this character is too hard to get close too. with the amount of projectiles that just dont let you do anything if you dont have a teleport is really annoying. and when you finally get close after losing most of your hp by tanking A WALL of projectiles and landing 1 hit she just starts zooming to the other side of the map mid getting comboed, or just attacking you when you stun her is kinda unfun to play against. still it would be fine if that was a one time thing that goes on cooldown. but no even if you predict what she does and counter that she can do it again... making it impossible to get any significal dmg in before she escapes your stun mostly by stuning you and combing you for attacking her.
my secound complaint is about black hole.
the move is fine overall in my opinion except that it canot be punished. taking away from the fun of predicting moves and having to play safe. if it just had a little start up that actually lets you cancel it and reward you for it maybe a stun? if it gets interupted that makes you lose a lot of hp without a free way to get out of it. would make fighting this character actually somehow fun.
last thing isnt as big of a problem.
the projectiles need to have a lot longer endlag soo when you throw that big attack that shots a hundred bullets you shouldnt be able to use a giant bomber plane before the other bullets even get close to enemy. it makes it a little impossible to play against as a slower characters that doesnt have a lot of teleport moves.

that will be all from me also theres definitly like 1000 grama errors here because i wrote this at like 4 am and i can bearly see the keyboard soo hope this helped.

Originally posted by Th3_Bob:

this character is too hard to get close too. with the amount of projectiles that just dont let you do anything if you dont have a teleport is really annoying. and when you finally get close after losing most of your hp by tanking A WALL of projectiles and landing 1 hit she just starts zooming to the other side of the map mid getting comboed, or just attacking you when you stun her is kinda unfun to play against. still it would be fine if that was a one time thing that goes on cooldown. but no even if you predict what she does and counter that she can do it again... making it impossible to get any significal dmg in before she escapes your stun mostly by stuning you and combing you for attacking her.
my secound complaint is about black hole.
the move is fine overall in my opinion except that it canot be punished. taking away from the fun of predicting moves and having to play safe. if it just had a little start up that actually lets you cancel it and reward you for it maybe a stun? if it gets interupted that makes you lose a lot of hp without a free way to get out of it. would make fighting this character actually somehow fun.
last thing isnt as big of a problem.
the projectiles need to have a lot longer endlag soo when you throw that big attack that shots a hundred bullets you shouldnt be able to use a giant bomber plane before the other bullets even get close to enemy. it makes it a little impossible to play against as a slower characters that doesnt have a lot of teleport moves.

that will be all from me also theres definitly like 1000 grama errors here because i wrote this at like 4 am and i can bearly see the keyboard soo hope this helped.

Ah, yes, she's had a lot of testing beforehand and I've come across a lot of this before, here's my thoughts on this.

She is difficult to approach once she gets her stuff going, but her round start is rather weak, and a lot of it is balanced around her moves being extremely slow. I do know you said that she could use more endlag, but in a lot of testing, her lag is actually very high and punishable for someone playing aggressively, which she is not very good at dealing with. While she is definitely able to set up a lot and do a lot of damage for someone backing off and giving her space, she struggles once you start pushing more into her. I disagree with her hurtstate options being very good, as a lot of them can be covered at once with most attacks from a lot of characters, at least from my experience balancing against vanilla.

I do agree that Black Hole feels unpunishable. I felt like it might not need it being a level 9 super and all, but considering just how strong it can be with the right positioning, I might consider giving it much more recovery at the end so someone fully avoiding her attacks gets a rewarding punish. I might not make its startup as punishable since I feel like it's a nice reward for getting 9 meter and taking that away could be frustrating for LOV, especially since she wants to hit it after you're in stun, so it might not even matter that much if I gave her vulnerability at the start.

Once again about the endlag, she's focused around being very slow but being able to set up a lot like that, her bomber is strong but her moves are very slow and susceptible to running up to her and attacking. Especially the summons- you can actually attack summons pretty safely and easily, even the bomber, and that can help you catch her starting up a move while also helping you get closer.

I'll take a look around it all, but I wanted a character who felt like she was throwing a lot at you but you're able to dance between her options and avoid it- I thought it'd look cool. I know some stuff can feel unavoidable when mixed together, but overall, I think her moveset is fairly punishable by being aggressive enough. Stuff like her counter can be good, but because she is very slow in melee, even her fastest attacks are very slow and punishable, and moving around and faking her out leaves her open enough I feel. If you disagree, I'd like to hear what moves you find especially worth talking about in her kit.

Thanks for writing,
-VHS

Honestly I think the lack of burst is painful. I know why you didn't give it to her but her hurtstate moves aren't the best at breaking combos so 9 times out of 10 all she has going for her is DI. I guess that's kinda the point but still.

as far as the in-combo moves, i've had a lot of time to think about it.

personally, i like it, and she's designed around them; i don't want to see them go, but i think they need to be limited. in like, literally any way.

the biggest fundamental problem with it compared to something like DI or Burst is that she just doesn't follow those same rules. What happens when you misread DI or Burst? your combo ends. That's it. With her in-combo options, she has the potential to not just escape if you don't read her and check her options every single turn during your advantage state, but she also has the capacity to immediately punish you and start a combo of her own instead.

Burst is, at most, an equalizer that you MIGHT be able to get a cheeky combo out of if you're lucky or have demonic levels of foresight. in any normal case, the most you will ever get out of landing Burst is out of the combo you're stuck in. It's an easy combo escape that's tied to a heavily limited resource.

LO-V's design with the in-combo moves means she effectively completely circumvents not just the combo dynamic, but the entire risk/reward dynamic of the game. When you hit the enemy, you should be able to combo them without worry. That should be your reward. But your reward state vs LO-V is just another layer of guesswork where a single wrong guess completely flips the table on you. At this point I honestly don't care about the lack of burst, or how inconsistent the combo moves are. If your character can use one move and go from being combo'd to starting a combo of their own, with zero resource cost, that is busted. Not only does she circumvent the cost, but her risk/reward dynamic is disgustingly skewed in her favor.

They need a limit of literally any kind. I've extended the olive branch that they reset combo scaling so a LO-V who spams them poorly gets killed faster in the past, but she doesn't deserve the chance to do that every single turn. She needs a burst-esque resource to limit their usage

Originally posted by 8ball:

as far as the in-combo moves, i've had a lot of time to think about it.

personally, i like it, and she's designed around them; i don't want to see them go, but i think they need to be limited. in like, literally any way.

the biggest fundamental problem with it compared to something like DI or Burst is that she just doesn't follow those same rules. What happens when you misread DI or Burst? your combo ends. That's it. With her in-combo options, she has the potential to not just escape if you don't read her and check her options every single turn during your advantage state, but she also has the capacity to immediately punish you and start a combo of her own instead.

Burst is, at most, an equalizer that you MIGHT be able to get a cheeky combo out of if you're lucky or have demonic levels of foresight. in any normal case, the most you will ever get out of landing Burst is out of the combo you're stuck in. It's an easy combo escape that's tied to a heavily limited resource.

LO-V's design with the in-combo moves means she effectively completely circumvents not just the combo dynamic, but the entire risk/reward dynamic of the game. When you hit the enemy, you should be able to combo them without worry. That should be your reward. But your reward state vs LO-V is just another layer of guesswork where a single wrong guess completely flips the table on you. At this point I honestly don't care about the lack of burst, or how inconsistent the combo moves are. If your character can use one move and go from being combo'd to starting a combo of their own, with zero resource cost, that is busted. Not only does she circumvent the cost, but her risk/reward dynamic is disgustingly skewed in her favor.

They need a limit of literally any kind. I've extended the olive branch that they reset combo scaling so a LO-V who spams them poorly gets killed faster in the past, but she doesn't deserve the chance to do that every single turn. She needs a burst-esque resource to limit their usage

Completely disagree.
The mid-combo moves are near useless.
Any good character doesn't have a single attack they soley rely on to combo so red card has limited use not to mention giving sadness. As for the attacks, one is pretty much useless while the other is pretty tame.
Talking about noose cutter and gravity drive, both can be simply be rendered worthless by trying not to instantly follow up your hit with another move and just moving into LO-V's face. At that point the person comboing is close enough that pretty much any attack will hit no matter what LO-V does.
Now both gravity drive and noose cutter are good for countering infinite (infinite until a certain condition is met) hitstun attack such as Ninja's air kick and stickybomb, but firstly: at that point you are too far away for noose cutter to punish the opponent, and second combos that rely on that amount of hitstun are rare. Both noose cutter and gravity drive don't really have enough initial velocity to dodge any attacks, and by the time they are any use it is towards the end of the combo when the damage has mostly already been done. Out of the two gravity drive is way better at dodging and tight corset usually doesn't get the opportunity to get a hit on the opponent in those situations, so mine as well just use gravity drive to get out to lessen the chances of something going wrong and then if you want to use tight corset.
As for world ignition, when it comes to countering attacks it can in rare cases counter an attack, but a person can easily check if it does and react accordingly. When it comes to its main functionality it acts as a decent tool for restricting the opponents options, but in most cases all it does is make the opponent have to be slightly more creative in how they combo. The most likely situation in which it ends the combo is when it hits a a few frames after the opponents attack is finished. If it is 3 or below frames then they just parry it and from there its usefulness is highly limited. If it is 4 frames or slightly above they are forced to either block or dodge in which case most likely ends the combo. Also world ignition can only be used once per combo so if the opponent manages to maintain the combo through the entire duration of world ignition they no longer have to worry about the move for the rest of the combo.

If anything I think the mid-combo attacks should be buffed or reworked, and when I say that I am seriously suggesting it. Obviously if they are buffed it needs to be really carefully because they could easily become broken. And in the case a nerf is needed to keep any buffs in check a resource system would not be a bad option.

fair. i probably said all that when she was in a different balance state and im dubious on if i'd even really been playing the game at the time i wrote it.