Rivals of Aether

Rivals of Aether

Sonic the Hedgehog
This topic has been locked
Balance changes
This sonic is good, but he needs a few buffs to make him much better without making him game-breaking.

For starter's, his specials should not clash as often as they do. One instance I've seen often with this is that with KASU HEARTS' Mario character that Mario always ends up with priority over sonic, especially on clashes (this includes Mario's Side-Special clashing with homing attack, Up-Special clashing with Sonic's Down Special and so on.) Sonic should have much more priority over characters when clashing with them in an effort to capture his speed.

His F-Special is almost unusable if your opponent is playing the game, both hitting the enemy, and missing the attack puts you in end-lag which makes no sense as its his boost/spin-dash powered attack, I believe with no boost this behavior is somewhat understandable.
My thoughts on how to help Sonic in this area is changing how it functions with boost.
As the boost meter builds up, this move should have less startup frames, become cancellable after landing it, and have less end-lag on missing and hitting the attack, as well as it doing more damage.
Without any boost meter, even if fully charged the move will do less damage and have a decent amount of end-lag as it does currently.

The next thing I'd like to talk about is his Up-Special.. This move is unbearable to use, and most likely the most important thing that needs a buff. When using this move off-stage, if your opponent touches the ring before you (most likely while they are edge guarding you) you end up dying every time. It is probably the worst move in his kit, which definitely sucks because its his only option of recovery when off-stage. Another problem with the Rainbow Ring is that when hitting an opponent into it, or when an opponent interacts with it (while it still being owned by you) is that the hit-stun is not nearly long enough for you to be able to make use of it, the opponent can attack or use their options again almost instantly after being hit by it.
The fixes I've thought of to these problems could be to give the rainbow ring at least two uses instead of just one so even if your opponent uses the ring before you, you are still able to recover.
The next fix is to give the attack more hit-stun when hitting an opponent into it or when they are injured by your Rainbow Ring.

The last thing I'd like to talk about is reworking enhancing his boost meter and its buffs so that the gain of it is either much faster or makes it more worthwhile
Example for enhancing it: Make the meter be gained much faster from landing attacks, specials, and doing air tricks.
As it stands, even if you do air tricks every two to three hit combo, you are unable to raise the meter to 100%, this happens even when not being attacked by your enemy as the meter does not stay in place unless you string one incredibly long combo together (It starts to decrease immediately after, even if you get hits) The meter should not be drained so much if you are attacked while trying to gain it, this leaves it being impossible to do so.
Once this boost meter is finally filled, it should allow some of his attacks to come out faster (Ex. Homing Attack, and Forward-Special) and with less end-lag than before allowing for better and/or easier combos with this character.

An example of reworking the meter: Make the meter a passive system that you gain the same way, but instead of applying the buffs once its filled, apply smaller versions of this big buff depending on how much of the meter is currently filled, allowing faster movement speed, letting him jog or run without needing to start with the slow walk. Currently, the way Sonic runs, via starting off slow and going fast sadly makes him a slow character to use.
With this rework, it would probably be better to let the meter decrease less from getting hit as mentioned above, though not making it too much easier to gain meter as you've already got more passive speed and less end-lag.

Apologies for this incredibly long text, but I am very passionate about this character and I see just how much fun he can be given proper adjustments. I hope you can understand.
< >
Showing 1-13 of 13 comments
Bar-Kun  [developer] 11 Oct, 2023 @ 7:05am 
alright, i suppose i should reply to your points, but as a general i'll say a lot of it is by design
sonic isn't supposed to be easy to use, he has tools that on the surface/out of context are really weak but when strung together he can become an absolute menace

clashing
as sonic is actually a fast character once you get a bit of speed going, and has a pretty respectable range for a non-swordie, so he needs some weakness to be able to be hit in general, for instance, having smaller hitboxes and negative disjoints, this makes it fair for the person fighting against the sonic

f-special
it is definitely a usable move, one of his reliable combo extenders/starters actually (at least if we are looking at the uncharged version), missing the attack does punish you pretty greatly, especially if you are close to the ground, that is because of the nature of the attack, being able to send you to the other side of the stage with even without charging
now, i do wonder if you tried getting a running start with it, or wavelanding and then using the attack, as this move similarly to f-air actively use his speed going into the move and are heavily affected by that factor.
on top of that, the uncharged version is jump cancelable, which is where the combo potency come from, i suggest using the charged version like a falcon punch rather than an approach tool

u-special
have you tried to fast fall into it? f-special into it? d-special into it? enemies can use it against you but you can use that fact against them back
they try to jump into the ring to gimp your recovery? try stalling with n-special, air dodge, maybe try to hit them with a move of your own like d-air and trick to get extra height off of them
as for the hitstun, i can look into it, but from my experience it's more than enough time to close the gap

boost mode mechanic
you aren't supposed to do 2-3 hits and trick, you are supposed to stay in and string a big combo, just like you would want to bounce on enemies without touching the ground in a sonic game, the big reward comes from putting the effort to doing a long string and a trick to end it off for a huge boost in... boost
either way i do agree that boost mode is too hard to get, but it's also difficult to tweak, i simply need more feedback from more people on how long they can do their combos and work accordingly
i also can consider doing the faster endlags thing but don't count on it, him getting much faster acceleration already makes him a menace, but i'm also not interested in reworking the system and would rather keep it as is, as it being on or off simplifies the mechanic and makes it easier for everyone playing to understand how fast sonic can get

don't worry about the long text, but i simply disagree with some of the points and i think the character clicks when you grind him out and explore his options, because his acceleration is his most valuable resource and the actual baseline of the character, boost mode just makes that baseline stronger
TheMadKat 17 Oct, 2023 @ 7:43pm 
I have one thing to add about uspecial specifically: projectiles make it almost completely useless. I've played against my brother a few times and he's figured out that hitting the ring with a projectile to trigger the "switching sides" animation makes sonic fall straight through reliably (plus sonic has the projectile itself to worry about too). There's really not much sonic can do about it either unless he's playing against someone whose projectiles can't reach below the stage.
Bar-Kun  [developer] 20 Oct, 2023 @ 3:30pm 
tbh the ring was kinda desgined in a way that it has similar weaknesses to kragg's pillar, except being a smaller target to hit and it doesn't actually get destroyed

in that sense i think it's a pretty fair trade, especially if you can get massive height out of it, on top of using it as a combo/kill tool
Darkboy 30 Oct, 2023 @ 9:44am 
I'm personally a more casual player, and my combos tend to average at around 3-5 attacks, although this is mainly against CPUs. Haven't had much online play with him. So far I've only gotten a single boost against more competent CPUs, otherwise I'm not good at keeping the momentum to go combo crazy. I love this Sonic, but boost generally is a literal non-mechanic in most of my fights because I can't fight the boost drain hard enough to max it out
Last edited by Darkboy; 30 Oct, 2023 @ 9:46am
Penguioon 31 Oct, 2023 @ 10:56pm 
whoever in my friend group chooses sonic ends up getting three stocked no matter how many hours we put in him lmaoo please buff 🙏
Volt_ 7 Dec, 2023 @ 8:19pm 
every time I try to play this Sonic online or against high level bots I get washed too easy. This is the highest quality Sonic imo but also one of the weakest. As cool as boost and his other moves are he simply takes too much while dealing too little to win even against base roster. I agree with the main poster's ideas for buffs.
Bar-Kun  [developer] 16 Dec, 2023 @ 4:31am 
as i explained everything has a reason to be the way that it is, and if i do ANY change i will really need to see it work

believe it or not sonic IS very strong, he can cover a lot of space in a short time and can be an absolute menace when played right, but it's at the cost of not being as strong (since he relies on longer combo chains) and being hard to master

he's def designed to be a character to play as with a lot more commitment, so i'd like to ask just how much you've actually played as him and how good you are with the mechanics of both the game and sonic himself, cuz if you are really good at the game and struggling i feel like then i should start thinking on what went wrong
Volt_ 4 Jan, 2024 @ 5:21pm 
I certainly aint no pro but I just feel like minor tweaks at least wouldn’t be OD. Like maybe sonic’s down special being not hard to hit out of or his homing attack dropping against any moving opponent basically. I’ve gotten more used to him now but most of his combos still rely on (from my experience) either foward air side special or I believe it was the dash attack which can chain together for sum reason.

At a minimum I do kinda feel like the boost meter goes down just a bit too fast. I could do a decent sized combo and multiple air tricks and still struggle with the drain rate. Not trying to hate or anything.
Bar-Kun  [developer] 17 Jan, 2024 @ 1:29am 
i don't see it as hate dw
and again i am aware of the boost being too hard to get, i just need to mess with it more and maybe test it out with people that are really good with him and see how well they can gain it

on n-spec i think i probably should look more into but i'm not on sonic right now and i don't wanna keep getting pulled back into sonic

on d-spec idk what you mean, you mean just the endlag being lengthy? cuz i would say that move is more useful as a flashy combo ender or scaring people with an active hitbox

i also noticed that sonic's approach tools are mainly f-spec, f-air and dattack, it's probably fine cuz they were kinda built like that, but i can probably dabble into it too

ironically i didn't really recieve a lot of complaints about it in servers i'm more actively looking but i should probably ask around just in case when i do work on sonic
thanks for the feedback regardless if it will be done or not
foxz19913 6 Sep, 2024 @ 6:29pm 
bit of a later note but i'll put it here anyways, i was enjoying sonic until the most recent update Sep 3rd, now it's really hard to gain boost, i'll land multiple combos and barely be a quarter full, this is the only fix now, he's basically perfect besides that, that and i wasn't expecting the pratfall on the second attempt, which is a good change, i feel
Last edited by foxz19913; 6 Sep, 2024 @ 6:30pm
Spair 8 Sep, 2024 @ 11:18pm 
Hey, just kinda wanted to put my own opinion on this. me and my friends have been playing workshop and making a whole meta and sonic at first before the changes was a solid Top Tier but needed a lot of work, and i was the one doing it. After learning of the changes i was trying him out again and it just kinda feels impossible to actually get boost full when you are playing against anyone who DIs, Techs or swings back at you smartly like a human would. i haven't gotten a single boost meter filled vs my friends since the change and its really frustrating cause i can get like 6-8 hit combos but once its over and they are too far away or offstage the meter runs out and it just disappears. he can't get enough to fill a boost gauge in any real matches anymore and i just think it would be nice if either A. he got more boost off like ending with a trick or just upping how much he gets on some combos. or B. Making it so the boost meter doesn't drain so heavily after the short period after a combo since if he puts them off stage he can't really go down there and get more combos going he usually either hits dair or waits. he was honestly pretty fine before this patch as nothing felt super broken or dumb. he could gain meter well and you were rewarded for holding advantage or combos but could lose it fast for not going in or getting hit. He still has some notable flaws too. but now with the current stuff he feels like a character that can't really keep up in any notable way. his mechanic is irrelevant in matches and without it he gets steam rolled by a lot of other characters that aren't even broken.

great mod for sure, just a buff to boost would fix him up imo. or revert the boost change a decent bit
There's something weird happening with up special. it will sometime not refill after taking damage.
Bar-Kun  [developer] 3 Jan @ 3:30pm 
i literally only just realized people are talking in this thread lol

idk what "doesn't refill after taking damage" means, but right now if it gets hit and sonic hits it back it just disappears, and i made it so sonic can't just keep spamming them, so that's an intentional feature if that's what you're asking about

as for the boost meter idk i like where it is right now, it feels the most fair it ever has been

either way, i don't really plan on patching my characters anymore unless there's any real gamebreaking bugs so feel free to comment on his page about it if that's the case
< >
Showing 1-13 of 13 comments
Per page: 1530 50