Shadowrun: Dragonfall - Director's Cut

Shadowrun: Dragonfall - Director's Cut

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Eachna 23 Aug, 2015 @ 12:10am
Economic issues and deckers
Decking needs significantly more granularity!!!!

Edit: All discussion of "runs" here refers to the decker-only Matrix runs. These are the "Hack a Random Target" runs in the matrix, and Decking runs Frosty can send you on.

Right now, there's actually one difficulty of decking run outside of Eric's smash and grab at Organ Grinder's.

There are three maps for runs from Frosty, and those three maps plus I think one other (so, a fourth) available for "hack a random target" runs. The hack a random target maps includes one with a soycafe machine you can hack.

They all have the same difficulty target numbers. The only difference in the runs is whether the pay data is behind the Account Records/Management Files, or behind the CPU defenses.

When the hack a random target data is behind the CPU defenses, the target numbers show as the same but the data is worth significantly less nuyen than an equivalent mission for Frosty. The management and old files are worth even less, each. So, while you need to have the same skill set to hack a random target, you get less payout on fenced data (and there's no karma). EDIT: Random targets are now paying out the same as a Frosty mission. Not sure if this is a bug or intended.

The "hack a random target" locations should be easier to hack than assigned runs from Frosty (and have lower target numbers) to provide a transitional option between Eric's single decking run and Frosty's decking runs. That would help deckers finance their first cyberdeck upgrade, and the costs for two sets of storage upgrades.

That brings me to the next point...there's no parity between deckers and other classes as far as equipment costs.

Deckers, in order to be at all effective at Frosty's decking missions, "need" a Decking of 5. I've tried over 100 test runs at Decking 4 and while you can get through them, it's rather gruelling and the odds are pretty good that you'll run out of resources before you get pay data. To have a reasonable chance of succeeding while probably tripping ICE at least once, it's decking 5 with a Sony cyberdeck and 2's across the board in the Mission Item programs. This is a higher skill/cash sink than for other builds looking to do Frosty's easier missions.

A Renraku deck makes decking easier both because it has higher base stats and because you can then upgrade your Mission Item programs to 3. It costs 22,500Y. The next upgrade for deckers is the Fuchi at 35,000Y. These are just the costs for the decks. They don't take into account deckers also need three types of programs, with multiple upgrades for each type (and a smart decker will upgrade their storage space).

All characters can use cyberware so that's a wash between classes. Consumables are also equivalent between classes. Rent is the same for all builds, as is the benefit of Negotiation.

Combat characters have very little in the way of gear costs. There are +3 and +6 armor breakpoints (+6 clothing costs 7500Y) and the most expensive 5 weapon combat weapon costs 5000Y. They seem to average around 3000Y. The gear at the cheaper vendor is significantly cheaper than that (half or less).

Mages pay 12,500Y for Powerbolt II. That's the equivalent to the cyberdeck slot for Deckers.
Mages do have other spells to buy, but that's equivalent to deckers needing programs.

I'm a little fuzzy on how Chi casters work, but all their spells are cheap (under 1000Y). I think they need weapons also, so spells and weapons combined will be their cash sink.

Shamans have a slightly higher cost in that they're probably expected to buy Talismans. I don't know if they get Power Bolt or not (I've only played a Mage) but their most expensive spell is Haste III for 24000Y (requires Conjuring 4). They have plenty of cheaper spells to enjoy along the way.

I didn't see a drone vendor for riggers, but I haven't tried the rigging skill. So I'm not sure if drones are built or bought.

Eric's missions pay around 400Y each. I didn't count to confirm, but I think you get sent for your first mission for Frosty after around 10 missions for Eric. Frosty pays you 5k, and you could have around 4k from Eric, estimating about 9,000Y by the time you finish Frosty's first mission.

Combat characters can afford to upgrade their weapon and armor, at the one vendor they can use. Mages are within a few runs of Power Bolt II. Shamans too, if they get it, or they can get a solid assortment of shaman spells.

Not only can't deckers upgrade their cyberdecks, they're not even halfway there. Once they upgrade their decks, there's still three types of programs (Mission, Stash, ESP) to buy, and deck storage upgrade costs.

It seems like costs should be brought down so they have enough cash to buy the Renraku deck soon after they finish Frosty's first mission (just like casters and combat characters can buy their first upgrades). I'd drop the cost for the Renraku down to 12,500Y, just like Power Bolt II. Right now all they can afford is Mission Item and Stash programs and maybe one ESP. If they buy those (and they pretty much have to as they start with no programs), that leaves nothing (or close to nothing) for the Renraku,

At 22,500 for the Renraku and 400Y a mission, that's 56 missions before a decker can afford a better cyberdeck, *ignoring all other costs*. No other build in the game has to go through 56 missions just to upgrade their weapon slot to the first available upgrade. Mages are the closest at 31 missions for Power Bolt II, which is almost half as many mission as deckers.

Once a decker has the Renraku, it's just a few missions to max out the storage, and then they can pull in around 5000Y a decking mission with fenced data (with an upgraded Fuchi, about 8000Y a mission). Getting there involves investing 22500 for a deck, about 5000Y in Mission Item programs, probably 10,000Y in Stash programs (which is being cheap), 3-5000Y in ESP programs (ESPs are optional), and whatever the storage costs are for the Renraku. I wouldn't be surprised if a realistic cost to get geared for Frosty's decking missions is 50,000Y. It's an "all or nothing" situation right now.

I think that deckers should have to pay more than other classes, since they have special missions that pay more (including fenced data rates) than Frosty's "other" missions. But, they should have also have reasonable chance of buying the Renraku deck shortly after Frosty sends them on their first mission.

I'd also lower the target numbers in the "Hack a random target" missions to give deckers with Sony cyberdecks missions they can reasonably expect to complete with a Decking skill of 3 and Mission Item programs at 1. This would allow deckers some extra cash to buy the many programs they need, as well as keeping up with all the other expenses on their characters.

Those two changes (dropping the difficulty on the Hack a Random Target missions, and decreasing the cost of the Renraku deck) would allow deckers to progress at a similar rate to other classes, while still allowing for the large cash sinks that would absorb much of their higher profits.
Last edited by Eachna; 19 Sep, 2015 @ 2:56pm
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Showing 1-15 of 16 comments
Eachna 23 Aug, 2015 @ 12:24am 
The highest value pay data in Frosty's Decking-only missions presently pays around 1200Y a file. With approximately 1200Y for the mission fee (it can be a little more and one pays less than half that), that's usually worth about 8000Y a mission. That's more than double what other classes get paid for Frosty or Vigor's jobs for just a couple minutes jacking into the Matrix.

I'd scale it down to a base of no more than 5000Y a job, total, with data files. That means ~3800 for the six most most valuable data files, which works nicely as a base of 600 per (3600 total). As the game plays now, deckers are cash strapped and nigh incompetent in their primary role (decking) until they can get decking 5 and their Renraku deck. After they earn enough for the Fuchi (after the Renraku), there are no sinks in the game that genuinely absorb the profits (the Excalibur is a one-time expense if they even bother). They go from being "too poor" to "too rich".

As more content is added, more money sinks will be added. But, even with the higher expenses of a decker, there's no reason for them to get paid that much just for data files.

Each random/frosty decking mission has three areas with pay data files, arranged by difficulty and the value of the files.

Data File Payouts Now:

Lowest: holds 6 items worth a base of 100-200Y each.
Middle: holds 6 items worth a base of 400-500Y each and requires ICE combat to access.
Highest: holds 6 items worth about 1100-1200Y each and is on the far side of the CPU. These files will be empty unless you complete the mission requirements (on a Frosty run).

Data File Recommended Payouts:

Lowest: holds 6 items worth a base of 100Y each.
Middle: holds 6 items worth a base of 300Y each and requires ICE combat to access.
Highest: holds 6 items worth about 600Y each and is on the far side of the CPU. These files will be empty unless you complete the mission requirements (on a Frosty run).
Last edited by Eachna; 19 Sep, 2015 @ 1:46pm
Eachna 23 Aug, 2015 @ 12:52am 
Download jobs for Deckers don't pay much (500Y-700Y). Delete and Edit jobs each pay over 1000Y even before Negotiation kicks in. This makes no sense as they're equivalent jobs.
JamesB192  [developer] 23 Aug, 2015 @ 9:16am 
Street Samurai are supposed to be sinking their meganuyen into shiny new chrome.
Riggers buy (in this mod) their drones from Trevor and/or Greely.
There are 55 paydata files in the mod atm IIRC. They are the encrypted and 9 in each of 6 colors blue, green, yellow, orange red and black (ultraviolent?).
In the pnp game (2ed) there are four decks not available in this mod, as awell as (VR 2.0) an option for a matrix terminal at lower cost.

I've got to (re)read that when my brain starts up.
Silverias 4 Sep, 2015 @ 5:24am 
Hong Kong actually adds new decks and stuff. Speaking of, will there be an update or is this sticking to dragonfall? (I have both, so it works either way, but I think the upgrades to hong kong would make unlimited FAR better)
Eachna 10 Sep, 2015 @ 1:40pm 
James, tl:dr version. I'm only talking about Frosty's Matrix jobs for deckers and the "Hack a Random Target" jobs also in the Matrix.

Deckers are too poor before they get their Renraku deck. After they get the Renraku deck they're too rich. The Renraku deck is too expensive. The target difficulty numbers in the "Hack a random target" missions are too high.

* Lower the cost of the Renraku deck to no more than 12,500Y
* Lower each of the target numbers on the "Hack a Random Target" runs.
* Reduce the payout on the pay data files in both "Hack a Random Target" and Frosty decker-only hacking missions.
* "Download" Hacking jobs should have around the same mission fee as "Delete" and "Edit" jobs. Right now Download runs pay about half of the other two and all three jobs are equally difficult.

If you do this, deckers will not be "too poor" and then "too rich", they'll be able to get their Renraku deck when they should have it, and they will have a smooth progression of difficulties for decking runs.

Last edited by Eachna; 19 Sep, 2015 @ 4:12pm
Oberst_Maler 6 Apr, 2016 @ 9:39am 
Deckers chance to get shoot is less, the extra paydata is a lovely way to make money and the numbers are from the rule book which is ShadowRun. Its up to you what you want to play and someone that loves to be a Decker will play a Decker and not a Sam :)
Eachna 28 Apr, 2016 @ 5:17pm 
Originally posted by Oberst_Maler:
Deckers chance to get shoot is less, the extra paydata is a lovely way to make money and the numbers are from the rule book which is ShadowRun. Its up to you what you want to play and someone that loves to be a Decker will play a Decker and not a Sam :)

You might want to take the time to read what I wrote, rather than just wandering by months later to just write some snarky comments.

Reading is Fundamental!
Oberst_Maler 30 Apr, 2016 @ 5:20am 
I read and this still is my reply, no hard feelings here chummer
Eachna 4 May, 2016 @ 2:53pm 
Originally posted by Oberst_Maler:
I read and this still is my reply, no hard feelings here chummer

Given your word choices and sentence structure, English is clearly not your native language. I gave you the benefit of the doubt. Ignoring you from this point on, since you're trolling.
Oberst_Maler 11 May, 2016 @ 9:19am 
enjoy... Beside the fact that you are right about me being not native and that you can ignore who you want I still stick with what I said. Everyone has the right to have his/her opinion on things no hard feelings. I wax out Bruce ;)
Hazure 26 Jan, 2017 @ 2:27pm 
I know this is necropsy, but what is needed is more low end systems to randomly jack into to get over the hump of the deck upgrade without trigering the frosty mission.....low money, low risk.
D€NIABLE A$$ET 1 Apr, 2017 @ 6:47am 
I played the UGC a few years ago and came to the same conclusion as Eachna. I got stuck and had to start over again. I started my decker as a low-budget gun-runner (pistols) and grinded for cash by shooting gangers and such (don't know who's the fixer anymore). That went on until i was able to buy a decent Deck and Software etc.
Sometimes the matrix-runs got awefully tough, given the low-level equipment, but that was cool. Jacking out the very last second before the ICE hits you, was something that i often read about but never encountered in Vanilla-game.
But still, playing a pure Decker (no combat skills) and grinding only with matrix-runs is a pain-in-the-axx.
Hazure's suggestion appeares to make sense here. Receiving upgrades for the Matrix-Attributes as a reward for runs, instead of money would also be a feasable solution to this.
JamesB192  [developer] 10 Apr, 2017 @ 5:04am 
the current implementation of the decking tests does look a bit like something from d20. I have rewriten some of the payout code to yield more money easing the concern that the decks are too expensive and will will probably introduce that with Baeowoosh. implementing the test 'properly' involves quite a few trigger unfriendly loops.
JamesB192  [developer] 18 Apr, 2017 @ 7:40pm 
https://paste.pound-python.org/show/LvQ9ivJ0G1YENGXxlRs7/ is a mockup of the test system I'm thinking of setting up for paydata and possibly eslewhere.
Oberst_Maler 25 Apr, 2017 @ 2:13pm 
James what are you aiming for as a endresult ?
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