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That looks great! I'll take a closer look after 9.0 is release, but this looks like a nice compromise between size, looks, cliackability, and accuracy, bravo!
Yay thanks haha!
I'm curious to see how the Venetian area will look like. Guessing Padua is a safe bet?
It looks very nice ! Just wanted to ask about some more provinces :
The province of Modena is quite large, and there is another very important city there - Reggio. It was even in the official title of the Duke
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reggio_Emilia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Modena_and_Reggio
Reggio would also be necessary for an earlier start date.
Have you considered adding a Guastalla province in the area between Modena and Mantua that was full of small states, represented by the Guastalla tag ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guastalla
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Guastalla
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Guastalla
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Novellara_and_Bagnolo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Montechiarugolo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Mirandola
It would be lovely to have at least one more province in Romagna, splitting Imola from Forli (assuming Cesena is considered a part of Rimini due to Malatesta rule and Faenza is folded into either of the inland provinces).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forl%C3%AC
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imola
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caterina_Sforza
P.S. I know it would be too small as a province, but have you thought about representing San Marino in some way ?
Have you considered another small coastal province between Rimini and Ancona, representing either Pesaro (better IMO) or Senigallia (since both would be too much) ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesaro
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senigallia
What about adding the province and tag of Ceva between Genoa and Savoy (also representing Tenda and Incisa)? Cuneo seems large enough to lose a bit of land.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceva
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquisate_of_Ceva
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contea_di_Tenda
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquisate_of_Incisa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incisa_Scapaccino
Also, I assume Noli also represents Finale. Also, Noli should be a vassal of Genoa.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquisate_of_Finale
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finale_Ligure
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Noli
The Liguria/Genoa province is rather large compared to it's neighbouts, have you considered adding La Spezia/Sarzana (through this is much less important than my other suggestions)
It would be nice to have an independand OPM (as a Genoese and later Spanish and Savoyard vassal) and province for Monaco between Albenga and Nice. It has an interesting history, is still ruled by the same noble house of Grimaldi, and is generally very recognisible. Also, you wouldn't need to increase the size that much since Monaco was way bigger beforer 1848, also including Menton and Roquebrune
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Monaco
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Frontiere_Monaco.gif
I also asume something will happen in Venice ? Verona needs to be split into Verona, Padova and Vicenza, Belluno should be split from the north of Treviso and Pordenone should be split from Friuli since it was owned by the Habsburgs from 1282-1508. South Tyrol could also do with some splitting to create Brixen (province + bishopic tag)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Grandi_Casate_Italiane_nel_1499.png
Good eye ! I didn't even notice those 2 were missing ! Pavia seems to be large enough to create an Alessandria province, especially since the histories of the two diverge after 1707. Piacenza is also a great split off Parma since the official title of the Dukes of Parma was Duke of Parma and Piacenza (and later Guastalla) and the city was very important, even housing an university.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alessandria
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Parma
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piacenza
P.S. Magnificent work on Tuscany - I couldn't find anything to complain about (the only missing states - Cospaia and Santa Fiora were too small)
Thanks! I was planning to do Venice then go cut off. Padua has to be a safe bet
Haha thanks! Indeed, must be the richest area in 1444.
I was worried it would be too much but I will definatly reconsider. As for Lodi, it was a major enemy of Milan prior to the late 14th century, included more for an earlier start than anything.
I wanted to add Reggio but both cities are really close, and in the north-west of the current province.
Guastallo seem possible.
There isn't enough room in Romagna unfortunatly, not coastal at least.
Ceva was annexed to Savoy 1427 FYI, but it seemed smaller than province size really.
Finale could be a seperate province actually, splitting up Albenga maybe. Not 100% sure.
Noli and Genoa should have an alliance, not vassal.
I'll look at splitting Liguria.
I think Monaco will be way too small..... Even with the territory you mention.
Venice is indeed yet to come.
Province density in Lombardy can't be too much as long as they are clickable, and Alessandria and Piacenza are definitely important enough.
Indeed, but the province is divided diagonaly, as on the map at the end of my post.
It would be nice to give all those states at least some representation.
An inland Romangna split would still be possible through ?
Ceva is a strange case. Wiki claims on the same page that it was annexed in 1427 and 1531, and it exists on a quite detailed 1499 map. Even if Ceva itself was annexed, there are many other states in this area, such as Incisa, and it may be good to represent them.
A separate Finale would be nice !
I just read that Noli was in confederation with Genoa, so both an alliance and vassal work. You are right through, since an independant Noli would be more interesting and Genoa would have a lot of vassals already.
Splitting of Liguria is less important than the other changes I proposed, since the area only became important in the 19th century.
Monaco would be small, but you could enlarge it a bit to be clickable, since it has quite an interesting history.
P.S. The province is very small, but have you considered splitting Massa and Carrara ?
I think I will be adding at least one in Lombardy
I did use that source but didn’t see that in Modena, 8 think I may add that then.
I assume you mean off the papal province, if so what could be taken off.
Hmm, I’ll have a look at the Piedmontese states.
I’ll consider Monaco, I’d rather be able to add more provinces than have to cut down the number of provinces.
Way too small. The Massa and Luca provinces are as small as can go.
@JP
Looking at both yours and Draiochts Italy previews, I thought that the @M22 style map would be better for visualising things than the default province map. Note that my drawing skills are bad, and someone else may do a better job of drawing them.
Here is the current proposal ( other than Monaco, which I added myself a while ago and was too lazy too remove knowing I'll add it back, and some more changes (Lodi took a bit of Cremona since both were ridiculously thin, I'm pretty sure I didn't draw Benevento right, and I forgot to do Sicily (it's done in mine version) :P)): https://imgur.com/IKPr1Wm
Aaaaand here is my counter-proposal (note that I understand that some of the provinces I am proposing probably won't make the final cut. I am perfectly fine with that, since I know I went a bit overboard (way more than I did in the Balkans). However, (north) Italy will probably have the largest province density in the world since it fulfils all the conditions for that : high population density, great wealth, great historical importance, massive 1444 importance, being in Europe and great political fragmentation): https://imgur.com/Gz79rMh
I was too lazy to number new provinces for now (maybe I'll do it later), but here are the ones that are new compared to yours:
In Savoy, right next to the Ligurian border, we have the new province and tag (dark blue) of Incisa/Ceva - representing the small states in this area (Ceva, Incisa, Tenda). Pretty small, but those tags deserve representation.
Liguria is very rainbowish and has very small provinces, and the two added ones (other than Monaco and Noli) have low priority, since they are taken over much faster
From west to east, we have Monaco (pale red/orange, vassal of Genoa), Genoan Albenga, Finale (pale green, this small Marquisate was a Spanish enclave for a hundred years in the 17th century), Noli (red, remained independent almost until the end of the timeline), Savona (dark crimson, this province was created mostly to break up Genoa, but Savona was an independent city until 1528 and had a rivalry with Noli) and Genoa. The areas east of Genoa (La Spezia and Sarzana) weren't very developed, so I didn't want to give them a province
In south Lombardy, provinces were added for Alessandria and Piacenza. Both were very important splits - many mods with a smaller scope than BT add Alessandria and it had different history than Pavia from 1707 (it was annexed by Savoy, and it's still a part of the region of Piedmont), and Piacenza was even mentioned in the title of Dukes of Parma as an equal. Both provinces are of a decent size too. Around Lodi and Cremona, there is the city of Crema which was owned by Venice, but I think it's too small to represent.
Between the Mantua and Modena, the province of Guastalla was added to represent the many small states in this region(Guastalla, Novellara and Bagnolo, Mirandola, Montechiarugolo), owned by the new Guastalla tag (purple). Size is OK I think.
The province of Modena is also split into Modena and Reggio. Reggio was an important city, and the title of the dukes of Modena is Duke of Montena and Reggio. Both provinces are quite large. Modena was also extended a bit (taking land from Bologna) to border Ferrara, to better match historical borders, and to unite the Este domains. Modena and Reggio are now owned by the Modena tag in 1444, under personal union with Ferrara. I think that represents the situation better.
Speaking of Ferrara (cursed be the flag-stealer of Glorious Ulm), the northern part of the province was made into the separate province of Polesine, with the capital in Rovigo. This area was owned by Ferrara, but later went to Venice (while the rest of Ferrara went to the Pope), and forms a quite distinct geographical area. Size is decent, too.
Romagna. Ah Romagna. Other than already represented Ravenna, Rimini and Bologna, Romagna had 4 major cities- Imola, Faenza, Forli and Cesena. The area definitely isn't large enough to support them all, but there is plenty of space for at least one province. Forli was the most important (and should be the capital in an unified province), so since Faenza was smaller and Cesena was quite close to Rimini (and owned by the same Malatesta family), I chose Imola for the other province (also makes sense since Caterina Sforza, the closest thing to a pan-Romagnan ruler before Cesare Borgia had the title Lady of Imola and Duchess of Forli). Forli could also be owned by an papal OPM vassal (dark gold), representing the Ordelafi family. Imola could also be ruled by an papal OPM vassal, representing the Sforza rule(making them playable in 1444)
Between Rimini and Ancona, I added another province ( this stops Urbino from having sea access, which is wrong according to the maps, but since there were no major ports controlled by Urbino, I think it makes more sense). It could represent either Pesaro, Fano or Senigallia (Pesaro would be the most interesting I think, since it would start under Malatesta rule but with a revolt that would give it to the Sforza as an independent tag). This province is kinda small, but no smaller than Rimini and Ancona.
As I've already said, your Tuscany is wonderful, but there is one possible change. I've split Pisa into Pisa and Livorno. Livorno was small and unimportant at the beginning of the game, however, soon after the Medici started investing heavily in it and it quickly became one of the most important ports in Italy. It is also useful for an earlier start date, since after slipping from Pisan control in 1399, it was first owned by Milan and later by Genoa, before finally falling to Florence. Both are still comparable in size to nearby provinces.
I've considered splitting off from Viterbo either Corneto or Orvieto, but ultimately decided against it.
To the south of Rome, the province of Frosinone was also split. Frosinone was rather unimportant at the beginning of the game, with Anagni being the most important before the 15th century, and Alatri was the most important around 1444( it was independent before finally accepting the Papal rule in 1434), so the capital of the inland province should be Alatri. The coastal province represents the important city of Terracina (this split is also important for earlier start dates, due to Alatri being independent while Terracina was under the Pope).
The part of Latium under Neapolitan rule also saw a province being split off, with the inland province and vassal tag of Sora (light green) being created. All 4 provinces in south Latium are of an okay size.
The northernmost part of Abruzzo was split of as the province and the tag of Atri (yellow), representing the powerful Acquviva family. It's a pretty clickable province, and smooths the north-south transition.
The province of Capitanata saw the split into San Severo (province stil called Capitanata, the most important city in the province during the timeline), and Foggia (province name Tavoliere). Both provinces are still pretty large.
Between Foggia and Bari, there is now the province of Barletta. While it's glory days under the Hohenstaufens were over, it was still an important city, and it was a densely populated region, with the cities of Andria and Trani being very close. If it's too small, it could take some land from the annoyingly large Basilicata.
In Apulia, the large city of Brindisi got it's own province separate from Otranto/Lecce, both still being large enough. The two provinces together with Taranto are owned by the Duchy of Lecce, a Neapolitan vassal (very pale purple).
In Calabria, the important cities of Crotone and Catanzaro no longer need to share a province, having their own decently sized ones.
Sicily is mostly like Draiochts, but with Caltanisseta being an inland province, with Terranova (now Gela) having it's own province. This isn't a very important change, and not including it may be more historical, I just wanted to give Sicily an inland province.
As mentioned in the suggestions forums, the already redone Corsica and Sardinia were given a small lift. The province of Bunifaziu in the south of Corsica owned by the Cinarca tag (bright pink, Aragonese ally/vassal) was added, allowing Corsica to have it's own area (and culture as well). Sardinia on the other hand received Ogligastra in the south (capital Tortoli), which used to be a former major Giudicati before being absorbed by Cagliari, and Alghero in the north representing the presence of Catalans on Sardinia and since Alghero is the third most important city of the island (after Cagliari and Sassari).
I've also visited Venice, where the province of Verona was split into Verona, Padua and Vicenza. I'm also thinking about creating a province for Chioggia there. From the north of Treviso, the Belluno province was created representing Belluno and Feltre, and between Belluno and Friuli a province was created for the mountainous region of Cadore (capital Pieve), whose wood was used for most Venetian ships and which was a major battleground between Venice and the Habsburgs. Speaking of the devil, Austria owns new province of Pordenone (and will do so until 1514) as an enclave inside Venetian territory. Friuli was further split between Aquliea and Udine. Gorizia saw it's borders changed to better fit history, losing land to Udine but gaining some from Trieste. The rest is a part of my Balkan overhaul, but you can see Trieste as a new Habsburg vassal and the independent Fiume and Veglia in the areas close to Italy. All provinces in this region are large enough I think.
Finaly, in Tirol a small province was added for the Bishopic of Brixen. A larger overhaul of the region is yet to come through.
@JP, @Draiocht what do you think ?
I hope you read through it later, since the additional provinces I suggested vary quite a bit in size, with most being larger than many of the provinces you already included, especialy in Venice, South Italy and Lombardy. Liguria is way too much I know, and Pesaro and Ceva are also a stretch. Others are far more reasonable I think.
BTW on the Suggestions thread I posted a proposed touch up for the Basque Country region. I only say it here because of how the Steam threads work, for some reason the Suggestions thread isn't showing up on Popular Discussions. Would be cool to get feedback from you guys. Might be nice if something a small touch up of that region could be included in BT10 (Maybe potentially an Iberia update, even?).
Proper look time.
Just to clarify, the smallest *acceptable* province size is around 40 pixels, other than Benvento which is a special circumstance due to it's importance. For reference that is Frankfurt size. I have no province that is that small (bar maybe a coastal province or two which will be enlarged when it goes into game) whilst your draft has quite a few,
As for the way me and @Draiocht draft, we use GIMP and we use the outlines to make it easier to change draft etc...
My draft has fixed Lodi/Cremona already now.
Ceva and the Ligurian coasts are too small. I think I can fit another in the coast but not yet decided. I tried to move borders but it ain't gonna happen I don't think.
I've split southern Lombardy similar-ish to you.
Gustalla too small, I've split of Reggio too, I already had the Este lands connected.
I was seriously considerring Rovigo and I think I will.
I've named Forli as the capital of Romagna under the Pope (or Papal vassal), I couldn't find a good split tbh, and I don't thit it should be either. The coast was the richest bit and they are split.
All the maps I have seen show Urbino coast, only a small bit hence my draft. The coast really doesn't have enough room for another province, however much I'd love to.
Thanks on Tuscany, I'll consider that province.
I'd rather not split the Valle Latina as my (and @Dub) research suggested Frosinone as the main city throughout our time period.
I can't really talk about Naples so I'll leave that for others.
I've included your Corsica et Sardinia in mine, thanks!
Other than Pordenone, we have pretty similar drafts of Venice.
I've made Brixen a bit bigger so that province sizes match up better.
I've left Istria for now but have some different ideas for it eventually.