What about real surround with real speakers? Isn't it supposed to be better than headphones? I use real 7.1 surround set to 5.1 mode in counter strike, since counter strike does not support 7.1. It works suprisingly good together with this map. I can distinguish whether the sounds are in front or behind me and often guess the direction with about +/-10 degree accuracy. Not to mention that I use very old speakers manufactured in 2004.

Originally posted by your_breakfast:

What about real surround with real speakers? Isn't it supposed to be better than headphones? I use real 7.1 surround set to 5.1 mode in counter strike, since counter strike does not support 7.1. It works suprisingly good together with this map. I can distinguish whether the sounds are in front or behind me and often guess the direction with about +/-10 degree accuracy. Not to mention that I use very old speakers manufactured in 2004.

Please review the next quote:

Originally posted by Rabbi - Check Profile.:

To receive best results on this map and in the entire game, it is crucial that you combine the settings in the screenshot above with a proper headset/headphones.
DON'T use speakers or earbuds they wont deliver precise locations of sounds in-game.

And this:

1. That's a negative Ghost Rider.
2. Pro's with speakers? Nay.
3. If you have a mic, everyone hates listening to themselves or feedback from your speakers.

Oh I did read all that. I just don't agree with it. As I already mentioned I can determine the location of sounds pretty well with an old 5.1 surround. I tried it with this map and it actually works with a pretty good accuracy. That's some objective empirical evidence. Not to mention that it is verifiable by those who are sceptical and have the time to repeat the same experiment.

It also needs to be mentioned that headphones with or without virtual surround are never able to replace real surround in terms of realism.
Human ears are not only able to distunguish what happends left and right. They are also able to distinguish what happends in front and behind, because the frequency response of the ear depends on the direction where the sound comes from. Differnt angle of the sound source relative to the ear means different error in the spectrum of the sound. And the human brain is able to determine the location of the sound due to this error.
Virtual surround fakes this effect by adding a similar error according to some kind of an average model of the human ears. But each human being has a slightly different earshape. So there is always a deviation between the results of the virtual surround and YOUR perception of sounds in front and behind you. Thus virtual surround is unable to be as realistic as real surround.

"Pros" use all kind of different tricks to get an advantage even at the cost of realism. I saw "pros" play other games and make their wepon invisible and make pickups appear as 2D symbols. I am a regular player so I prefer realism. You also need to consider that "pros" sometimes have to sit as a team in the same room which makes the usage of surround impractical. They have to be used to headphones because of that. So the fact whether "pros" use headphones or not has nothing to do with whether headphones or real surround should be preferred when the goal is realism.

According your other points:
1. What do you mean with a negative Ghost Rider?
3. I don't use a mic.

Originally posted by your_breakfast:

Oh I did read all that. I just don't agree with it. As I already mentioned I can determine the location of sounds pretty well with an old 5.1 surround. I tried it with this map and it actually works with a pretty good accuracy. That's some objective empirical evidence. Not to mention that it is verifiable by those who are sceptical and have the time to repeat the same experiment.

It also needs to be mentioned that headphones with or without virtual surround are never able to replace real surround in terms of realism.
Human ears are not only able to distunguish what happends left and right. They are also able to distinguish what happends in front and behind, because the frequency response of the ear depends on the direction where the sound comes from. Differnt angle of the sound source relative to the ear means different error in the spectrum of the sound. And the human brain is able to determine the location of the sound due to this error.
Virtual surround fakes this effect by adding a similar error according to some kind of an average model of the human ears. But each human being has a slightly different earshape. So there is always a deviation between the results of the virtual surround and YOUR perception of sounds in front and behind you. Thus virtual surround is unable to be as realistic as real surround.

"Pros" use all kind of different tricks to get an advantage even at the cost of realism. I saw "pros" play other games and make their wepon invisible and make pickups appear as 2D symbols. I am a regular player so I prefer realism. You also need to consider that "pros" sometimes have to sit as a team in the same room which makes the usage of surround impractical. They have to be used to headphones because of that. So the fact whether "pros" use headphones or not has nothing to do with whether headphones or real surround should be preferred when the goal is realism.

According your other points:
1. What do you mean with a negative Ghost Rider?
3. I don't use a mic.

In regards to almost everything you said in your first two paragraphs Refer to this: https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=703059693

1. movie clip.
3. okay.

OK, let me point out some mistakes in your guide, which are relevant to our discussion here.


Even though you mentioned that headphones use stereo panning you sayed nothing about the case with surround. Saying that headphones are better than surround because stereo panning is better than "something I dont know/can't explain" is not a valid comparison. If you want to compare you have to explain both cases first and explain why the one is better than the other. I am not sure if this is how you tried to make an argument, but there is nothing wrong with me pointing out the fact that such way of thinking is flawed. If you didn't, then mentioning the panning contains no argument against real surround at all. Not even a wrong one.


You say that 5.1 surround without HTRF (head related transfer function, that's what I meant with the simulated frequency response in virtual surround) is a bad thing. WRONG! The whole point of surround is that you no longer need HTRF. HTRF is what simulates surround when you use headphones only or stereo speakers only. In real surround the sound already comes from the correct directions towards your ears and thus a HTRF simulation is not longer needed. Applying it to real surround would only descrease the sound quality and make it harder for the listener to find out where the sound comes from.


What do you mean with 3D information? You need to be more specific here to be convincing. If you mean that the distribution of the sound between the multiple speakers is not dependent on the location of the sound source in the game, then you are wrong. I actually tried out different angles of the sound source relative to the head direction and here is what i found out for CS:GO while using real 5.1 surround (0 degrees is the direction of the head):

At 0 degrees the sound only comes from the front center speaker.
At 45 degrees the sound only comes from the front right speaker.
At 135 degrees the sound only comes from the rear right speaker.
At 225 degrees the sound only comes from the rear left speaker.
At 315 degrees the sound only comes from the front left speaker.

Thus if I understood your statement about the missing 3D information correctly, this statement of yours is falsified. If I misunderstood you, then "3D information" (whatever that means) is no longer needed since the distribution of the sound between the 5 speakers is already optimal. If it's already optimal then there is no point in having any additional information, since there is not way to improve the surround effect any further. (And you can see from my measurement results that they are indeed optimal. In case you don't believe me that my measurements are genuine, you can repeat my experiment and you will get the same results.)


You're obviously right that the room acoustics do not affect the sound when headphones are used. But that does not automatically mean that room acoustics ALWAYS affect the sound in case of real surround. With proper precautions the negative effects of room acustics can be reduced so well, that they become negligable. The biggest problem here are soundwave reflections from the walls, the floor and the ceiling. You can reduce them with proper materials like carpets, cheap cloth and/or cotton wool. Some people even use egg boxes or bubble wrap. There are better materials availible for the purpose or reducing reflections, but they are more expensive. I achived sufficiently good results with a carpet on the floor and cheap cloth on the walls and the ceiling.


Regarding the subtle sounds and your argument that you hear them better with headphones. It's not neccessrily the case. Everything depends on the quality of the speakers and the volume. I hear the stepsounds very well even with my old speakers.


Then you say that that less bass gives better accuracy. The subwoofer can be disabled and/or equalizer with negligable processing delay can be applied. Problem solved. I like the realistic bass though, so I never disable it.


Regarding the noices outside of the game: Being somewhere where there is less noise obviously solves the problem. Solutions to shield the noise are also availible.


Regarding "Headphones are more accurate, speakers are more realistic.": Again, you need to be more specific here. What do you mean with accuracy? What do you mean with realism? It's possible to interpret those words as the same thing. In that case the statement no longer makes any sence.



Further comments about your guide:

Consideration of time difference and frequency is only relevant when you have sound sources with a very high speed, like planes flying past the player. Since there are no such sound sources in CS:GO distributing the volume of the sound between the speakers is sufficient. In case of stereo (headphones/2 speakers) this distribution is done with panning.

Processing times are usually negligible for gaming unless you get a delay of over 20 millisecnds or something like that. The only cases when you have to worry about small audio delays is realtime sound processing or when you use your computer as a musical instrument. In which case you will need a professional low-latency sound card anyway. With consumer/gaming soundcard and without ASIO-for-all (which games do not use anyway) small delays are inevitable.

Originally posted by your_breakfast:

OK, let me point out some mistakes in your guide, which are relevant to our discussion here.


Even though you mentioned that headphones use stereo panning you sayed nothing about the case with surround. Saying that headphones are better than surround because stereo panning is better than "something I dont know/can't explain" is not a valid comparison. If you want to compare you have to explain both cases first and explain why the one is better than the other. I am not sure if this is how you tried to make an argument, but there is nothing wrong with me pointing out the fact that such way of thinking is flawed. If you didn't, then mentioning the panning contains no argument against real surround at all. Not even a wrong one.


You say that 5.1 surround without HTRF (head related transfer function, that's what I meant with the simulated frequency response in virtual surround) is a bad thing. WRONG! The whole point of surround is that you no longer need HTRF. HTRF is what simulates surround when you use headphones only or stereo speakers only. In real surround the sound already comes from the correct directions towards your ears and thus a HTRF simulation is not longer needed. Applying it to real surround would only descrease the sound quality and make it harder for the listener to find out where the sound comes from.


What do you mean with 3D information? You need to be more specific here to be convincing. If you mean that the distribution of the sound between the multiple speakers is not dependent on the location of the sound source in the game, then you are wrong. I actually tried out different angles of the sound source relative to the head direction and here is what i found out for CS:GO while using real 5.1 surround (0 degrees is the direction of the head):

At 0 degrees the sound only comes from the front center speaker.
At 45 degrees the sound only comes from the front right speaker.
At 135 degrees the sound only comes from the rear right speaker.
At 225 degrees the sound only comes from the rear left speaker.
At 315 degrees the sound only comes from the front left speaker.

Thus if I understood your statement about the missing 3D information correctly, this statement of yours is falsified. If I misunderstood you, then "3D information" (whatever that means) is no longer needed since the distribution of the sound between the 5 speakers is already optimal. If it's already optimal then there is no point in having any additional information, since there is not way to improve the surround effect any further. (And you can see from my measurement results that they are indeed optimal. In case you don't believe me that my measurements are genuine, you can repeat my experiment and you will get the same results.)


You're obviously right that the room acoustics do not affect the sound when headphones are used. But that does not automatically mean that room acoustics ALWAYS affect the sound in case of real surround. With proper precautions the negative effects of room acustics can be reduced so well, that they become negligable. The biggest problem here are soundwave reflections from the walls, the floor and the ceiling. You can reduce them with proper materials like carpets, cheap cloth and/or cotton wool. Some people even use egg boxes or bubble wrap. There are better materials availible for the purpose or reducing reflections, but they are more expensive. I achived sufficiently good results with a carpet on the floor and cheap cloth on the walls and the ceiling.


Regarding the subtle sounds and your argument that you hear them better with headphones. It's not neccessrily the case. Everything depends on the quality of the speakers and the volume. I hear the stepsounds very well even with my old speakers.


Then you say that that less bass gives better accuracy. The subwoofer can be disabled and/or equalizer with negligable processing delay can be applied. Problem solved. I like the realistic bass though, so I never disable it.

Oy vey, great balls of fire! that wall of text. Alrighty let me tackle each paragraph one at a time, each number is the number paragraph you wrote, some are grouped together.

And do note, that the majority of what I said was aimed at settings for headphones. Not Speakers. Because to make speakers be like headphones is more expensive and more setup time is required. Most people I come across who are gamers use headphones, this is for them. The other people I meet who use speakers have poopy speakers and a poopy microphone, and don't know a lick of what most of your second wall of text is talking about.

1/3/3.5/4. Actually I can explain stereo panning and the 3D information. I didn't because it has been explained before many many times and you can use google. Plus it is such a minor note in my guide..... Many things one reference where also a video came from. If you still are having trouble, then let me know and I shall rephrase it for your mind.

2. "You say that 5.1 surround without HTRF (head related transfer function, that's what I meant with the simulated frequency response in virtual surround) is a bad thing. WRONG! The whole point of surround is that you no longer need HTRF." I stand corrected. I made a mistake. I should have proof-read before submitting. Frankly I was in a rush. And was coming off of Lucy with 3 days of no sleep.

5. "But that does not automatically mean that room acoustics ALWAYS affect the sound in case of real surround." Room acoutics will affect all sound 98% of the time. Realistically, no you can't take those precautions unless you have hundreds to thousands of dollars to spend. Carpet definitely does a lot, but cloth like shirts nope, unless in thick layers. Headphones create their own acoustic space via space between the cup and your ears plus the ear cannals.

6. Stepping sounds aren't subtle sounds.

7. If you have a speaker with sub control (I know a lot of people where this is a nope) and/or if the bass is able to be majorly turned down... mine won't do the latter. Oh and I have tried eggcrate galore, pillow, having it sit on styrafoam, lots and lots of quilts. I just opened the sucker up and disconnected.

Will get to rest later, work calls.

edit* Top Gun quote added.

OK. Our conversation is all about whether headphones or real surround are better, so I am just defending my opinion that surround is better (if you take your time and set it up properly of course). And just to be clear I mean real multi-speaker based surround, not that cheap heaphone based virtual surround where HRTF starts to matter.

To sum everything up so far:
Headphones are much more simple to use and do almost no feedback back into the mic. Also you don't need to wory about room acoustics and the noise from outside is less annoying. Headphones are a more cost-effective solution if you want to hear even the smallest details.
However with proper precautions that can cost a lot of your time and money real surround gives one significant advantage over panned stereo (as is the case with headphones in CS:GO) while not having all the disadvantages of virtual surround at the same time: The player has the ability to hear what is in front or behind him. And there is also more realism, because the directional frequency response of the ears (real-life-HRTF) isn't neglected.

Originally posted by your_breakfast:

OK. Our conversation is all about whether headphones or real surround are better, so I am just defending my opinion that surround is better (if you take your time and set it up properly of course). And just to be clear I mean real multi-speaker based surround, not that cheap heaphone based virtual surround where HRTF starts to matter.

To sum everything up so far:
Headphones are much more simple to use and do almost no feedback back into the mic. Also you don't need to wory about room acoustics and the noise from outside is less annoying. Headphones are a more cost-effective solution if you want to hear even the smallest details.
However with proper precautions that can cost a lot of your time and money real surround gives one significant advantage over panned stereo (as is the case with headphones in CS:GO) while not having all the disadvantages of virtual surround at the same time: The player has the ability to hear what is in front or behind him. And there is also more realism, because the directional frequency response of the ears (real-life-HRTF) isn't neglected.

Much of what I say is geared towards competitive play... imo anything not competitive is a waste of my time, in all areas of life. Therefore, I cannot agree that multi-speaker based surround, properly setup, is going to offer you an advantage in competitive play instead of using headphones with a mic.

I think you should write a guide on playing with speakers and proper setup. For the Casual player.

Actually I just gave an argument why multi-speaker setup is able to give an advantage for competitive play. (You can hear whether the enemy-footsteps are in front or behind you.)
It looks like we are talking past each other now. But that doesn't matter. I think I already got all possible useful information that I could get out of this conversation.
See you around.

Originally posted by your_breakfast:

Actually I just gave an argument why multi-speaker setup is able to give an advantage for competitive play. (You can hear whether the enemy-footsteps are in front or behind you.)
It looks like we are talking past each other now. But that doesn't matter. I think I already got all possible useful information that I could get out of this conversation.
See you around.

6. Stepping sounds aren't subtle sounds.***


If I'm going to read everything you write, show some respect and read all that I write in my response.

Depends on the definition of subtle. But even if we consider them as non-subtle sounds it's still an enormous advantage to know whether the source of those non-subtle sounds is in front or behind you.
I took my time to read all your responses. I don't know what made you jump to the conclusion that I didn't.

Originally posted by your_breakfast:

Depends on the definition of subtle. But even if we consider them as non-subtle sounds it's still an enormous advantage to know whether the source of those non-subtle sounds is in front or behind you.
I took my time to read all your responses. I don't know what made you jump to the conclusion that I didn't.

Subtle sounds to me would be rifle zoom, reload, attach/detach silencer, fire mode switch. I thought you didn't read #6.

Details are everything in this game.

Im a noob at this but I actully have the creative HIFI card that takes advantage of 3d sound with alchemy and the setting Snd_soundlegacy 1. IS this the same thing as HTRF?
Right now I have it set at 5.1 on sound card and 5.1 in windows and I can hear everything its unreal!! I wonder if im taking full advantage opf this card though with my settings? Can you please tell me what you think my settings should be with headpphones and the creative alchemy aka 3d sound? THANKS!

Originally posted by Sage:

Im a noob at this but I actully have the creative HIFI card that takes advantage of 3d sound with alchemy and the setting Snd_soundlegacy 1. IS this the same thing as HTRF?
Right now I have it set at 5.1 on sound card and 5.1 in windows and I can hear everything its unreal!! I wonder if im taking full advantage opf this card though with my settings? Can you please tell me what you think my settings should be with headpphones and the creative alchemy aka 3d sound? THANKS!

No, Alchemy and HTRF are two absolutely different things and have nothing to do with each other.

The short answer is:

Use the surround simulation of your soundcard which might or might not work. The only way to find out is to try and see if it helps you to correctly guess the direction where the sound is coming from. You can get optimal results only if you invest time and know exactly what you are doing. If you want to have it simple and working out of the box then forget the surround simulation and just use the default headphones settings without Alchemy.
Do not set your soundcard driver options to use 5.1 surround output if you only use headphones! That just messes everything up: 1. You might loose the bass frequencies (which become redirected to the subwoofer output and that makes absolutely no sense if no subwoofer is connected). 2. The soundcard will attempt to redirect the sounds from behind to the rear speakers (so you are not going to hear those sounds at all if no rear speakers are connected).

Here is the long answer:

HTRF allows to simulate surround by using headphones. It usually takes mutichannel sound as input and outputs stereo which is supposed to drive headphones. (OpenAL-soft's HTRF is supposed to be even more accurate, since it takes an input of 3D-Coordinates and a stream for each virtual sound source instead of manipulating and mixing mutichannel streams that are actually supposed to drive real surround speakers. But unfortunately most games use the new DirectSound API instead of the OpenAL API.) Xonar soundcards have this functionality built in to the driver and it can be activated from the driver's control panel. I think Creative calls this option CMSS-3DSurround.
Snd_soundlegacy 1 is a walkaround to force the usage of the old Windows XP's DirectSound3D API in case that you are still using Windows XP or NEED to use Alchemy for some reason. The compatibility layer of the new (Vista or newer) Windows versions to the old Windows XP's API is pretty messed up and Alchemy allows you to bypass it. That way you can have at least some surround effect in games that support surround but do not support the API of the newer Windows versions.
I would try to bypass Alchemy completely if I were you. For me it only made the sound quality worse. (Strange echo effects just appeared out of nowhere.)
Counter Strike GO supports the new API so there is no good reason to downgrade to the old API and Alchemy. The new API does not have any support for hardware accelleration but you do not need that bacause modern multicore CPUs are fast enough to handle surround sound just fine.
If I wanted to easily get HTRF simulation with headphones I would buy a Xonar soundcard with a built in headphone amplifier, set its output to headphones, set its audio content channel number to 8-channels, set Windows options to use 7.1 surround and the set the options inside the game to use 7.1 surround (or 5.1 surround if the game does not support it.)
If you have to use Creative try it's CMSS-3DSurround. For games that use OpenAL you can also try OpenAL-soft's HTRF. But make sure not to use OpenAL-soft's HTRF and your soundcard's HTRF at the same time. That would only make things worse.

<3 breakfast