Not the mod author obviously but I like the class and to me the trees have a shotgun/flanking/damage dealer side VS rifle/midrange in cover/support side. I made a comment in the suggestions discussion about return fire and this post made me think that the pistol should be a secondary consideration and no build should be focused on it.

Looking forward to the mod author's reply.

Hi guys, thanks for taking the time to write down your thoughts. Stuff like this helps me reflect on the current stage of design, and what direction/actions I need to take to realize the 'intended vision' (or to drastically change course).

Your design assumptions regarding the skill trees are correct. The Trooper will indeed have him choose between an 'Assault' or a 'Support' skill tree. In its current state, the skill tree still a bit of a weird Frankenstein/identity-crisis of abilities, but I'm working on rectifying it over the course of the following days.

The skill trees for the Trooper indeed has him either choose between:
- Assault: Improve his own performance in combat, simply focusing on dealing damage.
- Support: Improve the squad's survivability and combat performance through some upcoming new buffs/passives.

I'm hoping to construct the trees in such a way that you won't just select all skills on one side, and instead pick the ones most appropriate for your current squad composition. Interesting choice at every rank, instead of just sticking to a predetermined build.

The pistol is meant to be more of a back-up weapon as opposed to being a true Gunslinger. True Shot was a skill intended to be used to pick off stragglers in cover, or as a skill used to eliminate an enemy that's an obvious and direct threat to the Trooper (by combining it with Quickdraw, allowing you to fire off two guaranteed hits). It's possible that True Shot will be buffed to only consume 1 action point and not end the turn, effectively eliminating the need for Quickdraw and freeing up another skill slot for a more interesting ability (such as maybe letting Lethal Shot stay to give Troopers a passive edge over other AR/Shotgun-using classes)

Art of War was intended as a skill to encourage proper positioning and active flanking to make for a more interesting and impactful version of Lethal Shot, since the base crit of flanking an opponent plus the Art of War buff makes it a lot more likely to crit. Like all other skills, it's subject to change.

I respect what you're trying to do when you say you want the player to be able to pick skills individually on either side of the tree. However, in the Trooper's case, right now I feel like one tree is much more geared towards shotguns and the other towards rifles (which isn't a bad thing in itself), which kind of eliminates certain choices or simply makes certain skills undesirable. For example, for the shotgun using Trooper, both suppression (doesn't work with shotguns I believe?) and covering fire are not that great. The example isn't the best because I know you're planning on changing covering fire anyway but still, you get my point. You have to build the tree with that (shotty vs rifle) in mind IMO.

Also, I think having a focus in the different trees is very important, and what you're looking to do with the skills would probably be better achieved if we had Long War style trees with three skills per rank. As of right now, frankly, XCOM 2 still feels too shallow to actually require any adaptation from the player (though to be fair, I am still not far in my current modded Commander difficulty campaign). There are clearly certain ways of playing that are better, AKA using grenadiers profusely and picking off the uncovered enemies. The tactical game hasn't reached Long War levels where you need soldiers to tank, control enemies, etc.

Basically what I am saying is, you should keep the focus on a damage dealing tree vs a support-oriented tree, and maybe even consider having one be shotgun focused (flanking/crits) and one rifle focused (suppression/overwatch).

The last thing is that I'm glad to see that the pistol is supposed to be a plan B type thing with the exception of true shot. The pistol is especially redundant for a shotgun wielding Trooper, since they are both classed as short range weapons. Only advantage is if you pick up quickdraw for an extra shot, but most of the time, you're probably better off repositioning and taking a flanking shot with the shotgun.

Anyway I'm just spitballing here. Great mod and keep it up, thank you again!

yeah, I see the trees as "flanker" and "rifleman" currently. Assault and support would be a good start (column A and B doesn't quite look as good hehe).

Thanks for responding. I'd like to say that I think your buff to True Shot is a good idea, and as long as you have some sort of other limiting factor on it then it'll be decently balanced. I think, because it's a gun, a cooldown is better than a set use. That helps it be balanced between timed missions and non-timed ones. It also opens up an entirely new ability too, which is great.

I'd also say I disagree with the guy above about having a tree for shotguns and one for rifles. The shotgun and rifle tree should be the same tree, the damage one, and the other tree should be about benefitting the team at the expense of damage. Frankly, making the Trooper have a tree just for shotguns would be redundant. He'd always just be a worse Ranger.

I have a lot of experience with balancing mods so I'd like to go through your trees and give you my opinion:

-Return Fire: This is a great basic passive. It compliments both the Assault and Support playstyles.

-True Shot and Mark Target: With the buffs to True Shot I think these are both great and fit the design philosophy well. One dishes out guaranteed damage, the other benefits the team.

-Lethal Shot and Armor Padding: I'd say this is a nice trade off. Lethal Shot is arguably the best ability for fitting the design of "basic Trooper", and Armor Padding makes choosing between both difficult. Arguably Armor Padding is a bit powerful for how early you get it (maybe just +3?). The real value in it is by how good the rest of the Support tree is.

-Field Medic and Quickdraw: I feel these two are definitely the worst skills. They do follow the Assault and Support design philosophy (though each in the wrong collum) but they're just.. bland or underwhelming. You Medic is almost always going to be your Specialist, and Quickdraw will be irrelevant if you buff True Shot. I think that perhaps you could change Field Medic for a support buff for your teammates that would make taking Armor Padding worth it without being nerfed. For example, maybe an ability that does something like grants +2 moves to a team member (like a better Inspire) but stuns the Trooper for one turn. That way the Trooper is sacrificing damage to benefit the squad, and the +4 health from Armor Padding might just be what he needs to survive any attacks that come his way while he's stunned. As for Quickdraw, I'm not too sure. It would have to be about dishing out more damage, so maybe something like his guns ignore 2 points of armor.

-Suppression and Covering Fire: Covering Fire is great for a support tree. Protect teammates by shooting whenever an enemy does something. Suppression is ok but I think could be better, and it also seems to be a bit "supporty" for the Assault tree. Maybe something like a skill where the next attack has increased aim and crit. Or the next attack will cause the enemy to start burning.

-Art of War and Ever Vigilant: I think Art of War is great, though it conflicts with Steady Hands (I'll get to that). Ever Vigilant is underwhelming. It works on the Specialist because the Specialist has many options in their turn, but the Trooper is basically just "shoot gun". It's not bad, it's just he's either going to be moving or shooting, he doesn't really have other options that make Ever Vigilant situational. Maybe this could be something like passively grants nearby allies slightly increased aim and/or crit. Or a skill which disorients a single enemy for a turn or two. Or maybe a skill like War Cry on the Muton Centurian mod which buffs nearby allies in some way. Not too sure here to be honest.

-Steady Hands and Death Sentence: Death Sentence is amazing, but I think it should be changed just slightly. Rather than every enemy action it should be every enemy movement. That way it doesn't make Covering Fire irrelevant. You'd have to have both Covering Fire and Death Sentence to get it to do what it does now. Steady Hands on the other hand conflicts with Art of War. The Assault tree should be for dishing out damage, but by picking both of them you'll actually have lower damage than if you picked Art of War and Death Sentence. I'd say maybe replace Steady Hands in a way that makes it compete with Death Sentence but also fills that "basic" Trooper role. And because it's Colonel it could be quite powerful. Rather than being really complex it could be something simple, like +2 damage on attacks. Or +1 with a 33% chance the Troopers attacks will cause the enemy to start burning.

So yeah for example in these trees the Trooper fills two very different "basic" roles. The Assault can do 3-4 bonus damage, ignore 2 points of armor, and has increased crit. And can also do things like increase his aim and crit or something unique like cause his next attack to cause the enemy to start burning. Or hell, a Colonel rank could just have a flat 33% chance to instead. And the Support Trooper will be tankier and will have Covering Fire and Death Sentence and will be able to buff allies, but on average he'd have a lower DPS than the Assault Trooper because he's just so useful to everyone else.

That's just some ideas I have I guess. Boy that took me a while to write haha.

very nice and thought out post, man!

Originally posted by Pluvia:

-Field Medic and Quickdraw: I feel these two are definitely the worst skills. They do follow the Assault and Support design philosophy (though each in the wrong collum) but they're just.. bland or underwhelming. You Medic is almost always going to be your Specialist, and Quickdraw will be irrelevant if you buff True Shot. I think that perhaps you could change Field Medic for a support buff for your teammates that would make taking Armor Padding worth it without being nerfed. For example, maybe an ability that does something like grants +2 moves to a team member (like a better Inspire) but stuns the Trooper for one turn. That way the Trooper is sacrificing damage to benefit the squad, and the +4 health from Armor Padding might just be what he needs to survive any attacks that come his way while he's stunned. As for Quickdraw, I'm not too sure. It would have to be about dishing out more damage, so maybe something like his guns ignore 2 points of armor.

You hit the nail on the head for me, I loved Quick Draw but if True Strike was a 1 use action I wouldn't need it, that being said I REALLY don't like Field medic the current build we lost Quick Draw replaced with Spread Out! (Which is way supporty and should be in the support tree), I'd like to see Quick Draw back and Spread out moved to Support Tree ... (But it should be target soldier not a AoE buff it's pretty crazy if stacked with multiple troopers)

-Suppression and Covering Fire: Covering Fire is great for a support tree. Protect teammates by shooting whenever an enemy does something. Suppression is ok but I think could be better, and it also seems to be a bit "supporty" for the Assault tree. Maybe something like a skill where the next attack has increased aim and crit. Or the next attack will cause the enemy to start burning.

Honestly here I'd like to see Covering Fire in the Damage Tree, and have something like the leadership perk/PSI inspire where he can yell at a soldier to give them a move action.

Or perhaps in the damage tree a perk that adds 1-2 bullets to the gun (Would mesh with Death Sentence)

-Steady Hands and Death Sentence: Death Sentence is amazing, but I think it should be changed just slightly. Rather than every enemy action it should be every enemy movement. That way it doesn't make Covering Fire irrelevant. You'd have to have both Covering Fire and Death Sentence to get it to do what it does now. Steady Hands on the other hand conflicts with Art of War. The Assault tree should be for dishing out damage, but by picking both of them you'll actually have lower damage than if you picked Art of War and Death Sentence. I'd say maybe replace Steady Hands in a way that makes it compete with Death Sentence but also fills that "basic" Trooper role. And because it's Colonel it could be quite powerful. Rather than being really complex it could be something simple, like +2 damage on attacks. Or +1 with a 33% chance the Troopers attacks will cause the enemy to start burning.

Like the idea of changing Death Sentence since it makes Covering Fire pretty moot choice overall.

Originally posted by WrathTKL:

-Snip-

Heh I actually like how we have similar ideas. In a comment on the mod I said Spread Out should be a targeted ability, and your PSI Inspire type ability is like the one I mentioned above, where the Trooper can grant somone 2 actions but stuns himself for 1 turn in the process. Cause I mean how good would that be? Imagine giving your Ranger or Sharpshooter 2 more actions? But the trade off would be a stun and cooldown.

Originally posted by Pluvia:

Originally posted by WrathTKL:

-Snip-

Heh I actually like how we have similar ideas. In a comment on the mod I said Spread Out should be a targeted ability, and your PSI Inspire type ability is like the one I mentioned above, where the Trooper can grant somone 2 actions but stuns himself for 1 turn in the process. Cause I mean how good would that be? Imagine giving your Ranger or Sharpshooter 2 more actions? But the trade off would be a stun and cooldown.

I think I read 75% of your post I missed the 2action stun thing ... for now I did the big no-no ... I edited the class and moved "Spread Out" to support and put back in Quick Draw (Removing Field Medic all together... just didn't fit with the class in my mind.) It's either a gunner or a battlefield leader how I saw it... it was like the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ leader thing the Long War guys made only good.

Does this class do fan-fire gunner damage no ... but I love that basically every round it will do 2 shots that goes along way for me.

That was exactly the question I just asked myself. Nearly at the end of my campaign with this being the first class mod I tried. It was...okay? The class is a good filler but for anyone that got a specific squad tactic in mind, people will probably go for other classes instead.
Nonetheless, it was fun playing around with certain skills and I will keep this mod in mind for any future playthroughs, especially if and when updates make the Trooper more relevant.

I wrote down a draft for a carefully balanced infantry class but will probably never get around to actually making this mod. The first part about design strategy is especially useful, but I think you also might like some of the ability ideas. Semi-auto perk is a novel way to make this a unique and strategically interesting class that doesn't feel like a weak ranger or gunslinger.

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/workshop/filedetails/discussion/619043519/392183857619991497/

Note that shotguns are not allowed in that draft and pistols are an afterthought. Honestly shotguns are OP even for the ranger class. What this game needs is an assault rifle specialist! (Also sticking to 1 primary weapon makes balancing way easier!)