AI Nodes.

Originally posted by Pekingente:

Hey,

is there any chance for future improvements on this map?
I really like the layout off the map but it feels so small compared to the current flatgrass for example...
Is there any way to improve that "issue"?

BTW: there is still some flickering of the sand/ground at the beach.

The map is the same size as gm_flatgrass, and it's not possible to make it larger due to map size limits (which is the reason we have to make stupid 3D skyboxes instead of actually making a huge area). I guess it can feel smaller since it contains both grass and water, but it's as large as the limit allows.

I can't do much about the flicker that occurs on the water edge on the beach. The source water shader seems to have trouble rendering properly and doesn't always know where the edge is supposed to be.. so it kind of flickers a bit at certain angles (usually only seen when you're up in the sky). This is more noticeable when there's an angled transition into the water, so the only way to minimize the flicker is getting rid of the beach to water transition, and making a sharp 90 degree edge into the water (like a pool).

There's also some slight underwater edge flicker sometimes, which is also caused by the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ water shader leaking the skybox through.
I spent lots and lots of hours researching that glitch, and found a "fix" for it which decreases the flicker to a minimum.
(here's how much flicker that was seen through the water surface before the fix: https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=251409256 )

Originally posted by EinheitOverwλtchSoldier:

AI Nodes.

Does gm_flatgrass even have functional AI nodes?
Seems to me that AI nodes work better in smaller spaces, and not in huge open fields like this. I think nodes have a maximum distance they can be from each other for NPCs to understand they can use them. So I can imagine hundreds of nodes would be needed on a map as large and open as this. But I'll look into it.

@mornedil Is it possible to add bouys on the water surface (to mark where the map limit is on the ocean portion) and to have a net type of texture/object for the map limit you see underwater? Also, maybe a fence type of barrier for the land side. Just an idea for any map addtions. Thank you.

@SlappyNote I see what you mean, it can be annoying to crash into invisible walls. However, making a huge fence around the map will destroy the open "feel" the map has. I have an earlier version of this map called gm_flatbuild_pb_v02 which is basically the same map, but without the "fake" surroundings to make the map look bigger than it is (so there's no surprise when reaching the map's edge).

Another way is to add in props in this map yourself to mark the edges (for example 1 huge prop in each map corner for visual reference).
If you set those props to persist, they will automatically spawn every time you load the map, so you would only need to place them once. (Hold C, right click prop, click "Persist")

To add AI nodes

add nodes

Add nodes

AI nodes are meant to make pathways, and don't work well in huge open areas. I made nodes at one point but chose not to include it in the release, because it makes AI stupid in an open map like this.

Originally posted by rocko6alex:

Originally posted by Mornedil:

Does gm_flatgrass even have functional AI nodes?
Seems to me that AI nodes work better in smaller spaces, and not in huge open fields like this. I think nodes have a maximum distance they can be from each other for NPCs to understand they can use them. So I can imagine hundreds of nodes would be needed on a map as large and open as this. But I'll look into it.

gm_Flatgrass does have AI nodes as far as I know. I'm pretty sure all of the maps that are built in with Gmod (Construct and Flatgrass) have AI nodes.

gm_flatgrass does have nodes in it, but the result is worse than having no nodes at all. The nodes on gm_flatgrass do not connect properly between each other and it makes the AI even dumber when trying to navigate towards you. It works alright for construct because it's a smaller map with more geometry for the NPC to navigate on.

Here's a short video of what the AI nodes look like in gm_flatgrass and how the NPCs use them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pq01LafmW4

The AI and AI nodes used by gmod were designed specifically for the map design of Half-Life 2, in which the player follows a linear path to progress. Thus, the AI is designed to follow the nodes very strictly, even if there are no obstacles between the player and the NPC. In the map design, the nodes are meant to be placed fairly close together.

The result in a large open environment, without any "correct" path to take, is that the NPC will most likely confusedly walk the wrong way, or walk back and forth trying to reach it's target. If you stand perfectly still, sure it will eventaully reach you. But when you're moving around with nodes in an open area, the NPC will keep calculating a new path towards you and act extremely stupid.

This page have all the detils about nodes: https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Nodegraph

If all this hasn't put anyone off from having AI nodes in a map like this.. feel free to make them! Anyone can place nodes in maps from within the game using a few basic console commands to place and connect them. At one point during the development of this map I spent around 15-20 hours placing, connecting and optimizing nodes as well as humanly possible, and while the result was better than what you see in gm_flatgrass (since i used the in-game editor to perfect the nodes), the result still was not worth uploading.

I don't know if AI nodes are added to this map by now, and if this map is still populair. But i think AI nodes are needed. It's just better

NPCs act weird on this map. i tested it with a citizen and a fast zombie. the citizen alternated between running from the zombie and checking if it was still there. for some reason, the zombie didn't notice the citizen was there until i moved the citizen close to it with a physgun. might wanna add a nodegraph (and a navmesh too!)

also, what if there was a huge underground area?

Source Engine AI wasn't designed for large open areas (half-life 2 was very linear).

TL;DR: If you want to play with AI, I would suggest doing that on a map with more pathways and structures, they're more likely to have better AI support.

I suggest watching the video above to see how AI acts when they have paths to follow in an open area. Even if they have straight line of sight to you, they'll stupidly follow the path until you get very close to them. There's not really any good solutions using AI nodes for an extremely large, flat, open area (which is why the nodes in Flatgrass are so bad too).

I will not add AI nodes, but as mentioned before, the node file is separate from the map file, so anyone can create them in-game with console commands (bind the commands to keys for easy node creation).
I did that once 5 years ago, and while the nodes connections looked really good on paper, in practice the AI basically over-uses the nodes rather than walk straight to you when they have line of sight. So this map just doesn't work well with AI nodes.

Imo, fixing the Source engine AI pathfinding with a lua-based mod would probably be the best solution, since the vanilla AI pathfinding restricts AI too harshly to their nodes.