To my defense, leap is a common card and shrug has more consistent draw that this, which is also a common card.
That's not quite how it works.

There are a few cases where rare cards are clearly overtuned but still not strictly better than comparable commons or uncommons. The same applies to common vs uncommon.
(Think about immolate/whirlwind/cleave or die³/all-out attack/dagger spray.)

When comparing characters/classes, you sometimes find a card that's oddly better or worse than it would be elsewhere because the class it belongs to has different interactions with it or might have certain shortcomings to compensate.
(Like how terror is fine for silent because she can't stack strength.)
Then again, it's kinda comical how much worse leap is than shrug, so whatever.

Disclaimer: I wouldn't actually mind if wheel stayed at 9, lmao.

Originally posted by Autmn:
And once again, I cannot express enough how much appreciated I am to your dedication. I truly wish you well, whatever you are doing.
Thank you for the kind words.
Don't praise me too much though. I've always found creative work entertaining. That's why you started modding too, right? You have a cool idea so you try to make it a reality.

PS: Remember to run at your pace. Your mod, your rules. Wanna keep something OP? Do it. Can't be bothered to keep up with my walls of text? Do it later (or never, lmao).
Zu 16 Jul, 2023 @ 11:53am 
Brilliant patch notes. Wisdom is cleverly handled. Some misc stuff:

Crimson Night:
Forgot haku line. Not that it needs one, honestly.

History of Untrodden:
Tooltip has no icon when you mouse over yourself.

Penetrating Gaze:
Intent is checked after damage is dealt, so if you bring a slime to half health, down a birb, or hit writhing mass, you get an unexpected result. Not sure if intentional.

Wisdom phrasing:
You'll see what I mean.
Raises Knowledge's draw
limit. Wisdom over 3
becomes Knowledge.
Autmn  [developer] 16 Jul, 2023 @ 5:31pm 
Thanks!

Crimson Night:
Yeah it's meant to be like that. Also fixed a bug associated with it.

History of Untrodden:
Apparently the icon was pushed outside the tooltip because the title was too long. Should be fixed. It was quite funny when I realized what happened.

Penetrating Gaze:
Is now reworked as a skill: 1 cost apply 2/3 vul, if intent is attack again 1 Knowledge. Is even more fitting this way because a gaze is not supposed to do damage (I guess?).

Wisdom phrasing:
Yeah that is much better than the amalgamation of words I put together.
Autmn  [developer] 16 Jul, 2023 @ 6:56pm 
Oh shoot I see what you mean with Crimson Night. I accidentally added the color change thing. It will be removed in the next update
Zu 28 Jul, 2023 @ 5:51pm 
Well, I felt like reaching A20 for once.

2 deaths against act 2 slavers.
2 victories that skipped act 4.

That's a pretty high win rate without extensive practice. What I noticed is that it was rather easy to stack history and finish fights quickly, even without wisdom.
The band-aid solution would be to make it decay by 40%, but I suspect the true culprit is that 3 commons are good at stacking history. Consistency matters, so try swapping some rarities.
Autmn  [developer] 29 Jul, 2023 @ 6:32am 
Thanks for your dedication again! I have made some changes to these cards and some others as well. The next update will probably come a bit later since there are some other design I am trying to test around regarding Rewind.
Last edited by Autmn; 29 Jul, 2023 @ 6:32am
< >
Showing 1-15 of 19 comments
Per page: 1530 50