The following are comments by [EU]DrTruman, moved to this discussion.

My only small concern is about how different classes acted in battle. Did they fight one in front the other, one next to the other (as I have chosen to represent). I have found a big lack in this sense in all my readings. Usually they say first clas formed "first line", second class second line and so on. If you watch my youtube video i have usually represented this, but it makes no sense. You end up having not a phalanx but different lines giving no cooperation one to the other, with only first line fighting, and second line beginning to fight only when first line is totally killed or routed. Not to talk about numbers: first class was formed by 80 centuries, second class 20, third class 20; but being divided in half iuniores and half seniores, in campaigns and usual battles you would see only iuniores 40+10+10 centuries, which means 6000 men in total. Then there was 4th and 5th class wit only supportive roles.

So first class makes up 2/3 of entire army, it would be nonsense to have first line longer than second and third!
So i went for the "one next to the other" option.
But yet when we read about battle of Allia (380 BC) which was fought and lost by this type of amy, we have some hints that something different from the normal phalanx. At a certain point Livius says that "erga caesa suomet ipsorum certamine in turba impedimentium fugam' which means more or less that the "first line routing fought with second line"; while in a normal phalanx there is a single line, and routs usually start from the back line.

Then, in another passage, there is a referral to a contingent of "subsidiariis" staying on the right side of the army, as reserves. Again, a phalanx does not have reserves.
So my personal interpretation is that if the army was set up in the phalanx scheme with hoplites (the majority of the infantry) playing most important role, second class and third classes, rather than being used as second or third line, which is impossible being together only half of the number of hoplites, they were placed actively according to the choices of commanders; the first and second class being somehow intermelted and forming the phalanx core, the third class being some sort of reserve (the "subsidiariis" mentioned probably) deployed to reinforce the main army.
But this is only my personal assumption and i would like to know yours.

probably since every phalanx needs protection on the sides, for how it is made, 2nd class offered this type of protection, and their equipment suggests they were used in a more loose formation, rather than shoulder against shoulder like first class hoplites. Third class probably was used on the sides too, but more on the back, as reservists to prevent easy attacks on the sides of the phalanx, which would have broken it quickly. IN this sense etruscan phalanx was an adaptation and improvement of the old greek phalanx.

And this is coherent with the political power of servian reform, which gave to first and second classes enough Centuriae to have majority of votes (which were for each Centuriae): since political representation and role in battle were closely related, and being first and second classes to sustein the main fight (with first class in central position, second class on the sides), while third class forming an infantry reserve, and 4th and fifith with only supportive role (exactely as the skirmishers adopted in same age in Iphicrates reforms'). There was some kind of balance: more political power to take decisions, more risks in the battlefield!

Oh, and i think hastati are the evoluition of the second class (after the battle of Allia and the big massacre of "first class" roman citizens they decided to put "second class" citizens in front...), principes/triarii of the first class (divided according equipment and experience or age), rorarii (again, "reservists" on the back of the triarii) third class, accensi/leves 4th and 5th class.

one thing i have noticed of your mod is that shields have a metal reinforcement: while historicaly they were reinforced only by consul Camillus who to repel gaul invasion made big reforms in equipment (iron helms, reinforced shields, different use of spears -less hoplitic more offensive-). Ancient roman/etruscan scuta were in simple plain wood and they adopted the overlapping structure (used in late republic Scuta) after meeting the samnites and having their shields easily pierced by their javelins (ancestors of pila).
And sorry but one last thing: I have noticed that the third class/reservists use few helms and no armor, could you remake them with helms (head is first target in battle and no infantry soldiers would want to go to battle withouth a helm) and some kind of chest bronze armor? We should not forget that third class was made still by rather wealthy guys (poor people were totally excluded by the army of the servian reform!) totally capable to buy some light equipment.

Ancient sources are usually very vague when it comes to the actual mechanics of formations and lines. What you say about how they formed is most likely correct, but for this mod and game at least it doesn't concern me because no matter what im stuck with units of 160 men.

In my mod the shields are Reinforced, but you must remember my mod is the Etruscans firstly and not the Romans, and secondly it is set well after the Romans would have reformed their shields. My mod is a bit archiac but it's probably set around 400-300BC.

I would prefer to keep the 3rd class the way they are, as in game terms i really need the slot for the weak spearmen, if i give them armour they will just be too good and the Etruscan league will be left without any weak basic spears. You could justify it by saying the later Etruscans were less wealthy than before, meaning the 3rd class got even poorer.

if you set etruscans around 400-300, that would be the period of wars against romans. Capture of Veius (396) first after decades of wars, then war against Tarquinia, faleri; caere, Sutrium, Nepi. In the end of 4th century Etrusci had being defeated, even if there were some later revolts. In 89bc they were given roman citizenship, and from first century bc they could be told totally romanised.
Anyway we should not forget that romans were an etruscan colony for long, ruled by etruscan kings, until revolt of 509. So surely for 5th century at least they were probably still using an etruscan style army. 4th century was the period of change, after big defeat from gauls and sack of rome (and after that they had to face an alliance of enemy tribes in nearbies); romans adopted new tactics, new shields, new weapons. But I do not know if etruscans did the same in same period to counter new roman tactics or not; for instance if they were still using oplitic formation in 4th century or not.

That would simply be too much for me to do though, in this campaign. It would require me to change the entire campaign start pos, which would make the game save game incompatible, and would mean all the other factions are now historically forward. I think the Etruscans probably did adopt some changes, but we really can't know, which is why this mod uses mainly uses the etruscan class system still. Though the Etruscan swordsman, if you read the in game description, were probably some sort of adaption, of copying the Romans, as they aren't part of the class system.

How dfferent were the Etruscans as Roman Socii do you know that?

The Etruscans were pacified by the Romans, and were turned into Socii, providing soldiers for Rome. by this time their cultural identity would have started being greatly eroded. In fact they were one of the first to be given Roman citizenship. They would have lost their more unique weaponry and armour and started to look generic italian, or actually even closer to roman than the other socii. Many people think the Romans were embarassed about the fact that the Etruscans used to rule them, and so tried to wipe out Etruscan cultural traits.

Ok thanks alot, is this true for like second punic war period or later?

Yea it is true, by the second punic war the etruscans had been socii for well over 100 years

Surely the best Etruscan mod ever made, but it's a mix of all villanovian/etruscan equipment used from the 9th to the 5th century BC. But the game takes place in the 3rd BC.
I can understand that the villanovian helmet looks cool, but no one used it after the villanovia period!
I suggest you "Etruscan Armies IX-IV century BC" by Ivo Fossati.
Already in the V / IV century the Romans and Etruscans military were almost the same. The division of I, II class etc, was created by archaelogists and historians to make it fit with romans Triarii, Princeps, Hastati. In fact the roman census for the military reorganization was introduced by Servius Tullius aka the etruscan Macstarna (see the François Tomb).

I will admit that they are archaic in this mod, but i thought it better to be historical but in the wrong period than the right period look but looking the same as the other italians. The class system seems to be more than a historians creation though, we know quite well that such ancient states would arrange their militaries according to wealth.

Hey guys I'm going to Tuscany and Liguria next week and I was wondering what is the best/most well preserved Etruscan town there to visit?

I'm from Tuscany, there are no preserved town, mainly necropolis. I suggest you to visit Volterra (there you can see also the remaining of the acropolis), Populonia, Vetulonia, Roselle, Chiusi. If you go to Florence I would suggest you to visit Fiesole, and if you have time Carmignano and Artimino in the area around. In Florence there is also a beatiful archaelogical museum. If you decide to go in northern Latium, there you should visit at least Tarquinia and Bisenzio.
For William: I appreciate a lot your mod and I agree with you, etruscan needs to be distinguish from the (italian is uncorrect) Oscan, sabellan, brutian, umbrian etc etc tribe; but I also think that a villanovian helmet is quite out of place, they were used also by romans in the archaic periods for examples and they were used before that hoplitical warfare! I would also like to ask you why did you chose to give etruscan the three disks plate armor, which is not an etruscan kind of protection?
Concerning the census, of course is correct what you said, simply because everyone had to buy his own armor, even in rome before the founding of the senatus, what I wanted to say is that the 4 different classes for the etruscans have been chosen by archaeologists and historians by archaelogical evidences, as they tried to make them fit with the roman military reforms did during the etruscan ruling period over Rome.
However keep on improving this mod because it's the best effort ever done here to give some dignity to Etruscans, and as I'm an historian from tuscany I'm really happy about it.

Can I play the faction: Etruscan League in Total War Rome II Emperor Edition? Or you have to buy an expansion pack to play this faction?

You just need to use the faction unlock mod in the description, nothing needs to be bought.

Hey sorry to up that quite a long time after the last message. I was just wondering if you had any infos about some other italic peoples : the armies of Latins and the ones of Umbrians near 340-350 BC. I'm working on a campaign mod set during the Latin War of 340, i've just finished the startpos and i've started modifying unit rosters, but there is litterally nothing on the web about this peoples' tactics and armament at this time. Also do you know if the romans already used "early" spear-armed hastati,principes and so on or if they still had an etruscan-like army?