k

So what versions of the gamemode were there exactly? I know there was one that involved picking up cash that was automatically deposited with the UFO dropping cash from a care package and the current gamemode, but the other 46, what were they like? Also do you think that any of them are fun and balanced enough to be another gamemode map? With special delivery there are a lot of variants like the ones found on doomsday, defusal, and pickup. Anyway I love the gamemode, except that people can see the exact location of team leaders, something like the ctf arrow would be better in my opinion because it's kind of hard to get around as a team leader when you have bad team support, but that's only my opinion.

@GroundCode_ - For the MVA Contest initially it was the 'picking up cores add to team score instantly - cores drop from players based on their killstreak amount, also spawn on point, also spawn from carepackage thing.' And it seemed okay; it was chaotic and somewhat team-based, but there were comprehension problems among other things.

In late January (2015) when we got the feedback from Valve - and post TF2Maps.net's 72hr contest - we thought that there might be a better way to do the gamemode. The due date for Invasion was initially set as mid-March so we had some amount of time to experiment. We thought that even if the experiments proved to be unfun that we could always jump back to the previous version's gamemode which was at least decent.

The first experiments were actually completely stripped down versions of the gamemode. We got rid of the control point and the carepackage drops and only left the killstreak things. Initially we had tried this in the very first versions of Watergate but at the time the map was also much more closed-off - so we figured that the stripped down (new) version could work as the map now was much more open. The first test had worked really well - people still recognized the map enough that they instinctually got to the main routes and had cool dynamic random battles. The second test was with mostly new players and it went pretty poorly, the map veterans were saying that the map was ruined - we assured them it was just an experiment.

At this time I wrote notes about the problems of the gamemode:

Originally posted by Egan(2/16/2015):

problems with watergate:
1. hard to tell how many cores your target has
2. no incentive to leave spawn if you personally have a lot of cores

in competitive, the medic is the highest risk, but he helps his team.
we could make a radius around the team leader of trigger

if you gave a buff to the highest ks player per team, what if one player was 11, and the other 10? the 10 would be useless.
i think it should be based off number so top numbers are better inherently.

I'll squeeze in some info here - the 'team leader' idea was floating around since the very beginning of the gamemode in August 2015 - and was in the first version - but it didn't work with existing map entities, so when we considered using a Sourcemod plugin I jumped right back onto the team leader idea.

Originally posted by Egan(2/16/2015):

Solutions:
1. Add level indicators above heads. Lvl5 gives you +60% hp. Lvl10 gives radius stacking +60% hp.
The incentive to push out would be to help your team take control of the map and areas.
The problem is this might be too confusing since it adds tons of new ♥♥♥♥.

2. Re-add the capture point.
The incentive to push out was to gain control of tower for bonus cores. This wasn't very fun to stand around, but maybe having like the tower not spawn cores but affect the drops of the ufo only would be okay. The complaint about it not winning the round necessarily could be equally applied to the flag in asteroid. The indicators could also be brought in.
The problem with this is it makes it exactly like koth, and what we tried to get away from in Player Destruction.
This also doesn't fix the problem of there being no incentive to leave spawn if you personally have a lot of cores.

3. Make the cores cumulative like headhunter mode.
The incentive to push out is that dying is not a bad thing inherently because points trade all the time, and if you do die, your teammates can back you up by picking that ♥♥♥♥ back up.

4. Deposit cores at spawn area.
0.25 delay
ontrigger - filters - testactivator
filter - math counter - subtract 1
filter -
if you dropped the cores the people killing you pick it up and register it instantly?!


5. Readd the capture point. Make team leaders outlined, team buff of radius max health

Several ideas, the headhunter (official) mode seemed liked it could be best, but was very different from what we already had. We started with Solution 1 - which required a custom sourcemod plugin - enter Wgooch.

At this point in time we tested the carepackages + the controlpoint + the team leaders. There were so many variables being toyed with at once that it was confusing to say the least.

Originally posted by Egan(3/3/2015):

In every other gamemode you were either getting kills or going after the objective, but now that getting kills is the only objective it feels like if I not getting leader kills I'm wasting my time.

I don't feel like I'm "going after the objective" by waiting for carepackage drops from the UFO.

What if only team leaders dropped cores, well team leaders and the ufo, but not regular players. the objective would be reduced from
"either kill players, or team leaders, or capture the point to have the ufo give you cores" to
"either kill team leaders or capture the point to have the ufo give you cores"

Originally posted by Egan(3/7/2015):

b6h:
With one control point and a team leader, while the team leader successfully becomes the method of advantage to attack and control the tower which is really nice, especially as the UFO is coming in - a struggle for last second control of the drop zone, I feel that with just the tower control point the crane buildings and that opposite section of map becomes near-useless to hold. Even though the UFO only comes every 60 seconds or so you still feel like it's a better idea to control the tower than to attack the leader, wherever he is. If the team leader is not attacking the control point, which is a good idea, then he feels like he's kinda wasting effort controlling a less useful part of the map.

This could be solved in a number of ways: having the dropzone objective be dynamically positioned near team leaders, having two control points - one at the tower & one at the bridge, having two control points again but having them both lock until the UFO comes back into the map.

Something else to mention, is that while the gamemode felt great with a small number of players - similar effect with each subsequent gamemode rendition might I add - with a full server the 'goal' of the map supposedly was confusing to many players. This may just have been their 15 minutes of the map with a new gamemode, like what happens in all new things.

Originally posted by Egan(4/25/2015):

ideally I'd like to keep the team leaders because they create really interesting dynamics and a change of regular pace from the rest of the game.

At the moment there are 3 objectives and that is too complex for the masses. Asteroid has the most objectives of any valve map with 2 objectives, maybe arena mode could count as 2 also.

I'd like to shed 1 objective from watergate, either the bridge or the tower control point. Maybe even having just neutral cores at both the tower and the bridge, and then the team leaders.


Variables in payload: (3 + 1)
How much time is left.
How far the payload is along the track.
How many blues are currently on the cart.
?How far your team has pushed

Variables in arena: (3)
How many players are left on each team.
How long until the point opens up.

Variables in asteroid you have to worry about: (6 + 3)
-How far the enemy is in your base - what robots they are at.
-The number of points each team has.
-Where your intel is.
-Where the enemy intel is.
-?How many points the enemy has stolen out of your vault
-?How many points your team can steal out of their vault safely
-?Which route you were going to take out of the intel room.

Variables in special delivery: (3 + 1)
Which team owns the flag
Time left on flag
Is flag on lift
?How far flag is on lift

Variables in watergate:
-The number of points a team leader drops.
-The number of points each team has.
-Where the team leader is.
-How strong the team leader is.
-When the ufo is coming back approximately.
-Which team owns the tower control point.
-If we own the area around the bridge.


If everyone dropped one point on the ground, except the team leader who dropped his killstreak on the ground.
Variables then would be:
-The number of points a team leader drops.
-The number of points each team has.
-Where the team leader is.
-How strong the team leader is.

If it was just team leaders that dropped their killstreak on the ground:
-The number of points a team leader drops.
-The number of points each team has.
-Where the team leader is.
-How strong the team leader is.


But then you could just take the lead, and then stay inside of spawn, and never lose.

The reason why we need the tower control point was there needed to be some way to easily convey that another objective exists outside of the team leaders, very clearly, to the players.

But you have to keep in mind that we added the control point and the carepackage drops to counter spawn camping, not just from people standing outside of spawn, but also people staying inside of spawn.

Just neutral and tower cores variables:
-When the ufo is coming back approximately.
-Which team owns the tower control point.
-If we own the area around the bridge.

We may remove the team leader mechanic, and also player drops. It's complicated, cause if you have spawn rooms in your map, and players are the objective, then the objective can become disabled - standing in spawn. There needs, then, to be a second objective, one that is not disabled by spawnrooms.


If everyone dropped 1 core, but that went up with every kill, like a bounty, if you enter spawn it drops outside of spawn.
Variables:
-How much you're worth.
-How much your teammates are worth.
-How many points each team has.
-When the ufo is coming back approximately.

-Which team owns the tower control point.

You wouldn't need neutral cores at mid, because you can never disable the drops from players by going into spawn. You wouldn't need a control point to focus players, and there are dynamic objectives. It also works well with what we had.

Originally posted by Egan(5/4/2015):

New idea:
Team leaders based on who has the most loot on them at the time.
Team leader is visible to both teams.
If team leader is not near teammates he is marked for death.
Team leader has a portable team dispenser.
Spys cannot be team leaders.
Team leader needs to wait for the UFO to come around to deposit his cores into.
Team leaders can see the point icons of all his teammates,
Non-Team leaders cannot see the point icons of all their teammates, just the leader.

What I don't like about this:
It puts teammates at odds with eachother, why can't I be an important spy leader?
What is the difference between a 23 & a 24? I should see all my teammates icons all the time!


Alternatively:
Team leaders on both teams' icon is visible to both teams, gets a second particle sprite of a circle to show that.
Team leader is who has the most amount of cores.
No capture point necessary to capture cores.
Timer to indicate when ufo is coming back.

Variables in new idea:
-How much you're worth.
-How much your teammates are worth.
-How much the enemy leader is worth.
-How many points each team has.
-When the ufo is coming back approximately.


I really enjoyed the team leaders, I want them back. let's do that but make it simpler.
Having a team leader based on number of cores in hand, can only see team leader outlines + # of core sprites.
Cannot see sprites of any other teammate, however team leader can see these, and only team leader (if possible).
Team leaders get the flag outline + core sprite + dispenser.

Variables players will need to worry about, then:
-The number of points you drop.
-The number of points a team leader drops.
-The number of points each team has.
-Where the team leaders are.
-When the ufo is coming back.

A rush of qoutes because they actually do a fair job of explaining what we were thinking. So it was around May of 2015 that we sought the idea of the team leaders, and from May to July it was iterative testing on which variables were best for the team leaders - which was most of the version numbers. We did also through this improve map flow, map fps, detail, recognition of theme, etc.

Originally posted by Egan(5/9/2015):

If you can view all players who have cores, it means you have a lot of objectives on screen, and that's not bad because they're all the same, but it does mean that players will spread out in general a lot more.
I look back fondly on team leaders because I liked the dynamic of having one guy who was all-powerful but visible through walls VS the people who were normal but not visible through walls.
It gave a good one-spot focus too, and this way, the players, are totally optional. Like I remember thinking "I need to go after the team leader, and other players are not worth it because the team leader is worth the most". But if you could see the sprite above their head saying like "5" as opposed to your "37" then maybe you don't want to go after them anymore, and you just wanna wait for the ufo to come by again.

the gameplay of watergate is a bit frustrating to me because it isnt like payload where your progress cant be hindered unless you dont touch the cart for a while, with pd your progress can easily be hindred by the decisions of your teammates (who potentially have never played the map before and in general suck at tf2).

Originally posted by Egan(6/17/2015):

i dont think the gamemode is perfect yet. some people mention that its frightfully annoying that you cant defend yourself while in the beam - while depositing. you can hop out of the beam, sure, but that's not enough for the pros apparently. it also doesn't help that lag compensation + trigger_push like in this case = stutters all around. I think it might be worth thinking of ways to have the deposit beam trigger stationary in parts / make it so it doesnt pull people up so hard when its stationary

cause if we had it so it doesnt let you score inbetween stationary positions that would be confusing af, and if we just turned off the beam inbetween stationary positions that feels like a waste and also probably makes it much harder to go to the tower
at least, I feel, like the map changes are good changes
gamemode so many damn variables
i feel like we're just guessing what might work

Originally posted by Egan(6/20/2015):

my problem with watergate currently is that there are two objectives, splits the focus. you can be fighting over the leader but then someone else scores beers and they win, but you were gaining ground on the leader.
maybe you can defend the beam by standing inside of it

im annoyed that the game can end while im fighting over the wrong objective (the leader). at least in gravelpit you can be fighting over the wrong area but then the round doesnt just end because you did.

idea is you could make it so only leaders can score points, but that would be very annoying if you're scoring points and then someone outside the beam becomes the leader and suddenly you're not scoring the rest of your points you have.

From June -> July it was further testing of these things, and the gamemode seemed to be getting better so I started a heavy focus on the aesthetics - animating the saucers, getting style, the new finale explosion to fit the new gamemode narrative of depositing cores into the saucer, etc.

At around August we got in contact breifly with Valve about it possibly getting ingame but we didn't find out for sure of their conclusion until mid September, during which time I grew increasingly paranoid all the work we did was for nothing which to be honest was pretty draining.

But, we did get in contact around then, and then we worked on the final versions of the gamemode as it was implemented in steps in the beta versions of TF2. There were some small updates to the map post-launch of course, with that skywalk exploit, but the overall map was mostly finished around August.

@::Egan:: Wow, that's really neat! Also thanks for taking the time to respond to my question(s), the TF2 Wiki doesn't cover a lot of this information, and it's really cool to read through different versions and the progression of the player destruction gamemode. I think I would of preferred some variance to the current player destruction, but still great work on the gamemode! And another thanks for responding in such great detail! Just one more question not related to the mechanics of player destruction, but why is there not a quickplay option for Watergate? It's such an awesome map and it would be a shame if it turned out to be played like Hydro or Degrootkeep. Is Valve waiting to release robot destruction before making the two maps be in a rotation with each other or something? (Not that robot destruction and player destruction are or are not similar, it's just the "destruction" part of the gamemode name)

@GroundCode_ - I emailed them asking if they did plan to put it in again, and they said that they were working on it. I'm not sure when it would arrive, but I guess it will at some point!

Are you gonna change the voice for the map?
Pleeeease don't change anything!
The funny voice makes it better...

Wait, why am I asking?

Juuust checking...
Just checking :/

Originally posted by GMI Cotton Nekohe:

Are you gonna change the voice for the map?
Pleeeease don't change anything!
The funny voice makes it better...

I think at this point we 95% probably won't change it. I think if we could get the announcer to do the voice it might feel 'more officialised' or something, which I think would feel good.

Another idea we had was to have Jerma985 do the voice of the announcer, which I would like a lot, and I was actually thinking of asking him, but he stopped playing TF2 like a month before Invasion came out, so I wasn't sure he'd be interested. Also it's sort of the same problem where it's not 'the official announcer', so it might feel less official. Unless Jerma could make a convincing 'official announcer impression', maybe..


About other changes, I've been looking at making some small changes, I still don't really quite enjoy exiting spawn. Sometimes I leave spawn and then realise 'wait, I wanted to go out a different door' and there's no easy way back to the other route - it's not like you exit spawn and then make a decision which direction to go, you make the decision a bit before you realise it. I don't think it would be easy to make this geometry change though.