I was looking at the various bonuses for hylotl vs orcana vs munari, and think that several of the bonuses should be tweaked for balance and lore reasons.

Current (pulled from github):

Hylotl
+Immune to wet
+10% hp
-20% energy
+Swim boost 2
+Perfect blocks restore hp, more with consecutive blocks
+In water, gains 20 hp, 4 protections
+1500 max breath, 60 breath regen
+Defense while slashing (according to description, with two handed axes and hammers, but I can't find this in the code)

Orcana
+Immune to wet
+25% hp
-8% energy
+swim boost 2
+25% damage with spears
+In water, gains regeneration and slower hunger loss
+2000 breath, 70 breath regen

Munari
+Immune to wet, slime, mud
-10% hp
+10% energy
+swim boost 2
+slower hunger loss in water (half potency of orcana)
+bonus to fist weapons
+regeneration in water

What this suggests is that Hylotl work best with a sword and shield playstyle (as their reduced energy is a negative for ranged and special abilities) Orcana should use spears, and Munari should use fist weapons.

I believe the two handed weapon bonuses for hylotl should probably be dropped. Their ability with shields is far too good to give up, and two handed axes, swords, hammers would be impractical to use underwater. Spears, one handed swords/daggers, and fist weapons would be effective. Of the three, I think hylotl is the strongest due to breath for moons, and being able to regenerate easily out of water with perfect blocks.

Here are my suggestions:

Hylotl are heavily amphibious, and most amphibians are able to stay underwater due to that they can breathe through their skin. Frogs can remain underwater for hours, and some species are fully aquatic. Given that Hylotl typically live along the ocean floor, I would suggest they gain water breathing and lose their breath capacity. This nerfs them slightly and fits the lore better. As stated earlier, I don't think they should have any special abilities with two handed weapons, as they are impractical to use underwater. From my testing, hylotl breath capacity is enough to mine on moons without difficulty, as the ghost begins to close in right around the time your breath would normally run out.

Orcana are an awesome race and I honestly think they're near perfect. Only thing I would do is give them swim boost 3 or 4 due to having a tail that would give them superior swimming speed compared to the others. Otherwise they're perfectly suited to high speed skirmishes near the surface of the water with their exceptional breath capacity and spear bonus. Healing and reduced hunger rate are the cherry on top.

Munari I believe are perfect as is. Their boosted energy gives them an advantage with ranged weapons giving them more flexibility.

Originally posted by Toroic:

What this suggests is that Hylotl work best with a sword and shield playstyle (as their reduced energy is a negative for ranged and special abilities) Orcana should use spears, and Munari should use fist weapons.

No, what it suggests is that they *can* use those weapons and get an added bonus.

I believe the two handed weapon bonuses for hylotl should probably be dropped. Their ability with shields is far too good to give up, and two handed axes, swords, hammers would be impractical to use underwater.

How so? The weight of the weapons would be almost unnoticable underwater , allowing even a low-strength individual to use much heavier weapons than normal. That was the line of thought I used here. Spears were for the Orcana (tridents, etc) and the Munari jsut slice things with their spooky merman claws. That left something for the Hylotl to fill the void :)

Hylotl are heavily amphibious, and most amphibians are able to stay underwater due to that they can breathe through their skin. Frogs can remain underwater for hours, and some species are fully aquatic. Given that Hylotl typically live along the ocean floor, I would suggest they gain water breathing and lose their breath capacity.

I'd say +1500 breath is a lot less powerful than complete breath immunity. The fact that their other buffs are so handy makes this an OP thing on them. They will not be getting infinite breath. Balance trumps lore, and having limited capacity means you still need to plan trips and not just dive in without a thought. I should, however, make it only apply in liquids and not on moons. That would be a decent addition.

Only thing I would do is give them swim boost 3 or 4 due to having a tail that would give them superior swimming speed compared to the others.

Considered it, but those swimboosts are too fast. So no. They get 2, not 3 or 4. That is not to say, however, that a customized version couldn't be created for them that is somewhere in between. But since I don't play with them, I haven't been able to make or test it as of yet.



All this aside: Expect things to change at random, as I constantly mess around with the balance stuff. Some decent thought into all of this, I just happen to disagree with most of it :)

As far as larger weapons underwater, the weight isn't less unless the object floats (often not the case with any weapon) but the issue is water resistance/drag. You could take something fairly light and it would be difficult to swing if you went wide side first.

A two handed hammer would be very difficult to use underwater because it would be much like trying to swing an oar, needing to displace all the water in the path. Very slow and weak hits relative to what can be managed on land. That's why stabbing/ projectile weapons are universally favored in aquatic or semi-aquatic environments.

As far as the breath bonus on moons, it makes sense that they would get it because they're holding ship air in lungs for the trip. Removing it, especially for the orcana, would be strange.

1500 breath is enough for a considerable amount of time underwater, in my testing outside of an ocean planet I didn't have a need to surface. The swim speed I haven't tested, but it seemed that horizontal swimming was fairly slow compared to vertical swimming or walking along the bottom.

Waterbreathing/breath protection is not a very powerful ability considering that it is one of the first EPP we pick up. From my testing large breath capacity was pretty much just as good.


Like I said, I think all 3 are viable and fun to play, Thank you for your hard work on them.

Originally posted by Toroic:

As far as larger weapons underwater, the weight isn't less unless the object floats (often not the case with any weapon) but the issue is water resistance/drag. You could take something fairly light and it would be difficult to swing if you went wide side first.

yes, but you are missing one key factor: the idea wasnt for them to use the hammers underwater anyhow. I was imparting the idea that they are strong from all that muscle used in swimming and the like.

Anyhow, I honestly don't care. For now they get hammers. This will change later, as has always been the plan. Mostly, I am testing some ideas out on live races to see how they swing.

As far as the breath bonus on moons, it makes sense that they would get it because they're holding ship air in lungs for the trip.

and since you seem to be sticking to realism here: The vaccuum would @##^^@ing kill them. End discussion there.

Waterbreathing/breath protection is not a very powerful ability considering that it is one of the first EPP we pick up. From my testing large breath capacity was pretty much just as good.

Yes, it was just as good. Which is why I used it instead of infinite breath.This won't be changing :)

Just going to repost this from the comments so it's in the right area:

It seems odd that Apex would get a buff to melee weapons. Every Apex NPC I see has a gun of some sort. It also clashes with the whole ultra-mordern tech stlye they have. Maybe give them some energy regen buff or something instead.

I do agree that the faster hunger rate fits them quite well. Also maybe make Apex, Floran, and any fitting mod race, able to eat uncooked food without getting sick. Those races seem like they would eat meat raw. Florans would seem to be at the stage where they would still eat things raw if they had to. The Apex's bodies are at a stage where they would also be eating raw food, and there is likely little good food to eat anyways with the Minikog running things.

@Sayter, Sorry, I think I posted on the wrong thread before, but it seems like the Glitch ability to not have to breathe has been taken away? I was wondering the reasons behind that decision, and whether or not they will have that ability again in the future?

Hi,
is it intended, that familiars are immune to spiderwebs but not to spider silk blocks?
I think they are basically the same thing.
It would be nice to have the immunity against the sticky webs effect aswell.

Thanks for the great mod

Originally posted by H1hoo:

Hi,
is it intended, that familiars are immune to spiderwebs but not to spider silk blocks?
I think they are basically the same thing.
It would be nice to have the immunity against the sticky webs effect aswell.

Thanks for the great mod

uh...spider blocks cause that effect...so they *should* be immune. However, I may have set the blocks to also cause a slow which overrides the immunity. either way, a minor thing

Originally posted by (Reverend) Zeldafan:

@Sayter, Sorry, I think I posted on the wrong thread before, but it seems like the Glitch ability to not have to breathe has been taken away? I was wondering the reasons behind that decision, and whether or not they will have that ability again in the future?

balance. And no.

Originally posted by Sayter:

Originally posted by H1hoo:

Hi,
is it intended, that familiars are immune to spiderwebs but not to spider silk blocks?
I think they are basically the same thing.
It would be nice to have the immunity against the sticky webs effect aswell.

Thanks for the great mod

uh...spider blocks cause that effect...so they *should* be immune. However, I may have set the blocks to also cause a slow which overrides the immunity. either way, a minor thing

hey,
sry if you already found it, but the reason is, that the effect is called webstickimmunity
and the mod gives spiderwebimmunity

"blockingstat" : "webstickImmunity" in webstick.statuseffect

replaxed it in racefamiliar.lua, spiderwebimmunity.lua and spiderwebimmunity.statuseffect

now it works

replacing was wrong. Adding in ADDITION to is the proper fix. It will be in the next update

After reading the rewritten 1.0 lore I retract my previous statement about the hylotl and water breathing, lung capacity is how the lore is describing them. (The rewrite is a bit odd, given their respawn animation, imo).

Still, they're fun to play and very fun and rewarding with a shield.

I've had a chance to play floran for a few hours and love them. Of the races, floran may be the most fun, and I personally believe they're the best designed.

The damage boost from hunger makes them excellent with all weapons, their healing makes them very durable, and bows are deadly in floran hands. The spear bonus is nice but minor.

Great work!

shouldn't the slime also be immune to tar

obviously not, or they would be.

:P

but no, they have plenty as-is.

Originally posted by Sayter:

This thread is purely to discuss racial balance and adjustments that could be made. This is not a suggest-an-ability thread. Any such suggestions will be removed. Please post them in the proper thread.

If you have legitimate balance concerns or feedback, it goes here.

I had an idea for a Floran rebalance, mostly going on the means of their hunger. Since they are plants I wish to keep the health regen during the day but also to add another effect to their photosynthesis: During the day, they slowly regenerate their hunger, making them a bit more ineffective for that Floran Edge ability. Another ability I wish to add is that when their hunger runs out, the Floran lose health at a rate of 5% and gives back a small portion of your hunger meter.