Stellaris

Stellaris

RIG 4.0 2024
doctornull 27 Jun, 2024 @ 9:43pm
2024 - Drone Suggestion
I like how Arthropods does it -- a weapon category, and a drone of a complementary type (not the same weapon). I don't like the default for everyone else where you get the drone corresponding to your weapon type. You already have that weapon type, you don't need a drone of the same thing unless the numbers are bigger, so the attractive drones are only the ones with big numbers.

Also I kinda hate when I have to research small drones which don't fit in any hull section before I get medium Cruiser-compatible drones, and I don't like how those small drones seem to unlock around when I get Cruisers, but they don't fit into Cruisers, so I have sections which can't be filled.

So, here's the big suggestion:
- D-slot for drones
- H-slot for strike craft
- B-slot for bombers

D-slot drones are M-slot sized for cost and include Point Defense drones. It might be normal for a D-slot to appear on a Destroyer; drone-focused shipsets like Arthropod might put D-slots on Corvettes.

H-slot is the current normal strike craft slot size. It's what appears on ships from other mods like Attack Moons and Carrier Platforms. Leaving it mostly alone in terms of size allows your new ships to fit into other mods.

B-slot is for bombers, and might be roughly 2L in size. It's a big deal on a Battlehsip (replacing the X-slot bow), and only a few shipsets would get more than one B-slot per hull. Titans would be able to hold 2x or more B-slots.

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Drones use Energy damage. They're good against missiles, bad against Strike Craft, and tolerable against Corvettes.

Strike Craft use Kinetic damage. They're good against other Strike Craft (especially Drones & Bombers), and strong against small ships which lack PD. They ignore missiles but fight other crafts.

Bombers use Explosive damage, and get +100% per hull size (like a vanilla Space Torpedo). They're good against big ships, bad against Strike Craft, and not great against small ships with PD. Bombers are one reason you want a PD screen. Bombers ignore strike craft and ignore missiles.

(That's just the damage type of the default starter set for each type. There should be additional specialized versions of each, balanced against the slot cost.)

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Since we've got standard slot sizes for D / H / B, we can use them in different hulls to show shipset strengths.

Defense Platforms might get a 4x D section, a 2x H section, and a 1x B section -- or Bombers might be restricted to Defense Stations & Fortresses, in which case the defense platform would instead get [2D] or [1H] sections.

D-slot might be normal in a Destroyer, so it's exceptional to find one in a Corvette, or to find a few in a Cruiser.

H-slot might be normal in a Cruiser, so Arthropod putting one on a Destroyer would be unusual.

B-slot should be expensive to place on a Battleship (bow section which replaces your usual X-slot weapon), fit more nicely on a Titan (2x B core, 1x B stern) which sit behind the T-slot bow.

Hangar-focused shipsets like Arthropod might have sections that mix D and H, or H and B.

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So to sum up:
- Fewer drone types, ideally less "huge numbers" damage and more support
- Except Bombers, they should be all about the huge numbers damage
- Add some new slot types so H-slot ships can work with content from other mods (e.g. Giga)
- New hangar sizes can be mixed together on hulls, creating a larger design space.


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What do you think?
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MorallyGray  [developer] 28 Jun, 2024 @ 3:00am 
Sadly, as much as i have tried, BELIEVE ME I HAVE TRIED, creating new slot types are impossible. Thats a hard coded mechanic that only PDX can create.

Other than that, i agree with the less drones squad sizes. I feel that EVE online did drones correctly, by simply shifting power of 8 into 2 drones. I will be doing that. As for compat with other mods, thats something that new slots would have an issue with anyway. In truth, the only reason i havent been building giga compat, is because it wasnt working. However, now that i think i have solved that issue, upon release, i will be working on the compat.

At present, i kinda like how ive simulated S M L XL drones. Its more a trick than it is different slot sizes. All H slots ingame, are the same. Its just that the drones can only be placed on the ships i want. One thing will do tho, is reduce the teiring constrains in the tech, so drones are easier to obtain.
doctornull 28 Jun, 2024 @ 4:31am 
Ah that's unfortunate about the new slot types.

Which drone sizes are intended to go into each of the hulls?
MorallyGray  [developer] 28 Jun, 2024 @ 5:26am 
The shipsizes are named when you mouse over their hangers. This is MUCH easier to see when using UI overhaul. Sadly, the default UI is too small.
Daarath 28 Jun, 2024 @ 5:33am 
Paradox themselfs have tried over and over to balance drones / strike craft and make them work.. and haven't really gotten anywhere with it.

The problem is that they calculate, scale, fight, behave (strike craft ai) weirdly.
They make fleets appear stronger than they are at first but becuase strike craft need a wind up time / reach critical mass you usually lose fights early if you can't keep swarming the enemy. Drone vs. Drone combat or Drones vs. Torpedos / Rockets is like a myth, you can belive it happens, and maybe it happens but you can't really tell anway.

They don't really fight and just attach themselfs to a target and grind it down. There is no sci-fi fantasy happening. Just fancy projectiles that carry other projectiles to fight with lol. There is no squadrons, no dogfights, no bombing runs just a bunch of dots that connect with the enemy and circle them xD. In RIG you have artillery strike craft who stay out of range and you can even see them snipe at the enemys and that's cool imo.

You can maybe abuse them if you have your ships stay out of range to siege stations if they themselfs don't have any strike craft to respond with or have looong range weapons systems to blast the carriers or any other counters.

What I see aswell is having less strike craft but make it more meaningful / impactful. Ofc. it would be nice to have a drone / swarm type strike craft for some machines and arthropods but ye....

Also have to factor in lag, not only for strike craft but also in combination with missiles / torpedos / rockets. I still remeber a few years ago when I used a all missile loadouts on the machine ship set and the game got stuck for a few seconds every time my fleets engaged combat and then continued with 5-10 fps until the first attack wave was over lol.
doctornull 28 Jun, 2024 @ 5:47am 
One thing I've seen other mods do is have a drone type which stays adjacent to the mothership.

Those drones could be seen to snipe missiles (back when strike craft did that).

IMHO that would be a nice thing to do for small hulls -- make drones which reward melee skirmishing for destroyers & cruisers (and maybe some corvettes).

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In terms of long-range snipers, I agree that the long-distance snipers look cool, but I'm not sure strike craft should do that. Either the mothership is also at long range and the job should be done by artillery weapon on the mothership, or the mothership is closer than the snipers and that seems insane to me -- strike craft shouldn't hide behind their carrier.

Vanilla space torpedoes are good anti-capital weapons, but they require that your ships rush up into melee range. I'd like to see bombers which did something like that -- deliver hull-scaled damage but without risk to the carrier. And hull-scaled damage would mean PD Corvettes had a strong role in defense.
Daarath 28 Jun, 2024 @ 5:54am 
I agree on the sniping, it just looks cool and different from the usual swarm and circle done by strike craft 24/7. Bombing runs are cool and such, but I think alot of people belive it should be done like in star wars with the death star and the x-wings and y-wings blowing it up. Meaning that small strikcraft in small number should be able to blow up big ships, which is stupid imho.

It's hard to blanace, becuase it was poorly coded into the game by paradox. Maybe hope if there is ever gonna be a Stellaris 2 they get it right the 2nd time.
doctornull 28 Jun, 2024 @ 6:07am 
Heh, if I'm blowing up the Death Star with a fighter craft then the game should look like this:

https://i.imgur.com/4DrJEzJ.jpeg

Stellaris does NOT look like that.

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Anyway, things under your control:

- Reduce the number of drone types.

- Make the reduced types more complementary to other weapons, just like how missiles have been made flexible (EMP / Kinetic / long range / short range).

- Drone types are NOT tied directly to weapon types. Having plasma weapons does not guarantee plasma drones. Kinetic Artillery might want energy drones, for example, and laser shipsets might get kinetic autocannon drones.

- Everyone gets the "basic" drone types, which build off Scout Wing, and should have slightly lower numbers than the cooler specialized drones.
doctornull 28 Jun, 2024 @ 6:14am 
BTW, why I'm harping on "reduce drone types" -- when I finally have a fun war and get some research options for other weapons, my tech choices are immediately overwhelmed with 4 kinds of drone for each weapon category.

I really do want to research several different weapon techs after a war, that's what I like about this mod and its starting restrictions, but I don't want all my research points to go into redundant drones. So I'd like a smaller total number of drone types, which I can find & research as usual through war or whatever, but not a new quartet for every weapon.
Archael 30 Jun, 2024 @ 12:56am 
I would rather see more simplified version.
All strikecrafts (and torpedos, and even PD) are fit into S, M, L, T weapon slots, we could then remove G, P, H slots. Each slot would have better and more numerous weapons. Maybe drones have same stats, but its only 1 dron in S slot, but 8 drones in L slot, and 16 of them in T slot, same with torpedos but maybe with addition of increased range.
doctornull 30 Jun, 2024 @ 9:03am 
- Many shipsets have no PH slots, so researching them can be frustrating -- when I research Cruisers and technically do have a drone type, but it's only filling itself with Scout Wings. Perhaps merge most of the P and S drone techs, only leaving them separate for shipsets which have PH slots. Or just merge all the P and S drone techs.

- XH drone slots are rare, so perhaps also merge the L and X drone techs.
Daarath 30 Jun, 2024 @ 9:33am 
I mean if the problem is the tech tree bloat, then merging a few strike craft techs together could be the solution.

Like P+S sized strike craft in one tech and then the other H ones together.

Or something like unlocking a new ship size + a strike craft size. Like corvettes + scout, destroyer + S sized strike craft, cruiser and normal H slots, battleships + L sized strike crafts and so on, this way you would essentially unlock the next level of armament in terms of strike craft for your ships with them.

But probably would cause compatibility issues.
Last edited by Daarath; 30 Jun, 2024 @ 9:34am
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