could you write what unit types they are? so does spikegunner count as miner unit? and what is pathgrinder etc,

You mean what buffs affect them? They're all mentioned by name directly.

Originally posted by Cataph:

You mean what buffs affect them? They're all mentioned by name directly.

ok, thanks. your units looks amazing

Great work man. CA should hire you. The skill trees and technologies are great and well balanced, and the humour ('when in Norsca' etc.) adds to flavour. Cheers for the hours you've added to the game.

Added notes for the new lord.

This mod represents a really fascinating gameplay experience.

First of all I wholeheartedly appreciate the effort that has gone into creating a new, theme appropriate unit roster. The Norse Dwarf units all feel similar to their southern cousins, yet sufficiently distinct from them in design and role to provide for (often significant) variations in battle playstyle. Kudos sir!

Secondly I thought I'd share some observations with how the mod has played out for me so far. Just for the purposes of feedback!

1. The Wardlord

This guy is amazingly well done. As a faction specific hybrid melee/support character, the Wardlord is nothing short of brilliant.

You've struck a really nice balance between melee capacity and broader army support functionality with this Lord through your available selection of skills. In fact the skills are so complementary and well situated that it enables this Lord to fill numerous separate roles within a combat scenario, whilst maintaining more traditional bonuses on the campaign side of things.

One thing I particularly liked with the Wardlord was the mutually exclusive skills "Patrol Bodyguard" and "Avalanche". These two skills provide two very distinct and viable playstyles for the Lord depending on what path you wish to pursue. The idea that the Lord can improve either Wardbearers or Stormbeards really allows for a focus on an offensive, vanguard based "strike" army composition (a concept supported *really* well by the new unit roster) or a more traditional rank and file field army depending on your choice.

2. The Units

Note - Whilst in some cases I tend to draw parallels between traditional dwarven units and some of the new ones, they're designed in such a way that direct analogues between the two are often not strictly accurate.

Rock Splitters - I like to refer to these guys as "siege engine infantry". They’re pretty good at reducing gates to rubble as stated. They're also decent at bombarding armoured opponents and have reasonable melee stats for a specialty torpedo unit, although their low health really doesn't encourage prolonged exposure to close quarters combat.

Spikegunners - These are one of the more interesting units in the roster in my opinion. They're like an odd, shorter ranged combination of thunderers (including the flat firing arc i believe) and rangers. I LOVE the fact that these guys are vanguard deployable and their ranged attacks provide a really nice punch for a specialty vanguard force, especially against heavily armoured chaos opponents. They do take approx. 50% longer than quarrelers/rangers to reload, which isn’t much of a problem, but their melee capability is rather sorely lacking. They have some armour and their pick-axes are primarily piercing damage, which is helpful, but overall I find these guys are a pretty big liability if they get pinned down in melee for more than a very short time.

Grom Bakraz - Norse Dwarf "Infantry Slayers" is how i describe these little firecrackers. I find that they’re substantially better in melee encounters with other infantry than traditional slayers are, at the cost of being less proficient at dealing with "large" units. The lack of significant armour piercing damage and the absence of the "unbreakable" characteristic can be a problem against chaos armies at times, however the better overall unit stats help to make up for this to some degree. Additionally worth noting, the leadership aura that this unit has is really handy when out on the flanks where you are often away from your leaders and out of their auras. Overall these seem to be a more traditional flanking version of a slayer-esque unit. Nice addition.

Pathgrinders – Really interesting alternative to traditional dwarf Ranger units. They’re significantly shorter ranged and completely lack any armour piercing damage, but I use these primarily as “bunker buster” units for breaking up formations and stopping enemy charges before they can reach my lines. They’re basically rangers without stalk that use satchel charges instead of arrows. I will often take a couple of these units with my “Vanguard” force because they’re also vanguard deployable and being able to break up enemy formations really quickly in this situation is very good for sowing confusion and discord amongst enemies.

They very much live up to their “decent melee combatant” moniker. I’m not afraid to throw these guys out to my own flank if I need to prevent some units from getting around me, they’ll stand up pretty well against most enemies. Also decent on weathering attrition from ranged fire as they are shielded. Their only real weakness for melee combat is that their health is a little lower than most other traditional dwarven melee units.

It is also worth noting that the “Strider” characteristic is useful for getting these guys into position quickly over rough terrain so that they can prepare for incoming enemy units.

Ogri’s Blades – I have to admit I think these guys are a bit weird. They’re kind of an odd unit. They’re an offensive unit that hits quite hard, but is neither anti-infantry nor anti-large, has minimal armour piercing damage, poor speed, relatively low melee defence and a pretty average charge bonus. Their high weapon strength and regeneration coupled with the “frenzy” characteristic seem to suggest that they’re intended for consistent damage output during prolonged melee engagements against enemies that don’t deal vast amounts of damage. For this reason, and their vanguard deployment capability, I take these and use them as my flanking DPS (or anti-flanker) units in my vanguard armies. Outside of this though, I don’t tend to field them in my regular armies as I’ve had better results using Huskarls or Grom Bakraz for the same purpose.

Huskarls – These guys are SOLID. These are the Norse Dwarf equivalent of traditional Hammerer units. Very well rounded melee combat stats coupled with very impressive weapon strength and both magical AND armour piercing damage (I’m not even completely sure how these interact together) make these guys extremely efficient at ploughing into enemy units both infantry and large alike. Quite slow, but once you have the enemy tied up with your line infantry, or if they’re trying to flank, these guys can wade in and deliver disgusting amounts of punishment very quickly whilst exhibiting impressive resilience. Simple. Straightforward. Highly Effective.

Ogri Three-Fingers – I genuinely haven’t used this guy yet. Really don’t have an opinion to offer about him. Might amend this if/when I do.

Wardbearers – The line infantry of the Norse Dwarves. Closest equivalent would, in my opinion, be Ironbreakers, with some significant differences. The Wardbearers are, as stated, extremely resistant to magical damage (mine exhibit 80% resistance on the tooltip) which can definitely come in handy. However that said, I think that magic damage in general is quite a lot rarer than physical damage and I feel like they sacrifice a fair bit to achieve this high magical resistance.

Wardbearers have solid all round defensive stats for line infantry, but are strictly inferior in most physical melee areas to Ironbreakers excepting melee attack and charge bonus where they edge very slightly ahead. Another difference is that Wardbearers only have “Charge Defence Against Large Units” whereas their Ironbreaker counterparts have Expert Charge Defence, which provides a bonus against ALL charges. I find myself noticing this difference more than I thought I would in my experience thus far.

Aside from the raw statistical differences, the Wardbearers also lack the satchel charge that Ironbreakers are capable of tossing out at approaching enemies. Whilst this isn’t the end of the world and this explosive role can be fulfilled by other units such as the Pathgrinder, it is a loss of potential utility nonetheless.

Wardbearer stats can be further buffed through use of a Wardlord, although I think the army skill line for regular lords might ultimately result in bigger cumulative bonuses for this unit.
I’d also like to note that the Wardbearer unit has both the “Runic Magic” and “Magical Aura” properties on the unit info card and that I don’t specifically know what either of these characteristics actually do (help me out here Cataph? =x). I assume one of them is what gives the Wardbearer their 80% magical resistance, but I don’t know which one does this nor do I know exactly what the other one does.

Overall I find Wardbearers fulfil the role of line infantry perfectly adequately, however the focus on magical resistance, while powerful, seems a little niche for a primary line unit and the trade-off in physical defence seems somewhat questionable to me much of the time.

EDIT: Upon reflection, such a direct comparison between Wardbearers and Ironbreakers is probably not an entirely fair assessment. The units perform similar functions, but the wardbearer is substantially cheaper to maintain which is reflected in the statistical variance between the two units.

Stormbeards – These guys are absolutely amazing. They’re like an offensive ghetto Ironbreaker. Absurdly good all round stats with good offense and HEAVY defence coupled with a stacked charge bonus that is nothing short of ludicrous for a regular sized infantry unit make these guys both powerful and really fun!

Furthermore, they have pretty good speed for a dwarf unit, are vanguard deployable (!!), have charge defence against large units and are capable of functioning as a siege unit allowing you to attack towns without building siege equipment! Wow.

My favourite use of these guys is as the front and centre line infantry for my Vanguard armies. They excel at it. They can hold the line beautifully against anything the enemy can throw at me and they’re capable of delivering more of a punch than their Ironbreaker counterparts.

These guys are really, really good. They can also be further buffed stat-wise through the use of a Wardlord (or a regular Lord) and I think there’s even a case to be made that they can compete with Wardbearers as line units in regular field armies (although this feels like a colossal waste of their potential and I much prefer to use them as line units in Vanguard armies.)

Overall Stormbeards are an A+ unit that fits very well with the overall theme and I am very much a fan of them.

Troll Melter – Pretty interesting “artillery” addition I think. This one almost feels like a “utility” artillery unit, which is unique. It’s got decent damage and middling range, but what I find most interesting about it is that it spreads its damage across so many different types. Periodic, Armour Piercing, Regular, Explosive, Flaming. It’s a nice spread of damage that is applicable in almost every circumstance. This is reinforced by the fact the troll melter has bonuses against both infantry and large units. Won’t damage buildings, but it serves its purpose quite well as a field artillery piece for army clashes.

Norscan Allies – Eh, to be honest these guys are pretty extraneous. They’re not really necessary and strike me as more of a flavour or purely thematic inclusion rather than a mechanical necessity for filling out the unit roster. I could see the odd use for the missile cavalry as skirmisher units, but otherwise I don’t see much point to these. That said, I don’t have a problem with them being present. They don’t imbalance anything or significantly detract from the roster in any way, and they are thematically very appropriate! So, they’re fine. Put the friendly barbarians in your army if you want them!

3. Tech Tree

This is another well designed and thought out aspect of the Kraka Drak faction. The bonuses are relevant and well balanced. They assist in providing a development path that enables the faction to function in what is otherwise a highly hostile environment in extremely close proximity to Chaos and angry barbarian tribes. It achieves this goal remarkably well without feeling like its grasping for Band-Aid fixes. The author deserves credit for what has been done with the tech tree. Well done!

4. Overall Impressions

I massively applaud the amount of effort gone into reviewing and recreating a unit roster that fits the theme of the Kraka Drak faction. Having played a significant number of hours with the altered roster, I can genuinely say that the balance and relative power of the new units is in line with what I would expect from the rest of the game and it has been implemented in such a way that faction interactivity has been well preserved whilst providing distinct and specific playstyle differences for the faction through use of the new roster.

Very well done and I am suitably impressed with the work and very pleased with what it’s doing for my play experience!

Keep up the good work Cataph.

The time for this analysis is appreciated, even if you weren't to agree with my choices, which in this case is an added bonus!

I’d also like to note that the Wardbearer unit has both the “Runic Magic” and “Magical Aura” properties on the unit info card and that I don’t specifically know what either of these characteristics actually do (help me out here Cataph? =x). I assume one of them is what gives the Wardbearer their 80% magical resistance, but I don’t know which one does this nor do I know exactly what the other one does.

Ehhh, those were placeholder tooltips that I tossed in there, in the hope that the reader would go and check their attributes to find their increased MR (which is otherwise pretty stealthy, since all dwarfs have that icon for their base MR anyway), nothing more. Just a pointer towards the uniqueness of an otherwise pretty standard unit.

I will be replacing them with a proper tooltip.

As for the Norscan dudes, yeah, of course a full-blown elite army will rarely see them included, but they are cheap, relatively hard-hitting and fast-moving stuff for secondary armies. Considering I intentionally didn't give Kraka Drak substantial upkeep reductions, they can be another desperate option.

Originally posted by Cataph:

The time for this analysis is appreciated, even if you weren't to agree with my choices, which in this case is an added bonus!

Ehhh, those were placeholder tooltips that I tossed in there, in the hope that the reader would go and check their attributes to find their increased MR (which is otherwise pretty stealthy, since all dwarfs have that icon for their base MR anyway), nothing more. Just a pointer towards the uniqueness of an otherwise pretty standard unit.

I will be replacing them with a proper tooltip.

As for the Norscan dudes, yeah, of course a full-blown elite army will rarely see them included, but they are cheap, relatively hard-hitting and fast-moving stuff for secondary armies. Considering I intentionally didn't give Kraka Drak substantial upkeep reductions, they can be another desperate option.

Fair enough. The "magic stuff" tooltips were certainly what made me go fishing for what the attributes actually did, so, mission accomplished there! The fact that there were two tooltips did confuse me somewhat though. Typically I tend to equate one of those tooltips up the top of the unit card with one of the attributes down the bottom. Might not be possible in all circumstances, but it could be worth considering lining these up on a one to one basis to provide clarification when you get around to replacing the tooltips :)

The norsca guys work well enough as throw away units I guess. There aren't too many bonuses for them in the tech tree, which means the opportunity cost for other more frequently used units to show up in the tree isnt much of an issue.

Speaking of the tech tree, one thing I did want to bring up was the number of options that provide improvement for slayers. There are three whole techs that exclusively provide bonuses for slayer units. The bonus are fairly decent, but thats approximately 11.5% of the options in the entire tech tree that are devoted to a single unit. Seems a little heavy perhaps? I think if you were to include Grom Bakraz in the definition of a "slayer unit type" (they seem to fit the bill?) and have these techs apply to them as well, then these three bonuses would probably be a little better balanced and more worthwhile. You could remove Grom Bakraz from the Stalwart Defenders line of techs if necessary and maybe adjust the numbers on the slayer techs downwards somewhat if you think having them apply to Grom Bakraz in their current form is too powerful.

Also I did want to let you know that Spikegunners seem to have fallen through the cracks a little bit when it comes to some of the bonuses available from both Lord and the tech tree. Stalwart Defenders ostensibly provides a weapon strength bonus to pick-axe units and whilst it certainly applies to dwarve miners, it doesnt seem to apply to spikegunners (who also tote a big pickaxe!). I'm not really sure if these spikegunners are supposed to be considered "Miner" units for the purposes of techs/lord talents? But "Miner" bonuses don't seem to apply to them currently. Could be worth considering whether or not it might be appropriate to have them do so? Unless theyre classified as some other form of unit for the purpose of bonuses that I'm just not seeing? (which could use some clarification if its the case!)

Just some additional thoughts and feedback!

Originally posted by Terradoss:

The norsca guys work well enough as throw away units I guess. There aren't too many bonuses for them in the tech tree, which means the opportunity cost for other more frequently used units to show up in the tree isnt much of an issue.

Between the optional tech node and the tier 2 lord buff there should be enough to make them viable. Of course both are optional points that can be skipped entirely, but so are some of the less-straightforward vanilla buffs (like Empire cav ones that are not as shiny as the usual +12/+12 for infantry).

The Slayer matter: yeees, it easily looks like that I suppose. But I wanted to make that tech branch entirely about the Slayer Cult (and auxiliary monster hunting via quarrelers and Rangers, but not too much coz melee-centric faction) and Grom Bakraz didn't swear the Oath. The problem is that Slayers are a bit in a limbo anyway, with their shrine being arguably too high-tiered and costly for what it does. Slayer tech buffs should right now include everythng the 'imperial' dwarfs give them in their tree. I originally had plans to introduce a lower-tier slayer building to make them easier to get, that might help.

Spikegunners: hm, yes, they're supposed to get that buff, I'm gonna check about that. As a matter of fact Spikegunners are technically Miners with a big gun, so yeah, that's the idea, just like I didn't want them to get too many melee buffs. Originally they were to be named Miners (Spikeguns) but I thoroughly hate those labels, so there.

I actually wish there was an extra UI label to show what 'family' (technically unit_set) the unit is part of to make buff tooltips also shorter but I suppose it would also make things more crowded.

Originally posted by Cataph:

I actually wish there was an extra UI label to show what 'family' (technically unit_set) the unit is part of to make buff tooltips also shorter but I suppose it would also make things more crowded.

Something like this would be really good. The real problem i have with the unit UI in general (not yours specifically) is that there really isnt an easily apparent way to draw a parallel between what "type" a unit is and the information necessarily available on the card. Of course its obvious in some cases, but there are enough instances where it is not that something like this would be kinda helpful.

I really don't know anything about modding the game, but I wonder if it would be possible to do something like editing the unit classification (that appears directly under the unit name on the top of the card) or its attendant mouseover description to provide more specific information about exactly what the unit type is?

See: http://imgur.com/a/ScBdc

Either one of those would provide a potential location to give some more enlightening information without further cluttering the unit card.

With regard to slayers, the introduction of a lower tier building........*might* alleviate some of the issues? I'm pretty convinced the fundamental problem with slayers isnt so much their availability (although the high tier nature of the shrine is probably unnecessarily inhibitive I agree) but rather their very limited scope of use. They're extremely good in a VERY narrow subset of circumstances.

The issue is that outside of these circumstances (in my opinion) they're pretty close to a total waste of space and even when these circumstances where slayers shine do in fact occur, they're a unit that can suffer pretty substantially when it comes to actual execution of their role. There's often not a lot (not enough?) margin for error given their highly specialised (and lets face it, rather squishy) unit design.

I tend to find that its worth taking a unit that is a bit less good at what slayers do (but still passable in the role) but that is also able to function in a broader range of circumstances than slayers can. This seems to work generally much better for me with a few rare exceptions. (see: Grom Bakraz / Huskarls).

I'm not really sure how one gets around the problem without significantly redesigning the unit itself, but I'm pretty leery of slayers in their current state.

It does occur to me that your own unit design might be working at something of a cross-purpose in this regard. As mentioned, I'd generally rather take Huskarls or Grom Bakraz over slayers the vast majority of the time. Both of these units serve to inadvertently further marginalise slayers to some degree, which were already pretty marginal to begin with. At least in my experience.

Originally posted by Terradoss:

I really don't know anything about modding the game, but I wonder if it would be possible to do something like editing the unit classification (that appears directly under the unit name on the top of the card) or its attendant mouseover description to provide more specific information about exactly what the unit type is?

See: http://imgur.com/a/ScBdc

Can be edited (in fact, I created new groups, see the Dual Wield Infantry one), however changing them for existing units would rollback all stats edits from any overhaul - hence incompatibility issues. But I might do something with that with my own units.

Cause it's not like tooltips such as "Axe Infantry" are useful for anything.

Slayers: well, problem is that even in TT they were marginalized after the nerf to their damage mechanics. Their only sensible advantage over other stuff (like Hammerers, that are kinda equally killy while being armoured) is that they are Unbreakable and faster.

Originally posted by Cataph:

Can be edited (in fact, I created new groups, see the Dual Wield Infantry one), however changing them for existing units would rollback all stats edits from any overhaul - hence incompatibility issues. But I might do something with that with my own units.

Cause it's not like tooltips such as "Axe Infantry" are useful for anything.

Slayers: well, problem is that even in TT they were marginalized after the nerf to their damage mechanics. Their only sensible advantage over other stuff (like Hammerers, that are kinda equally killy while being armoured) is that they are Unbreakable and faster.

Nice. I was mostly suggesting editing the cards for your units anyway, rather than the existing ones since those are the "new" ones that folks using your mod would probably need some clarification on the unit classification for. The vanilla ones i think most of us have probably puzzled out at this point ;)

Re: Slayers - I'll take your word for it, I've never played Warhammer TT. I feel like as far as Total War goes, they might need some additional help beyond being "fast" ("dwarf fast" is a little disappointing) and unbreakable to really justify their broader inclusion. Either that or they just remain super niche and the kind of unit that nobody takes very often and has a "doh, wish i had slayers" moment now and again before shrugging and continuing on with their hammerers/huskarls/GB's. Either way!

Okay bit of testing... this is weird, Huskals do around 25-37 choson (standard) kills, stormbeards are lovely looking and have some really cool traits but strombeards vs chosen 4 kills.

I just find it obscure there is nothing Ironbreaker (valuewise/statlined) that can near one-one and havea 50/50 winner with chosen. The wardbearers got mid 20s also.

Do you plan on manying an ironbreaker(statlevel/cost) unit for Drak as chaos is right on the karak-step.

No, certainly not as a tanky unit addition (which is where the IBs arguably overperform anyway). That said, I was already thinking about buffing the Huskarls a bit, just a matter of finding time for the necessary case by case testing.

As for the faction leader, nothing can be done as of now, since he is just a named Dwarf Lord, not a specific lord type (if you catch my drift). There are plans about it but for now I'd rather not promise anything.

Originally posted by Jîń:

Okay bit of testing... this is weird, Huskals do around 25-37 choson (standard) kills, stormbeards are lovely looking and have some really cool traits but strombeards vs chosen 4 kills.

I just find it obscure there is nothing Ironbreaker (valuewise/statlined) that can near one-one and havea 50/50 winner with chosen. The wardbearers got mid 20s also.

Do you plan on manying an ironbreaker(statlevel/cost) unit for Drak as chaos is right on the karak-step.

To be honest, whilst i understand the desire to have something Ironbreaker-ish, especially against chaos units, I'm not really sure its necessary. The entire Kraka Drak faction through this unit rebalance is intentionally quite distinct and plays fairly differently to dwarves. They don't hold the line as well, but if you can adjust your thinking and playstyle to compensate for the decrease in overall defense and increase in mobility, utility and in some cases offense, then the battle can play out very differently, but just as successfully as with a defensive heavy dwarf roster.

Point in fact ive even taken to getting into conflict with the dwarves themselves to see how the different unit rosters shape up against one another and the results are surprising. Not always successful, if i over-estimate my capabilities or have a poor composition or positioning, but certainly interesting.

I feel like in general the Kraka Drak unit roster has less toe-to-toe value than dwarf units do, but in using them differently their strengths can be pretty successfully exploited. I also find that Kraka Drak armies require a certain level of strategic planning and tactical execution that far exceeds that of regular dwarf armies.

Kraka Drak strikes me as a high skillcap faction under this particular unit roster. The units have the capacity to perform extremely well, but it requires a pretty deft touch to make that happen. Mediocre players with Kraka Drak will do pretty poorly, its not a particularly "new player friendly" unit roster. Whereas highly skilled Kraka Drak players have the potential to far exceed what is possible with regular dwarf armies, in my opinion :)