I don't think PROS would agree with that statement as some already are practicing on this map for the next operation

Originally posted by ✪ Luna #Pray4Paris:

I don't think PROS would agree with that statement as some already are practicing on this map for the next operation

Different generation of pros.
I'm an older player and I don't believe it's viable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWs4znwyL5U

If you played in the generation of people who played De_CPL_Fire, De_CPL_Mill, De_CPL_overrun, De_CPL_Strike, De_Russka, De_Tuscan or De_Contra. You will find that FMPone goes away from the normal map layout and use creative experiments to influence his maps. Not that it's a bad thing. But Some pros practicing Santorini for an "Operation" is an oxymoron.

Think of it like this.
Do you think pros and community would favor a map with this much brush/polygonal and visual complexity with the high color and contrast?
http://i.imgur.com/GOLLCR9.jpg

Or something less visually constructive with a lower amount of contract, while maintaining some transparency on where to go. http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/37497482124571579/091FB732187C9B463B1E0869A8E066907A824876/

Either way it has a long way to go before it's perfect. As in a few years worth of work or how long it took to get a CSGO version of Cache that wasn't a port from source.

I don't believe colors really make a difference in how a map performs at all I think it could actually work out in a good way as depending on the character model darker character models such as the t on train and the british ct it could end up being a map where players are easy to be seen seperating the background from the player and I think this is a more visual appealing map something we haven't seen yet and I think it would be a great addition to cs

Obviously anyone can rant and have their own opinion. To me it's funny when a guy plays a map once or twice and wants to say its not a 'competitive map', 'rats maze', and to many corners to camp. I'm sure any mapper has heard this a thousand times before. What you should realize is this map is tested 5v5 all the time, at the higher ranks, where players are capable of adjusting. It's hard heads like yourself that don't like change. You still want to name drop maps like fire, mill, russka, etc... At a time when those were new maps, I'm sure people like yourself were saying the same kinds of things with that being said, I still hate people that use that phrase 'that being said'.

Originally posted by ham5:

Obviously anyone can rant and have their own opinion. To me it's funny when a guy plays a map once or twice and wants to say its not a 'competitive map', 'rats maze', and to many corners to camp. I'm sure any mapper has heard this a thousand times before. What you should realize is this map is tested 5v5 all the time, at the higher ranks, where players are capable of adjusting. It's hard heads like yourself that don't like change. You still want to name drop maps like fire, mill, russka, etc... At a time when those were new maps, I'm sure people like yourself were saying the same kinds of things:csgoanarchist: with that being said, I still hate people that use that phrase 'that being said'.:csgoskull:

That being said you should check out what maps are being played on CEVO right now.
Wanna know how many times I played Santorini in PuG's and Scrims? Not many times.
Nobody cares how well pros can adapt, the question is if they actually want to.
And from the way it looks for the fact it's not in the ESEA map pool and it's the least voted map on CEVO right next to empire, season, tuscan and nuke. I'm not gonna say "At the higher ranks" I'm a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ LEM and I don't need that ♥♥♥♥. At what actually matters, CEVO which is filled with LE-GE's. Very few on CEVO like to play Santorini. The numbers don't lie. I encourage that you go into the CEVO client right now, look for a PuG, an active Pug that actually has Santorini and compare it to the number of PuG's with cache, Inferno and Mirage, now join a PuG that is in standby. Vote the next map to be Santorini and see how many actually vote for it in your first, second and 3rd attempt.
Now I ask you organize 4 other players and create a scrim, Make your first map Santorini because I guarantee that will be the only time you will ever play it on CEVO outside of the divisions.

Originally posted by ✪ Luna #Pray4Paris:

I don't believe colors really make a difference in how a map performs at all I think it could actually work out in a good way as depending on the character model darker character models such as the t on train and the british ct it could end up being a map where players are easy to be seen seperating the background from the player and I think this is a more visual appealing map something we haven't seen yet and I think it would be a great addition to cs

Opinions or facts.
Would it make a great addition to casual play? Yes.
Competitive? No.
Nobody votes for it on CEVO, go in the Scrim map pool and it's not there. Go on ESEA and it's not even a consideration.
If you look on both CEVO and ESEA you will see their map pool for a competitive map falls under these 3 things.

Maps are compressed. Which means either 1 or 2 choke points to get into a bombsite with multiple alternate enterances that can only be safely entered via lurking.
Long halls and long paths to bomb sites
or short and wide paths to bomb sites.
Almost all maps have a fairly open skybox, with an Exception to Cache because FMPone doesn't like opening up his skyboxes fully. Dust2, Inferno, Nuke, Train, Mirage, Tuscan, Overpass, and Cobbblestone have full skyboxes or at least 90% full and can set up strats such as smoke fakes from opposite sites or even the 5 man banana smoke from A site.
Visual clarity. When CSGO first came out maps such as dust2 were cluttered with props and useless bits such as scaffoldings that block movement, so did nuke. And there was a hazey fog.

Color palette is important, notice how dust 2 is fairly for the most part, two toned, nuke is fairly two toned, Cobblestone is fairly two toned, overpass, you see where I'm going here?
http://i.imgur.com/GOLLCR9.jpg
not only color palette but other factors like how they blend with character models, how they blend in the map, how many props are on a site or corridor, how many corners a player could be stuffed in, how many corners a bombsite has which can delay plants and cause many ninja situations or just being unable to get the bomb plant down due to many places to hide and check.

Props and corners make a big difference, look at dust 2's bombsite A, look at Santorini Bombsite A. Look at Mirage Bombsite B, look at Santorini Bombsite B, Even Tuscan's bombsite B which has a lot of props and a lot of corners and 3 entires but only 1 actual choke point is considered a lot better and more straightforward because It's more compressed compared to Santorini in both size and visual complexity/elevation.

And let's say Pros decided to agree that this map is worthy of being in the next operation's map pool, There is already issues in the professional and Intermediate levels of play because there is mathamatics that go along with it. and one of those calculations is being able to predict where someone is holding from Site. With more optinos it makes it harder for a Terrorist to predict where the CT will be next unless the CT plays in a way which is so static and compressed where any Terrorist would be able to get a 1 Tap prefire every time. There is a Huge defenders advantage outside of giving Terrorists freedom to flank.

Originally posted by ham5:

Obviously anyone can rant and have their own opinion. To me it's funny when a guy plays a map once or twice and wants to say its not a 'competitive map', 'rats maze', and to many corners to camp. I'm sure any mapper has heard this a thousand times before. What you should realize is this map is tested 5v5 all the time, at the higher ranks, where players are capable of adjusting. It's hard heads like yourself that don't like change. You still want to name drop maps like fire, mill, russka, etc... At a time when those were new maps, I'm sure people like yourself were saying the same kinds of things:csgoanarchist: with that being said, I still hate people that use that phrase 'that being said'.:csgoskull:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5XHmxsCKe8
As stated in my previous post, read that. Also this video where I do an analysis run through should help explain more things.
1 Defensive compression to help improve offensive play
2 Map clarity/clutter
3 Skybox openness and size for pop flashes, smokes, molotovs and even rare cases grenades.
If you do not understand why this stuff is important to competitive CS, I want you to become a time traveler and go back to march 24th 2000 where CS beta 6.1 first came out and the last iteration of De_Fang made by jo bieg was made. As that was the last iteration of De_Fang and was quickly removed 2 1/2 months later. Reasons it was removed were for some of the same issues on why Santorini is having issues. (Size, learning curve, too many corridors/angles) which proves i'm not throwing out old names and being a hypocrite because we should learn from the past that history repeated itself.

And if you still do not understand why this is important I suggest you watch fodder's things 2 know episode 2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8SHD-ljN1U
This is important for the defensive compression of static CT positition types so the defenders advantage never goes over 66.6%

With every positition for a T to check there will always be a base chance of 2/3 CT favoring. But for every additional spot=+2/3 favor every time.
CT's cannot get a 100% success rate but they will always get a 2/3% success rate every time because a T assuming equal skill, and knows 2 possible spots needs to check two spots while a CT only needs to check one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeWj2D5DK_U
If this isn't convincing enough you're very delusional.

I was already very delusional, now your trying to show me fodder videos and I'm not supposed to be more delusional after that? That being said, your 'cevo comment'... I don't disagree at all, I know there are many hard heads out there. No one wants to play on a new map and get destroyed, it is understandable... Teams want a fair match, where players know everything about a map like dust2. Now with that being said when I said this map was played 5v5 a lot, I meant that players know the map well. They have played more then two games and have general timings down. They are providing good feedback to layout and visibility.

So now with all that being said, lets talk specifically about santorini, not general meta data. You mention rats maze and routes, but here I have made some overly simplified santorini layouts. http://imgur.com/a/kAcqH - Thats really all it is, don't get confused just because there are so many turns. your typical 3 routes for T's that can branch off. CT only need to play safe on their own routes to hold sites. I feel you might have been on teams pushing all the time, or roaming out mid, your going to have a bad time. Either way it's good to see people get so fired up about other maps, that being said, glhf!

edit;new url

I just can't believe I had to listen to the crap you were talking about in that video. It felt like even when you first entered the map, you wanted to see it ♥♥♥♥. What makes you an expert? Santorini has the same issues like de_fang? You gotta be kidding me. Do you even know that map or you are just throwing empty opinions? You think Santorini is that complex? Santorini has a very simple layout, hell dude I played like 4 matches on it and I know every little spot.

What about the visuals? Most of the walls are white, you must be blind not to notice anybody. IMO Santorini is great at it. And you throw up the example of the CS:GO version of Tuscan which is one of the worst in terms of visibility.

Oh, you say it's not being voted on PUGs. Wow, what a surprise, a new map not being played like well-known layouts? Your only problem is that Santorini is completely new. It takes time to realise whether or not it's competitive. Of course it has its flaws. Let the community decide and if you make a criticsm, make fair points and research what you really say. Some of your points are okay though, but if you just throw general data you won't make your critique precious.

Originally posted by daknine:

I just can't believe I had to listen to the crap you were talking about in that video. It felt like even when you first entered the map, you wanted to see it ♥♥♥♥. What makes you an expert? Santorini has the same issues like de_fang? You gotta be kidding me. Do you even know that map or you are just throwing empty opinions? You think Santorini is that complex? Santorini has a very simple layout, hell dude I played like 4 matches on it and I know every little spot.

What about the visuals? Most of the walls are white, you must be blind not to notice anybody. IMO Santorini is great at it. And you throw up the example of the CS:GO version of Tuscan which is one of the worst in terms of visibility.

Oh, you say it's not being voted on PUGs. Wow, what a surprise, a new map not being played like well-known layouts? Your only problem is that Santorini is completely new. It takes time to realise whether or not it's competitive. Of course it has its flaws. Let the community decide and if you make a criticsm, make fair points and research what you really say. Some of your points are okay though, but if you just throw general data you won't make your critique precious.

Alright, Next video concept.
What makes a guy on the internet with a Steam account from 2012 wrong compared to a guy who isn't completely new to steam just to prove that I am more likely an expert and not some guy who says the map sucks because the reality the map is really, really boring to play and lacks everything that is considered viable in the modern day valve map pool or the old CPL/CAL, IEM, or even ESEA standards.


0 I think people mistake what I mean by "Not a competitive map" Because people forget what competitive means.
Forget about the definition and here are the facts.
1 Valve isn't adding any more maps, they added overpass and cache, my original statement is based off the viewpoint where if they made ANOTHER operation and it included ANOTHER FMPone map, it would be unfair to the community because right now it's the lowest standard of quality that FMPone has done since DE_Crown. Why you might add? Because it's not being made for any tournaments/leagues, it's not being made to be put in the active or reserve map pool from valve. And it wasn't made with the same amount of consideration because if it was, why was season and cache overshadowing For years before CSGO even came out now answer that? Because 2 reasons. Intentions and who actually made the map/who he made it with.

3 maps listed were not originally made by FMPone, they were remade from the original creators such as Volcano, penE, and Ted.
Cache, Season and Crown ALL had pros involved in the development, were tested at lans, online tournaments and most importantly, a Pro that actually attended lans such as WCG USA 2004 finals and 38 Known placements since 2003 and that is Volcano. and he created both the Original Cache and Crown, Ted was fairly a no namer but he made a good map.

But these two people who made santorini are no namers other than FMPone.
As for visuals, Santorini is visually boring and the only reason why CT's don't stand out on blue walls or why terrorists don't stand out on white walls is because of a carpet affect, you know how you lift up a carpet and it's lighter and softer underneath the couch while it's darker and harder everywhere else?
And how is tuscan visually complex? It's a crate world compared to santorini in every factor ever since 1.6

and you learned the map in 4 matches? Good for you dude I only played like 4 matches and still haven't learned it, neither has CEVO and ESEA won't take it.

Simply put it=not made for tournaments.
Live with it.



and here is a update.

Press F3, look up the word Right.and 6 out of 7 times (now 7-8) times I say words along the lines of "As of right now, right now, not right now"

You know why I said that? Because there was a time where you couldn't throw smokes into bombsite B, and he finally opened up the bombsite skybox, I would say it should've been one of the first things that he should've done in 32 changes.
-Improved placement of navigation signage around T spawn what I mentioned in my youtube video.
-Reduced mobility within and increased commitment level of "arches" position
-Removed unneeded box at A catwalk
-FPS boost

Update: Nov 25 @ 3:50am
-Widened CT spawn (thanks WarOwl)!
-Lit up squeaky to make path more obvious
-Made CT paths more identifable using additional color
-Made garden prettier/changed floor texture for sound reasons
-Removed a pesky angle at A stairs
-Made it possible to solo-boost into Garden from mid, in order to improve flow in that area


Now check the date I posted the thread, november 5th. after 3 days of playtesting I gave an appropriate amount of feedback. and he acknowledges there are some issues that I been talking about.

I got what I asked for and proved my point.
And overall what the "Isolated competitive community" asked for as well.

here is OP and his sinage - http://imgur.com/hEKWth3

Originally posted by hamSir:

here is OP and his sinage - http://imgur.com/hEKWth3

Please for the love of god, read my previous post.
http://i.imgur.com/t25FGUz.png
And the patchnotes.
As of now, Like I said.

Please let me know how you feel the map has evolved using your thoughtful critique. Hopefully, you find it much more solid now.

I appreciate you taking the time to give your feedback.