Could you perhaps make the units a tad smaller? I'm using a mod called RED modpack, this mod makes the units seem more numerous, and makes them a bit smaller. with this mod installed my Rune warrior TOWERS over the barbarians, like he's a Giant.

Hm, now that i mention it, a Giant unit would be cool. like, leave that unit the same scale as the units in this mod now but make all the others smaller so it would indeed be a giant.

Perhaps not allowing all of those early units to create holy sites. Kinda trivializes early forms of faith generation.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Freeasabird:

Could you perhaps make the units a tad smaller? I'm using a mod called RED modpack, this mod makes the units seem more numerous, and makes them a bit smaller. with this mod installed my Rune warrior TOWERS over the barbarians, like he's a Giant.

Hm, now that i mention it, a Giant unit would be cool. like, leave that unit the same scale as the units in this mod now but make all the others smaller so it would indeed be a giant.

You could ask the Devs of the RED modpack to make you a plugin for this mod to shrink the units? I'm sure S-Man wouldn't mind.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Rhaken:

Perhaps not allowing all of those early units to create holy sites. Kinda trivializes early forms of faith generation.

This arguement is valid, Faith was & still is not an issue for me, especially considering the bonuses associated with a Holy Site. Perhaps make Holy Site units available Post-Ancient. Should also help with Hermit unit being considered too OP.

@Rhaken - good point, and I agree with Ninja's thoughts as well. Once we all decide about how we "purchase" units with Faith, we can figure out how to adjust the unit.

For example - if we decide (and I'm leaning that way now) that the first 2 units in each class can be bought with Gold or produced normally, but the other 4 units in the class can only be obtained through Faith purchase, then we'll probably need quite a few sources of faith - something the earlier units building Holy Sites would help with. So, this means to me that the later units can NOT build Holy Sites? For someone who paid good money to get on a boat to ride to an island in the middle of Lough Corrib to see where St. Patrick's navigator is buried, I'm leaning toward the notion that it's easier for an "ancient" site to be more revered than something modern, even if it's more obscure. So - only the first 2 units build HS, but themselves can only be built with Production or Gold. Last 4 units in the class only obtained through Faith? For all 6 classes, or only some? Thoughts?

OTOH, if we decide there will be no Faith purchasing of any units, than the need for Faith from extra Holy Sites (and indeed, most of the new buildings) will be much lower and can probably be removed entirely.

Remember - the mod is BETA - as many of the fine questions you all are raising right now are the ones I didn't have an answer for before. If it all seems a little "under cooked" that's intentional. I was hoping to get such clarity from people playing the mod, had a good idea how it should perform, and wanting to contribute on how it should develop.

Appreciate any and all comments on how to deal with all of this!

Oprindeligt skrevet af ✠ NinjaDemon05 ✠:

Well, when "druid" comes to mind, I think of blood magic. So think of a bubbling blood bath under the enemy unit for visual (or even half the size of a fire but wider & red tinted if it is easier this way), then give the druid +3 range, but -15% defense (compared to what is considered a normal defensive value as per the Era) as well as your usual Holy Site touch & the Leadership stats.
I'm not familiar with making a mod, but I have a very light understanding of how it works, hence the blood fire tint suggestion.
If I didn't mention it before, I'm autistic. Just let me know what is possible, I can come up with ideas easily.
Dragon Rider:
Melee
+75% damage vs Cities, +25% damage vs ground units, -15% defense from ranged attacks, -50% defense vs Missile.

Liche:
Melee & Ranged
Des:
A Necromancer whom has become so powerful, upon death they have risen as an undead lord.
+2 range, -50% defense from all damage, Summons up to 3 skeleton squads, +25% Terrifying

Skeleton Squad:
Melee
+10% defense from all damage, +25% healing when adjacent to a friendly squad, +5% Terrifying, -15% attack damage

I could go on.

As for only the first two being HS units, I (personally) disagree. Post-Ancient gives the Civs that don't want a Pantheon or Faith the chance to remain away from it. Otherwise keeping HS constructions at all on Ancient just feels to much like an accelerant.

Making the Ranged classes purchaseable by Faith only, while Melee classes Gold purchaseable, & the Healer style units you made Production only, but also able to construct Holy Sites after reaching Medieval. Even Medieval times had their holy relics & holy quests.

If limitation is required, then perhaps make Medieval to Reinassance healer units able to do the HS construction, as Post-Reinassance is generally where I see focus on Faith decline rather sharply. Faith decline is especially noticeable once Ideaologies steps into the frame.

Oprindeligt skrevet af S-Man:

@Rhaken - good point, and I agree with Ninja's thoughts as well. Once we all decide about how we "purchase" units with Faith, we can figure out how to adjust the unit.

For example - if we decide (and I'm leaning that way now) that the first 2 units in each class can be bought with Gold or produced normally, but the other 4 units in the class can only be obtained through Faith purchase, then we'll probably need quite a few sources of faith - something the earlier units building Holy Sites would help with. So, this means to me that the later units can NOT build Holy Sites? For someone who paid good money to get on a boat to ride to an island in the middle of Lough Corrib to see where St. Patrick's navigator is buried, I'm leaning toward the notion that it's easier for an "ancient" site to be more revered than something modern, even if it's more obscure. So - only the first 2 units build HS, but themselves can only be built with Production or Gold. Last 4 units in the class only obtained through Faith? For all 6 classes, or only some? Thoughts?

OTOH, if we decide there will be no Faith purchasing of any units, than the need for Faith from extra Holy Sites (and indeed, most of the new buildings) will be much lower and can probably be removed entirely.

Remember - the mod is BETA - as many of the fine questions you all are raising right now are the ones I didn't have an answer for before. If it all seems a little "under cooked" that's intentional. I was hoping to get such clarity from people playing the mod, had a good idea how it should perform, and wanting to contribute on how it should develop.

Appreciate any and all comments on how to deal with all of this!

What if, in addition to limiting which eras could produce sites, that they make something a bit different? Instead of holy sites, make something called a "Sacred Site" which would be a weaker version of it (Say 1-2 faith inctead of 6). This would still give a boost to faith generation in the early game, but more of a push for faith focused civs, rather than a rocket boost.

Rhaken - you may be on to something there. I like the HS-lite idea in general, but we are still not addressing the real problem. We need to decide which units require Faith-only to purchase, so we can get an idea how much we want to buff/nerf Faith generation - either through more/less Holy Sites and/or changes to the new buildings.

So, I guess until we can come to a decision on that, it's all arguing about angels on pinheads.

My original thought was that the first 2 units in the class could be Produced/Gold purchased. The last 4 units in the class would ONLY be available through Faith purchase. Ninja is of course correct, that in normal life Faith gets scarce as we move though historical Eras. I guess, the inspiration for my plan was from the Bene Gesserits from the Dune series. They saw Faith as a means to power - if there was some form of magical energy available to tap in to. I was thinking that a society would need to have serious faith in its cause if it were to create units who could tap in to this mysterious source of energy/power.

We have 6 classes in the game, each with 6 units. Total of 36 (if we can trust my math - always a risky proposition). As a default, let's say that all 36 of these units can be built with Production or bought with Gold.

Now, we need to provide specific recommendations if we want to change this assumption. Specifically, which unit should be purchasable with Faith? Only Faith, or some other combination?

Once we get this new list, we should be able to determine if we need to find ways to generate more Faith, less Faith or no changes needed.

Thoughts?

Oprindeligt skrevet af Rhaken:

Oprindeligt skrevet af S-Man:

@Rhaken - good point, and I agree with Ninja's thoughts as well. Once we all decide about how we "purchase" units with Faith, we can figure out how to adjust the unit.

For example - if we decide (and I'm leaning that way now) that the first 2 units in each class can be bought with Gold or produced normally, but the other 4 units in the class can only be obtained through Faith purchase, then we'll probably need quite a few sources of faith - something the earlier units building Holy Sites would help with. So, this means to me that the later units can NOT build Holy Sites? For someone who paid good money to get on a boat to ride to an island in the middle of Lough Corrib to see where St. Patrick's navigator is buried, I'm leaning toward the notion that it's easier for an "ancient" site to be more revered than something modern, even if it's more obscure. So - only the first 2 units build HS, but themselves can only be built with Production or Gold. Last 4 units in the class only obtained through Faith? For all 6 classes, or only some? Thoughts?

OTOH, if we decide there will be no Faith purchasing of any units, than the need for Faith from extra Holy Sites (and indeed, most of the new buildings) will be much lower and can probably be removed entirely.

Remember - the mod is BETA - as many of the fine questions you all are raising right now are the ones I didn't have an answer for before. If it all seems a little "under cooked" that's intentional. I was hoping to get such clarity from people playing the mod, had a good idea how it should perform, and wanting to contribute on how it should develop.

Appreciate any and all comments on how to deal with all of this!

What if, in addition to limiting which eras could produce sites, that they make something a bit different? Instead of holy sites, make something called a "Sacred Site" which would be a weaker version of it (Say 1-2 faith inctead of 6). This would still give a boost to faith generation in the early game, but more of a push for faith focused civs, rather than a rocket boost.

Agreed, definitely a good idea. Always thought Holy Sites were a bit OP, especially if you spec your Religion right. Slow population climb, but always guarantee +3 Gold, +6 Faith, & +3 Culture.

Oprindeligt skrevet af S-Man:

Rhaken - you may be on to something there. I like the HS-lite idea in general, but we are still not addressing the real problem. We need to decide which units require Faith-only to purchase, so we can get an idea how much we want to buff/nerf Faith generation - either through more/less Holy Sites and/or changes to the new buildings.

So, I guess until we can come to a decision on that, it's all arguing about angels on pinheads.

My original thought was that the first 2 units in the class could be Produced/Gold purchased. The last 4 units in the class would ONLY be available through Faith purchase. Ninja is of course correct, that in normal life Faith gets scarce as we move though historical Eras. I guess, the inspiration for my plan was from the Bene Gesserits from the Dune series. They saw Faith as a means to power - if there was some form of magical energy available to tap in to. I was thinking that a society would need to have serious faith in its cause if it were to create units who could tap in to this mysterious source of energy/power.

We have 6 classes in the game, each with 6 units. Total of 36 (if we can trust my math - always a risky proposition). As a default, let's say that all 36 of these units can be built with Production or bought with Gold.

Now, we need to provide specific recommendations if we want to change this assumption. Specifically, which unit should be purchasable with Faith? Only Faith, or some other combination?

Once we get this new list, we should be able to determine if we need to find ways to generate more Faith, less Faith or no changes needed.

Thoughts?

When I broached my idea, it was based off the game, though historically Faith has declined as well. From my experience, only 1 or maybe 2 Civs will even care about Faith once you reach Modern, & the 1-2 that do care are only sending Missionaries out even after a World Religion.
This is where your mod could alter that though... If you keep Faith generation a solid capability, you could make the "Magicks" units costly in terms of Faith, but worth the exhorbant Faith cost in terms of their abilities & power, making a Faith move still pliable. This would, however, also probably shine more if the "Sacred Site" idea was utilized, as Great Prophets become very pricey late-game.

The only reason I suggested in keeping the "healer" class units (Your units that stack with combat units) at a moderate Faith purchase, as well as make them only able to create Holy Sites Post-Ancient to Industrial, is simply because when Religion starts, in the beginning it is relatively slow. Once Reinassance hits, Religion seems to take a missile takeoff, where that Religion missile seems to crash heavily on Modern. Industrial is just a very sharp decline, Modern is where it dies. Reinassance is about the only Era where Religion is a solid step up, due to having all your beliefs & using them to milk resources.

Allow me to clarify from earlier:
Any Melee Combat unit should be gold purchaseable. Anyone with training in reality can be bought with the right price, this should ring true here.
Any Non-Combat unit should be a Faith purchase, since they have the capability of generating more Faith anyways (HS), & also tend to seem more like "mystical healers" with some of their abilities.
Both Melee & Ranged Combat units should be production-capable. Take a normal person, put them through boot camp. Mold them as you need them to be, melee or ranged. Training can help a person achieve anything. Especially if a city (or entire Civ) is funding it.

Ninja - some solid reasoning. Let me summarize what I think I'm reading and let me know if I get it right:

Need to create a new improvement to replace Holy Sites - let's call it a "Cairn" - sort of a Holy Site Lite (stats TBD, but a lighter version of the HS).

1. Assassins: Melee unit, Gold & Production, No "Builds"
2. Clerics: Civilian unit, Faith purchase only, Units 1-2, 4-6 build Cairns, 3 builds Academy
3. Magus: Melee unit? Gold & Production, Faith purchase (#2-5), Units 2-3 build Cairns, 4-6 build Academies
4. Monks: Melee unit, Gold & Production, Units 2-6 builds Cairns
5. Mystic Warriors: Melee unit, Gold & Production, Units 1-6 builds Cairns
6. Necromancers: Melee unit, Gold & Production, Units 3-6 builds Cairns

The Cairns will be something like +2 Faith, +2 Culture; also +1 Gold with Theocracy Social Policy, +2 Culture with Piety finisher.

May seem like a lot of Cairns on the map, but they're supposed to represent the final resting places of some legendary, heroic figures. Also, they do have some OK yields, but they do take valuable real estate that may help limit them spamming the map.

*********

So - is something like that what you were suggesting?

Oprindeligt skrevet af S-Man:

Ninja - some solid reasoning. Let me summarize what I think I'm reading and let me know if I get it right:

Need to create a new improvement to replace Holy Sites - let's call it a "Cairn" - sort of a Holy Site Lite (stats TBD, but a lighter version of the HS).

1. Assassins: Melee unit, Gold & Production, No "Builds"
2. Clerics: Civilian unit, Faith purchase only, Units 1-2, 4-6 build Cairns, 3 builds Academy
3. Magus: Melee unit? Gold & Production, Faith purchase (#2-5), Units 2-3 build Cairns, 4-6 build Academies
4. Monks: Melee unit, Gold & Production, Units 2-6 builds Cairns
5. Mystic Warriors: Melee unit, Gold & Production, Units 1-6 builds Cairns
6. Necromancers: Melee unit, Gold & Production, Units 3-6 builds Cairns

The Cairns will be something like +2 Faith, +2 Culture; also +1 Gold with Theocracy Social Policy, +2 Culture with Piety finisher.

May seem like a lot of Cairns on the map, but they're supposed to represent the final resting places of some legendary, heroic figures. Also, they do have some OK yields, but they do take valuable real estate that may help limit them spamming the map.

*********

So - is something like that what you were suggesting?

Sounds reasonable, & easy to implement.

OK - I'll start working on the Cairn TI today. Never done one of those, so wish me luck! Will also make the adjustments to the unit classes based on details in post #10.

I also want to work on the next 2 classes - the Druid and the playable Drako (Dragon) class that DracoDrake and I have been discussing at civfanatics.

I'm currently planning the Druid to be a mounted melee class with some additional property, perhaps healing support. Later units will build Cairns and will use Gold purchase / Production to obtain.

The Drako class will probably be siege type of unit, initially with range of 1, then moving to 2 or 3 by end class. These units will build Holy Sites and only be available through Faith purchase - LOTS of Faith....

Both are works in progress, design-consideration-wise, and could change a bunch even if the artwork doesn't.

Hope to have a new version published in the next 2-3 days.

EDIT: Based on researching the available modes, change "Druid" in the posts above to "Beast Master"... ;)

so far this mod is fantastic and i havent had any problems with it, except one. the one thing i had and i dont know if it is part of the mod or not but when i have the wizard attack most of the time he runs up to the enemy and melees them or he will do a range. idk if the wizard has a melee and a range but some clarification would be great.

a suggestion for a unit that i have would be a werewolf or werebear, what ever were animal u want. basically that were creature would charge up and melee and do massive amounts of damage, it could be an earlier unit maybe in the renaissance but it would be expensive

Thanks Budder - all of the Magus class units are "ranged attackers" - albeit for the first 4 units the range is 1. The "Wizard" proper is the 3 unit in the Magus class and has a range of 1.

I like your suggestions about the were-units. There is a Werewolf in the mod presently, as one of the Barbarians - specifically in the Renaissance era, between Gunpowder and Rifling.

Currently, I'm only including fixed "classes" of player units, where each class has 6 units that evolve through history. Each of these classes is supposed to provide a particular combat capability, i.e. recon, melee, ranged attack, healing, etc. I'm currently working on 2 more classes - a "dragon" class of siege experts, and a "beast master" class of mounted melee specialists.

I'm running out of combat capabilities to use for new fantasy units, so this part of the mod's development may stop at 8 classes of units. After those are done, I was planning on adding single units at different times in history, similar to what the Barbarians are using (like the werewolf mentioned earlier). If you look on page 11 of the manual, you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. Some, not all, of these units will be converted into human-playable units with similar capabilities. The additional Promotions for each of these units will be worked out on a case-by-case basis - with input from players being MOST helpful.

Oprindeligt skrevet af S-Man:

Thanks Budder - all of the Magus class units are "ranged attackers" - albeit for the first 4 units the range is 1. The "Wizard" proper is the 3 unit in the Magus class and has a range of 1.

I like your suggestions about the were-units. There is a Werewolf in the mod presently, as one of the Barbarians - specifically in the Renaissance era, between Gunpowder and Rifling.

Currently, I'm only including fixed "classes" of player units, where each class has 6 units that evolve through history. Each of these classes is supposed to provide a particular combat capability, i.e. recon, melee, ranged attack, healing, etc. I'm currently working on 2 more classes - a "dragon" class of siege experts, and a "beast master" class of mounted melee specialists.

I'm running out of combat capabilities to use for new fantasy units, so this part of the mod's development may stop at 8 classes of units. After those are done, I was planning on adding single units at different times in history, similar to what the Barbarians are using (like the werewolf mentioned earlier). If you look on page 11 of the manual, you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. Some, not all, of these units will be converted into human-playable units with similar capabilities. The additional Promotions for each of these units will be worked out on a case-by-case basis - with input from players being MOST helpful.

I'm sure it was mentioned before, but will these classes have the potential of being promote-able to the next unit, or will they remain obsolete as the Eras proceed?
EX: Hermit still alive during Renaissance Era. Will the Hermit have a Promotion option, or deleted for maintenance or a better unit?