https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/200710/discussions/0/595155668457158970/

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Originally posted by ADEC Inc:

Looking up the affix "of_tl2_blinding" in GUTS shows that it appears on ranged weapons with the exception of rifles, a.k.a. shotguns.

Originally posted by ADEC Inc:

Yes, it is certainly rarer than any of those others. The list includes the weight of each affix, which is the likelihood of it being chosen relative to all other options. If you divide its weight by the sum of the weights of all applicable affixes, you get the probability of it being selected. In the case of blinding on a high level wand, it's just over 2%.

Originally posted by steffire3:

Thanks very much for specifying all of that info with thy writing expertise. It clarifies much of the connective plot points that are otherwise vague without reading the dialog between the two games.

Thy summary is very accurate to the remaining TL2 Unique Item Lore and in-between Main Mission dialog that most Youtube videos don't show since some players are unaware that Quest Givers like Vale have extra post-mission dialog that mention their awareness of the Alchemist's condition.

Ordrak from what I've read between the dialog of the TL2 Guardians and the Item Lore hints that at some early point in Continental Vilderan; there was a time when the Guardians were formed into existence as creatures and as what I can only describe as a glorified neighborhood watch group directly representing the ember powers of existence itself (and for the sake of clarity - this also includes what the game hints yet never proclaims what could be defined as "sub-guardians" like Ordrak).

Ordrak is made distinct from other dragons because of his sub-guardian status and the threat his power imposes should he turn against existence itself. More importantly is that Ordrak himself seems to be a victim of Corruption (a status similar to Ember-blight only more morally corrosive to the afflicted entity seems to be the hint).

The Torchlight Mountain appears to have been some kind of implicit trap made to contain Ordrak although it's purposely left vague as to the exact details of it's source and make.

TL2 does provide many clues even multiple encounters with Netherim that strongly imply that sacrifices are the main method of entry into the realm of Continental Vilderan much like Ordrak's methods.

Both games imply that anyone who allies with the powers and energies of Corruption, Ember Blight, or the Nether will be slowly overridden by another intelligence to control their logic, motive, and action.

This would explain why Alric would no longer desire Immortality as his primary mission or the TL2 Alchemist abandoning a peaceful resolution to remove Ember Blight everywhere.

TL2 Act_1 Quest Givers mention that Ember Blight only affects elemental types like Estherians and related creatures rather than Humans although this wouldn't explain why Syl wasn't affected unless the TL1 curing machine made her and other human ember wielders immune. The Alchemist handling dangerous sources like Ordrak's Heart would've corroded any resistance he would've had otherwise leading into the events of TL2.

The greater plot point seems to be that Continental Vilderan is under attack from extra-dimensional forces that wish to consume it plus everyone and everything within that realm. In that sense; Ordrak is nothing more than an ancient version of the Torchlight Alchemists all of whom fell prey to being made a puppet of Corruption that appears to have a will and intelligence of it's own. Makes one wonder if the Netherim are nothing more than the creatures of another version of Continental Vilderan that fell to Corruption and are now being called to destroy other versions of existence outside of their own. Implications.

Originally posted by steffire3:

Originally posted by HiFive:

Very interesting, Steffire. I agree that Ordrak is perhaps, rather than being immune to Ember, a victim of it's evil influence.

I'd have to spend a lot more time pondering the dialogue of TL2 to comment on the rest of what you have put forward. Maybe I'll finally take a more in-depth look into Torchlight 1 and 2 lore at some point in the near future.

Thanks for deepening the discussion HiFive! I too need to review my notes with what the games actually state word for word since that would require screen capture and archival methods. Glad to inform on the potential that the Torchlight lore has.

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Photo that provides proof that the TL1_Vanquisher_Class is TL2_Commander_Vale:

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3221397325

Originally posted by steffire3:

Originally posted by HiFive:

I'm glad you found the cinematic for the Vanquisher's last words on TL1. I tried to find it in the game files (both locations), and could not see anything that would open with the video. I did not think to do a web search for it.

As for the Alchemist, I always felt that his last statements after killing Ordrak gave a hint that he might suffer the same fate as Aldrich, when he says, "Imagine: The power of an entire mountain of Ember in the palm of my hand! I have so much more to learn. I may not be leaving Torchlight for quite some time."

So I was not that surprised when he turned out to be the villain in TL2. What surprised me was the extent to which he had studied mechanics to defend himself in his robot-like suit and the huge places that he had filled with so many different robots, along with the manufacturing sites for building them. He truly was a genius, fueled with the desire to find a cure for his affliction, hoping it would help others who were also afflicted, only to end up forgetting his original purpose as Ordrak's heart gradually took over.

From the above you can see that I believe the enemy Alchemist in TL2 is, indeed, the same Alchemist that we played in TL1.

I'm glad finding the Vanquisher TL1 Ending video helped!
Makes sense that both games hint strongly at this being the exact same Alchemist.
What are your thoughts on the Destroyer? Is he the same or another character for TL2?

The Wiki has info that strongly hints at the Dwarven people being the predecessors (although not the first) of most modern Ember wielders and machine builders long before the Estherians and therefore the reverse-engineering modern Imperials (TL2 Acts 2&3) were ever present in Continental Vilderan:
https://torchlight.fandom.com/wiki/Dwarf

“The oldest myths of the creation of the world always mention the dwarves: Short, stout beings who discovered the secret of Ember-powered clockworks, and, with it, conquered all of Vilderan and much of the rest of the world. But their lust for Ember led them to make war on the dragons, and, ultimately, brought them to the brink of destruction. As the dwarves' power waned, the races they had subjugated rose up and decimated them, sacking their glorious cities and plundering their precious Ember-powered machines. Also, they dip themselves in metal.
All that is left now of the once-mighty dwarven empire are their dead, grotesquely animated by the corruption of Ember, and their wondrous machines; all still steadfastly defending their deserted mines and ruined cities from invaders who never come."
—"Creature Race of Torchlight II," Runic Games

According to an interview with Runic's writer JD Wiker, the dwarven civilization fell in the distant past, before the rise of the Estherians and the Zeraphi, who themselves are millennia old. Dwarves are responsible for building about half of all ruins on Vilderan and 90% of the Ember-related artifacts.

Hence the idea that half of the ruins and 9 out of 10 Ember-artifacts within Continental Vilderan are dwarven-built leads to the notion that the Falling TL1.5 Alchemist merely had to modify the pre-existing dwarven-tech that was just waiting for someone to re-purpose upon conquest. He's still a genius for his exploits and his original motive to cure all Ember-blight... it's only unfortunate that he sourced from such a malicious force as Ordrak's Heart.

Originally posted by HiFive:

Ahhh. . . That explains how the Alchemist suddenly had so many machines helping him. Most of them were already there and he just brought them back to life or reprogrammed them. I had assumed they were all his work, since there were so many study/drafting tables throughout the game that showed his work. Perhaps not all of the work on those tables was his, but one gets the impression that a good many of them are, or that he at least studied them. Anyway, I always had trouble explaining to myself how the Alchemist could possibly have accomplished so much work in so little time. If he is just reinvigorating pre-existing technology, it makes sense.

Yes, it's clear that the dwarves were an ancient race in that part of the world. They are no longer around, but the Ember has been around for a very long time. Ordrak said he had been in existence for eons, therefore the Ember must also have been available for eons. Each civilization that encountered the Ember probably tried to use it, if they could.

Another assumption of mine was that the Destroyer at the starting area was our original Destroyer from TL1. Either the Destroyer is now in his later years, or we could make a case that the Ember has prolonged the lives of both the Alchemist and the Destroyer, since both said they would remain in Torchlight and continue their work there. Syl also seems to be dedicated to staying in Torchlight, since she encourages our TL1 hero to stay and continue to help her, and she was also partially "transformed" in some device in TL1. So, these three (Syl, the Destroyer, the Alchemist) would have been working together for some years.

I vaguely remember one of them saying, in TL2, that no one had noticed that the Engineer's mind was getting corrupted until it was too late - unless that was Commander Vale saying that. That would put us back to the question of Vale being the same Vanquisher we played in TL1. However, Vale could still be a different Vanquisher. Perhaps after the King heard about the goings on in Torchlight, he sent another Vanquisher to keep an eye on the place. Or her Order could have sent one or more Vanquishers. Also, since all of the heroes from TL1 would have become famous, it is possible that Vale was just very familiar with all of them and was regularly apprised of their activities.

Consider that the Overseer was obsessed with using the ember to prolong his life, and seemed to have done so, in some fashion, for both himself and his minions. It's possible that mere exposure to the ember over long periods would increase a person's lifespan, if they were not affected by the ember blight (Ordrak was clearly not affected by ember blight). With the curing machine that Syl discovered, the ember blight was no longer an issue for humans.

I can't remember for sure, but I think Master Alrich was also convinced he would have immortal rule alongside Ordrak, and he tried to tempt Syl with the thought that she, too, could be immortal and rule with them. Of course, we know that was a lie, since his intention was actually to use her as a sacrifice for Ordrak. (Caveat: If my memory is faulty, then perhaps Alrich was more consumed with having ultimate power instead of immortality.)

Aldrich's assistant had placed Syl in a contraption to transform her in some way so that she would be a proper sacrifice for Ordrak. I think that this machine was intended to make her instantly immortal, like Aldrich probably already was. Aldrich had probably adapted the machine from something the Overseer left behind. Or, maybe the Overseer left enough notes behind that Aldrich figured out how to make a machine that made a person immortal without having to become a ghost or spirit.

Sacrificing such a transformed person would enable Ordrak to exist outside of the confines of the mountain. I'm guessing that Ordrak would have lost his immortality if he left the mountain, and the sacrificial person would give him at least the temporary immortal energies needed to travel elsewhere. Perhaps the machine that gave a person immortality could not work on Ordrak directly, since he was not a human. When Ordrak observed the Overseer giving himself immortality, he then conceived a plan to use an immortally transformed human as a source of internal immortal energies, thus enabling him to leave the mountain. He probably would have needed regular sacrifices over the years to keep this attribute.

Aldrich was the perfect person to make Ordrak's dreams come true. Aldrich had the technical knowledge to create an immortality machine for humans, and that is probably the only reason Ordrak did not consume him immediately. He would need Aldrich to maintain this machine for future sacrifices. By the time our hero is on the verge of killing Aldrich, the beast Ordrak seems to be speaking thru Aldrich, saying, "No! I will not be defeated this way!" Thus, Aldrich escapes to Ordrak's lair to sacrifice himself. If Ordrak had been successful in defeating our hero, he would have left the mountain and found another human with the same skills as Aldrich to provide him with more human sacrifices.

Only the Vanquisher seemed to indicate that she would travel back to her King and inform him of her deeds. In that case, she would not have remained in Torchlight for very long, and might not have received the benefits of an increased life-span. Or, even if she had received an increased lifespan already, we can still surmise that she was promoted to a much higher level than Commander Vale and was busy with other things.

The biggest question for me is - where did Ordrak come from? Is he a dragon that was transformed by the Ember? How did he wind up inside that mountain? Were there no other dragons who stumbled upon the caves in the mountain? Or was Ordrak the only dragon that was somehow able to survive the ember blight?

I am not usually that concerned about lore when I am playing games. For that reason, I never bothered with the fine details of the story, but this conversation has been interesting, and my younger self dabbled with writing fiction and poetry. So, delving into this stuff is not wholly foreign to me. Anyway, the above is my take, thus far, on what happened to our TL1 heroes.

Originally posted by steffire3:

Originally posted by HiFive:

However, I don't believe commander Vale is the same Vanquisher that was our playable hero in TL1. I think she is a different Vanquisher from the Order of Vanquishers.

The last cinematic in TL1 for a playable Vanquisher character has her saying that she thinks she deserves special commendation from the leader of her Order (of Vanquishers).

Anyway, it never occurred to me that anyone would think Vale is the same Vanquisher as the one we played in TL1.

The TL Wiki surprisingly seems to believe it's the same player classes between both games:
https://torchlight.fandom.com/wiki/Commander_Vale

In fact, Vale is the Vanquisher player character from the first Torchlight.

https://torchlight.fandom.com/wiki/Alchemist

In Torchlight II, it is revealed that the Alchemist was either not fully cured of the Ember Blight the party contracted in the first game, or re-contracted it due to his own use of Ember to fuel his powers. Either way, he has been driven mad by it and is the main antagonist of the game.

I also looked up a Torchlight Vanquisher Ending Video to view the words used at 6:14:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rMdzQYtRR8

It doesn't help that the Studio is no longer available to ask on this topic however let's use the little info we have left and make the case that this isn't the same TL1 Player Vanquisher and that the Wiki is wrong...

... That merely leaves the final quote from the Vanquisher Ending of the first game and I've already checked TL2 walk-through videos for any text from Main Quest Npcs only to find no clues on whether TL2 Vale is from the events of TL1 or whether the TL2 Alchemist is even the same person or a later character who simply got hold of Ordrak's Heart:

Originally posted by https://youtu.be/3rMdzQYtRR8?t=374:

Destroying evil is it's own reward, but I think I have earned a promotion for this victory. Although the Vanquishers are a secret order, my king will hear that I was responsible for Ordrak's defeat.

TL2 "Commander" Vale is certainly implied to be "promoted" (this word is never mentioned of her in TL2 yet the parallels match) and I'll go as far to note that the Studio made sure there is a "Corp" (subjective size yet reasonably described) of Vanquishers in the opening cinematic and early maps of TL2 just to push the idea of rank within this class.

TL1 implies the idea of the Vanquishers bring ruled by a "king" and if the Studio plays on that word then the idea of "king-dom" or neutrally a "-dominion" could be ruled by a "Regent" (think of the Grand Regent example over the Estherians from TL2). However, Vale is merely a "Commander" unless Commanders get to rule the Vanquisher Dominion warlord style like the Sturmbeorn General Grell (attempts over Estheria) - in any event, it doesn't prove Vale's exact identity for me either way. It's ambiguous at best.

I'm also going to say on closer read that the TL1 statement says "my" king rather than "king of the Vanquishers" and the "secret order" reference may be led by military rankings rather than royal titles even if the Order itself requires royal descendants (possibly).

Yet the biggest clue we have at least to the timing of events is "Syl" herself appearing in both games. She doesn't appear to have aged much even if a few years have passed.
If these Torchlight class characters are not the same then I want to know (rhetorical - I realize there's no official answer or proof for this) to when, how, and why did this particular Alchemist get Ordrak's Heart? Are there multiple Alchemists post-Alric era running around obsessed with "Dark" Ember (read TL1 ending for the Alchemist) one of whom will contract Ember Blight (TL2 Icy Hills Lore Notes) then be led by Corruption to attain the Heart? Were Ordrak's parts sold on the "Dark" market waiting for someone to answer "his" call? How did Syl even know the Heart was being pursued by "this" Alchemist? Much more have "a" Destroyer and an Order of Vanquishers ready to stop this?

Torchlight 1&2 leave many loose plot threads unanswered and I admit you have a point that these class characters could be entirely different people as there's no hard proof to say either way.

Good catch on that plot point. If anything - it makes good fuel for mod fan stories both ways.

Originally posted by steffire3:

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/200710/discussions/0/3380536561714638456/

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Originally posted by steffire3:

Originally posted by dwaynegand:

This makes no sense. Grell is a much weaker monster than Ordrak. The Vanquisher helped take down Ordrak alongside the Destroyer and the Alchemist in the original game, yet in the sequel, she is defeated by Grell. Then we come along and kick his ass. We win where she loses. Wth?

I can only surmise this was written as plot convenience by the Studio although in that case - they really should've just had the Estherians send their own Captain (there's Estherian Armor in the game available to the player hence this implies that the Enclave can field a defensive embermage with pacifist tactics at the very least). Would make more sense for us to save this theorized inexperienced Captain then have Commander Vale arrive later to clean up the Steppes herself with the experience she gained from the first game. Vale is never shown in the first Cinematic which allowed the possibility of her arriving later had the Studio chosen that logic instead. Grell had invaded the entirety of the Steppes so this was a missed opportunity.

Originally posted by steffire3:

Originally posted by HiFive:

I think you are a bit confused. Our character defeats Grell in TL1. The beginning video in TL2 shows the Vanquisher defeated by the Alchemist, who has been corrupted by the ember. Our original quest with our new heroes is to defeat the Alchemist. Then we are given yet another final enemy to kill.

Ultimate Torchlight Back-Story Revealing Spoilers Below:

Except Grell wasn't available in TL1 while Ordrak (the true back-story villain although not always a game boss) is the plot pivot for both games directly and indirectly:
https://torchlight.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Boss_monsters_(T1)

The Vanquishers (TL1 Class trained soldiers), The TL1 Class Destroyer, and Syl the TL1 Npc Sage are defeated by the Fallen TL1 Class Alchemist in the opening TL2 cinematic only for Commander Vale (TL1 Class Vanquisher and a Npc TL2 Leader) to arrive shortly later in-game...
https://torchlight.fandom.com/wiki/Syl
https://torchlight.fandom.com/wiki/Commander_Vale

... then, according to the wiki:

She is overwhelmed by General Grell and his minions, but is rescued by the player.

"Overwhelmed" may be a subjective word with many interpretations yet one aspect is clear: Vale the TL1 Vanquisher did not defeat General Grell within the Wellspring Temple of TL2 Act_1. This seems strange since TL1 implies that all of it's 3 playable Class Characters can and have defeated Ordrak the fallen TL1 Dragon Guardian - a being of great world power manipulated by Corruption and acts as a harbinger of the TL2 Netherim.

Bonus Note: Ordrak's lore ties him to the back-stories of TL2 Dragon Bosses Vyrax and Thiss as being hungry for power through Embers. All three likely share a similar consequence and all three likely have ties to Ancient Estherians because of Grunnheim lore:
https://torchlight.fandom.com/wiki/Ordrak

The Estherians are directly connected to the introduction of Spectral Dragons, indirectly influenced the beginnings of the Ezrohir, have populated and / or controlled most of TL2's Continental lands of Vilderan at some point in history, trained Syl the Sage on her expertise (hence her teacher Alric learned from them too), and possibly trained Imperial even Ancient Embermages if including the lore found on Unique Items:
https://torchlight.fandom.com/wiki/Estherian

Grell the Warlord General of Sturmbeorn in contrast has never been associated with world breaking power although altogether the Sturmbeornen (with ties to northern Berserker lore) are credited for being able to resist the power of the Vanquisher Corp: https://torchlight.fandom.com/wiki/Sturmbeorn

" In the far north of Vilderan dwell the Beornen: a race of bear-men who have developed a primitive culture built around exploration and trade - and, from time to time, plunder. These raiders, or "Sturmbeornen," cross the northern channel and ravage the coastline settlements, pillaging and slaughtering in their quest for power, glory, and battle.
Most of these raiding parties consist of a few dozen bear-men, but a veritable army of Sturmbeornen has recently arrived in the Estherian Steppes - far outside their usual range. Led by the fearsome warlord, General Grell, the Sturmbeornen push ever nearer the Enclave, the last city of the Estherians, and not even the might of the Vanquisher Corps can stop them. —"Creature Races of Torchlight II," Runic Games

Is this an official implication that Vale is no longer able to handle grave threats to the Torchlight world despite her impressive past? Possibly, the Studio clearly mitigated the TL1 characters current power lore for the TL2 plot (fallen Alchemist had to source power from Ordrak's heart rather than his own while the Destroyer is wounded on the side-lines as examples).

Understandably, some Players won't enjoy this development choice to mitigate TL2's continuation of TL1's power levels for important story class characters.

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/200710/discussions/0/595155000272000087/

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Originally posted by Artorath:

I have never seen anyone else mention this, so this is a PSA for people who are willing to play modded and are not at the mod limit with things that can't be disabled.

Any time you change your mod setup by checking/unchecking a mod and loading a save, the game is repopulated, without rerolling your world or resetting your custom portals. You can take advantage of this with something not very intensive, for example a loading screen mod. So, say you need to farm a boss for guaranteed uniques in a particular range, or Grell for the eyes. The best thing to do is:
drop a waypoint right outside the boss door;
kill the boss;
take the provided portal to town, save and quit, close the game;
relaunch, toggle the loading screen mod on/off;
reload, warp straight to the boss door, and the boss will be reset to kill it again.

This is much faster than the alternatives of visiting 3 other dungeons to make your target dungeon refresh, or rerolling the world in a multiplayer game, searching the unfamiliar map for the dungeon, and running through the whole dungeon again.

Edit: this is also a good way of resetting the shops if you must get a particular set piece or something, but don't want the other consequences of rerolling.

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/200710/discussions/0/595154681972533477/

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Originally posted by goyangistudios32:

How many years after the first game does Torchlight II take place? I'm asking because in the final cutscene where we see the Alchemist's dead body, he looks much older than he does in the first game. It could be due to his sickness, since the Vanquisher and the Destroyer look mostly the same as in the first game, but I'm not entirely certain. Any information clarifying this would be helpful.

The game's dialog boxes are written carefully to not mention exact years (likely a writer's technique to keep events flexible).

TL2 also adds new tribes, factions, and powers to the in-game world that reaches farther than TL1's dialog could've referenced.

Plus the fact that the Town and Mines of Torchlight as a location are avoided in the 2nd game.

Assuming that TL2 Humans (in good health) age similar to how the "real-world" works - perhaps it's less than 20 years and likely closer to 10 years.

It's long enough for the original 3 protagonists to be famous among the TL2 Vanquisher Guards that would require some time to pass in order for their Fame to spread amongst their brethren.

It's important to remember the Act_2 Side Quest words of the TL2 Faceless King - basically the fact that anyone associated from TL1 has ties to the Empire itself.

Meaning that some of the factions in TL2 may not be as aware of the events from TL1 as others (of matters related to the Imperial Colonial activity in Continental Vilderan).

One thing is for certain; TL1 and TL2 are very close together in time compared to TL3. Could even say that Ordrak and the Nether itself were responsible for that as they parasited two imperially contracted, Alchemist Classed, highly skilled individuals within such a short time-span. Meaning that the military operations of the Netherim need to factored when thinking about time passing between these two games.

In other words; Ordrak wasn't finished with the Nether campaign plans when defeated the first time - needed a quick follow-up before the Nether went to sleep a long time until the events of TL3 woke up Ordrak again.

The Imperials take the initiative to Mine the Energy of Vilderan yet merely offer passive reaction (preferring to send mercenaries (the Player)) when the Nether wreck two of their highly knowledgeable Alchemists.

And are very passive yet neutrally industrious regarding the Act_2 war that only flared up again after the Player finishes Act_01.

I have stated all this just to give some idea of how many years might be needed to allow all of this to happen after the events of TL1 (specifically the time needed for the TL1 Alchemist protagonist to perform tests on Ordrak's Heart... likely not long if factoring the Alchemist's narration ending in TL1 - I recommend studying all 3 TL1 class endings to give an idea on TL2 context).

We don't know how long the current (TL1) Empire has been mining the Ossean Wastes however we know the historical Empire of the Item Lore was already present in Vilderan for many ages.

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https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/200710/discussions/0/595154681972575724/

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Originally posted by Artorath:

Playing a dual auto attack berserker, and something kind of important for your gear selection is understanding what determines execute speed. If the main hand weapon swings it's that weapon's speed, if the offhand swings it's the offhand speed, but what is it when they both attack?

The wiki claims that when executing, your character waits the time of the slower weapon https://torchlight.fandom.com/wiki/Execute , this is misleading. I have seen other people say it is based on the faster weapon, also misleading, and other people say it alternates based on whose turn it was to swing, you guessed it, misleading.

IF your execute chance is BELOW 100%:
I believe that you begin by executing according to your main hand speed, and this continues until you fail to execute (you chain several main hand speed attacks, not taking turns), at which point it switches to your offhand speed, and this continues until you fail an execute roll, at which point it is back to the main hand etc. Basically it alternates in chains and not every other attack. If you don't have execute chance maxed this makes pairing weapons of wildly different speeds very janky (assuming your execute is still high enough to matter), one moment you're a chain saw, the next fight you might be dragging your feet. Side note that if you intentory yourself to be just one handed and attack, the execute speed resets to be governed by the main hand (but who has time to hotswap?).

IF your execute chance is at the 100% cap:
the execute attack speed (and therefore all your attacks) will be governed by the main hand weapon speed in normal play. If you followed the previous scenario, this is no surprise: it starts by following the main hand weapon speed and never stops, because the execute roll never fails. This remains true if you stop attacking and start up again later. The only way for this to not be true is if you start with a gear setup that doesn't have 100% to execute, attack in place until the speed switches to governed by the offhand, then don your 100% execute equipment - in which case, it will remain governed by the offhand, perhaps until a loading screen or something, I didn't test that.

So if you cap execute chance mismatched weapons are preferred: you want speed in your main and heavy hits on the offhand. Technically to min max things like stormclaw that are based on weapon damage (as opposed to dps), you should use different gear to switch the execute speed to offhand by attacking in place, then put your heavy hitting weapon in the main with the 100% gear; but that's probably too much work for every single combat zone.

If, like me, this question has bugged you, hopefully this helps.

Originally posted by Artorath:

So I went all in on applying my findings, and did the end of the game (from broken mines level 5 to killing the netherlord) with a trident dagger in main hand (attack speed .48) and Skullcracker in offhand (attack speed .96).

The first thing that has to be mentioned is that this picture is not 100% accurate, it is more like 99%. Exactly once, in around an hour of play, my attack speed got reversed and I was swinging slow. I have no explanation for it, but the difference is too big to just be my imagination. I guess playing with this strategy is potentially "buggy". To fix it, you need to open inventory and either: swap your main hand and offhand; or, click the offhand to pick it up on the mouse, press move forward+hold still hotkeys to attack in place one handed, and then click the offhand back in place.

Second, this is extremely powerful. Mace damage ranges were not designed with the idea that players would shrink the attack time under half a second. You get ridiculous dps, all the weapon on hit procs, % health stolen, two rolls for on crit things like blood hunger, what's not to love? There are probably more efficient builds for clearing rooms of trash, but the single target dps and health from attacking are ridiculous.

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https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/200710/discussions/0/595152944226188876/

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Originally posted by Gauron:

I'm looking for something along the lines of "I started with a mere firebolt, cold touch and bad gas. Nowadays, i cast Infernal plane onto the world, call fort the ice age and have Nurgle as my summon."

Theolentist, Nethermancer, Synergies Warlock and Necromancer, Korzeam's Deathknight, Fighting Arts (Otaku fighter). Tenebris, Gunmage.

Electrical Engineer - while just a more powerful modded Engineer... is a surprisingly much more powerful Engineer.

Darkthan's Class Packs 1 or 2 are a decent second choice.

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/200710/discussions/0/595149752738305265/

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/200710/discussions/0/813573650210895734/

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Originally posted by Dasyatis:

Hi, I usually never use eyes dropped from bosses and I sold them as it always appears better to me using other gems like vellinque or whorlbarb. But now I'm wondering if anyone had better results with boss eyes?

Boss Eyes offer less than Skulls however are useful to acquire certain Affixes before NG+ where they shine as early assets for builds.

Still viable for end-game if seeking to build faster and lighter on numbers than Skull farming.

Difficult to justify filling survival Sockets without Limony or Riechliu Skulls - however for Weapon sockets - Eyes are decent for damage boosts.

It's similar to comparing Unique equips against Rares.

Damage is easy to build in this game... as long as Enemy Armor is getting lowered or Criticals are invested during progression.

Originally posted by Cannonaire:

Not me over here using "Shred Armor" passive on Berserker with dual claws (50% armor penetration) and 100% crit rate. >.>;

(I favor Bonepry Wedge. It's just too good.)

I tend to agree that eyes are a lot more useful on New Game than at higher levels. Grell's Eye is an obvious choice. The only eye I find myself using consistently on my 'finished' builds is "The Eye of the Netherlord" to reach 100% Slow Resistance with Willpower VI, but even that is more of a preference thing.

I also tend to agree with steffire3 that "Damage is easy to build in this game...", and I spend a lot more sockets on ensuring survival than I do on increasing damage. Your damage should be mostly covered by skills, gear choice, weapon sockets, and enchants. Armor sockets are almost always best used for Damage Reduction (75%) and Health (Riechliu).

Originally posted by Cannonaire:

I'm assuming you don't mean Eviscerate, the Berserker skill...? It doesn't destroy armor according to the wiki. Then again, that wouldn't be the first error I've run into there.

The Equipment version of Eviscerate (equivalent to Rank 01 of the Berserker Skill):
https://torchlight.fandom.com/wiki/The_Beast_with_a_Million_Eyes
Although being a Legendary Weapon - it's too rarely random to expect a drop except during a surprise farming session (on second thought).
It doesn't shred Armor although the Damage-over-Time does bypass Armor.

Originally posted by Cannonaire:

I see. I have four available "Skull of Zardon", so maybe I can try those. I wish they were "Zardon's Mighty Skull" instead though. :(

Netherrealm Claw also has that Eviscerate, albeit with only 5% chance.

Your intuitive mentions in this thread are all good - I'm looking to see if I can suggest any other options as you've asked in the other thread for the build.

Netherrealm Weapons are great options for their 4 Sockets even if their Chances to activate events are lower than Legends and other Uniques.

Netherrealm is as close as this game gets to the idea of an end-game craftable weapon (if all of the Netherrealm options are viewed as one collection of choices).

Originally posted by Dasyatis:

Originally posted by Cannonaire:

Circling back to the thread's topic, it looks like "The Eye of Winter Widow" at level 100 does the best armor shred at -180 per hit. I should have several of them to use if I try it out.

Level 91 skulls of X'n!troph are much more effective, reducing enemy armor by -404. But I don't think getting a lot of armor reduction is really useful as enemy armor is limited and in my experience just few hits can get it down to zero.

Since getting multiple strikes within a second or two is easy in this game - even a lower number of minus Armor overwhelms enemies; at most - just one Weapon Socket satisfies the need if players feel it's necessary.

Originally posted by Dasyatis:

I haven't experience a situation yet where armor reduction worth it in late game.

Fumble attack chance can be easily lower to zero with Dexterity as long as you're in late game.

With Unique Weapons often having activation events - it becomes less of an issue.
Skills largely bypass Armor since most enemy Armor is limited to Physical anyway.

Dexterity is limited to reducing the Fumble Damage Loss.
Claptrap's Item removes 15% Chance of Fumbles preventing ruin of Critical potential.
Since Fumbles cancel Criticals - Dexterity not affecting the Rate of Fumbles directly does eat into the maximum Critical Rates.

Although only some builds aim for this. Situational goals.

Originally posted by Cannonaire:

Originally posted by Dasyatis:

Level 91 skulls of X'n!troph are much more effective, reducing enemy armor by -404. But I don't think getting a lot of armor reduction is really useful as enemy armor is limited and in my experience just few hits can get it down to zero.

Thank you! I overlooked them because they have slightly different wording, at least when I searched the wiki page.

I have to say, I'm not really keen on the armor shred idea either. When I'm talking about my builds, I'm talking about builds that have 100% or almost 100% crit rate (My Outlander has 83% on both sets, which turns to 100% in extended battles because of the charge bar and Share the Wealth). At level 100 they all have nearly capped crit damage bonus, so they tend to do several tens of thousands of damage per hit, making a couple hits of armor shred a pittance. Whether it's -180, -404, or even -4,004 armor, it's not going to make much of a difference except maybe on bosses. But to be fair, it just might be more useful on the hypothetical melee build which is more of a "just for fun" concept since it won't be blind-locking bosses with Shotgun Mastery.

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Originally posted by Cannonaire:

Next Build? Vanilla Only!
I ONLY play Vanilla. I have no plans or interest in trying mods at this time.

I've been playing TL2 on and off since it released, but in the last year I got really into it again and my playtime more than doubled. In that time I have made several 'complete', fully enchanted level 100 builds. So far I have one build I'm completely satisfied for each of the four classes except Embermage, for which I'm currently making my 4th build (Strength-based). I'm hoping that this build will finally be satisfactory after my somewhat disappointing Focus builds. With that out of the way, I'm posting to ask what kind of build should I do next?

Finished/Satisfactory Builds:
:berserker: Berserker - Auto-Attack (Left Click, 25K HP Heal Tank)
Engineer - Emberquake (with Fusillade Alt Set)
:outlander: Outlander - Shooty Outlander (Rapid Fire Shotgun/Single Pistol and Shield)

Finished/Unsatisfactory Builds:
:embermage: Embermage - Focus (Frost Wave/Prismatic Bolt, All 3 Brands)

In Progress Builds:
:embermage: Embermage - Strength/DPS (Shocking Orb and Icy Blast)

These are the builds I'm curious about since I've never done them:
:berserker: Wolfpack Berserker
Pure Cannon/Minion Engineer
:outlander: Glaivelander
:embermage: Fire Embermage
Any Pet- or Minion-Oriented Builds
:luck: Any others (unmodded) I might consider?

Originally posted by Cannonaire:

Originally posted by potterman28wxcv:

Melee Embermage (with Magma Mace + Wand Chaos)...

That does sound fun! My Strength build has 15/15 Magma Mace already, but she's using either "The Final Embrace" (Primary) or "Bonepry Wedge" with a shield (secondary) because of the very large amount of elemental damage these weapons have, which would benefit from both Strength and the Focus points needed to equip mage gear.

I can't say I've really thought about using Wand Chaos. Is it really that much fun? I tend to go out of my way to avoid gear with Chaotic Rift effect (Netherrealm Wand, Magus Scream, Dragoncoil, Tri-force Catalyst) because I'm not a fan of enemies teleporting out of range and/or behind me. I was planning on enchanting a wand just because though, and leveling is pretty easy compared to farming and enchanting, so maybe I'll make another character to try out Wand Chaos with Magma Mace using the same gear! I'll save the next Dervish V and VI spells I find.

On another topic, just to clarify my stance on mods VS Vanilla—I'm specifically trying to push the limits of builds on unmodded TL2, and I already have a huge amount of resources available from an absurd amount of farming.

Engineer building around Storm Burst provides Mobility and Damage into and out of battles. Can easily support it with the less popular skills like Onslaught and Ember Reach for the crowd control.

Engineer makes good use of the weapon-swap function to flip between Cannon and Melee hence Fusilade to Emberquake for the best of melee and range.

All Shield related skills Engineer, with Tremor and Heal / Copter Bots

Embermage Wand Chaos activates Meteor, Glacial Strike, Thunder and such - makes up for the random teleport against enemies. Can be used with Wand-auto-attack builds and the 4 attack skills that activate it.

Berserker and Outlander can exclusively build their Passives for effective auto-attack builds.

Outlander building around several of or specifically:
Shotgonne Mastery
Venom Hail
Chaos Burst
Bramble Wall for the Item Activation Effect

Shadowling activations and empowerment

the difficult and un-optimized Dual Wield Pistols

Glaive Sweep, Vortex Hex, Bane Breath, Burning Leap, Rune Vault, Flaming Glaive, Blade Pact, Stone Pact with Melee Weapons

An ice with Focus Berserker that is surprisingly powerful
Hunter skill tree Berserker
Shadow skill tree Berseker
A mix of Hunter and Shadow Berserker

Originally posted by Cannonaire:

I have weapon choices narrowed down to one 2-handed weapon (The Final Embrace) and five 1-handed weapons: Shards of Cobalt, Arcgap's Vice, Bonepry Wedge, Clockmaster's Tooth, Hammer of Retribution.

Any others I might consider? This would be for the hypothetical Outlander melee build. I already have armor with a good mix of Strength and Focus enchants, and I don't want to enchant a full set right now. I would socket in "The Eye of Winter Widow" along with the usual skulls for improving damage.

A good plan.
I can extend that end-game list to include these:
https://torchlight.fandom.com/wiki/Eight-Armed_Axe
https://torchlight.fandom.com/wiki/The_Beast_with_a_Million_Eyes
https://torchlight.fandom.com/wiki/Masque_of_the_Red_Death
https://torchlight.fandom.com/wiki/Deathsport
and
https://torchlight.fandom.com/wiki/The_Axe_of_Throwing
I admit the Dps is low on this mid-game Rare hence best to enchant it with direct damage and add as much direct damage into it's sockets as well.
If only for the fact that it's the only Vanilla Weapon that can be thrown as it activates this as an item event. Useful if in need to swap weapons for the fake-range yet Melee damage.

Originally posted by Cannonaire:

Originally posted by steffire3:

Glaive Sweep, Vortex Hex, Bane Breath, Burning Leap, Rune Vault, Flaming Glaive, Blade Pact, Stone Pact with Melee Weapons

After what you said in the other thread, I'm thinking about this one now. I can probably make a new Outlander build fairly easily using the equipment I already have enchanted for my Shooty Outlander, but with different skills and weapons. I'm having trouble visualizing how it would play though. Any thoughts or skill point allocation suggestions?

Yes, a player could also add Bramble Wall (skill) to destroy it for the item activations from weapons (Acid Rain, Glacial Strike, whatever is available to spawn on the Bramble's destruction near enemies).

Outlander has no native 25% Damage Reduction (compared to Berserker) so it really needs all the Armor Sockets it can get to raise that and Riechliu skulls for the extra health.

Cursed Daggers provides some decent bonuses for any Build if used before striking directly with another skill or weapon.

Shattering Glaive can also provide a Move Speed reduction on enemies for support.

Shadowmantle can be useful as a lesser version of Berserker's Ice Shield for Outlander missile-reflection.

Dodge Mastery, Poison Burst, Share_the_Wealth, and Master_of_the_Elements are all decent support options for this as Passives.

Attacking with a weapon usually favors high Strength and 100+ Dexterity although Focus is also decent to invest for an Outlander that can take advantage of the elemental nature of it's builds. Until Boris can be used to boost and patch any gaps for Stats later.

Would help to carry a Shield for Melee survival (use the Blocking Tome from Fishing or Late-Vendors to boost chances - less Vitality needed if chosen) although if the numbers are decent - then going with no shield is also viable.

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In practice - Burning Leap gets snagged by obstacles however Rune Vault can be used backwards or forwards (mouse click in front or behind the Outlander) for mobility towards and away from enemies too.

Debuffs or supportive damage like Vortex Hex, Flaming Glaives, Shattering Glaive, Bramble Wall (to be destroyed for activations), Cursed Daggers, Blade Pact, and Stone Pact can be used or placed before the Melee begins.

While in Melee:

Bane Breath is awkward however it can be used in Melee effectively if built correctly with Focus and Death Ritual's shadowling boosts (no need for ranged weapons).

Glaive Sweep is the main Melee skill-attack option for Outlanders.
This skill actually has everything from Knockback to a tier-01 investment of Damage_over_Time (bypass Armor) hence a "Strength-Focus Dps mix" to crowd control with Stun and Interrupt, it even includes Charge-Gain.
The Knockback is awkward however it also means the ability to corner and pin targets in tight-space combat scenarios.

Flaming Glaive can still be spammed for the extra damage and the tier investments make Fire and Poison even stronger damage options on affected targets.

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The Melee Outlander is not recommended for beginners for a reason - however with good pre-farmed items - this power-house has strange and unusually good potential with the correct use of it's skills and traits.

Very different from a Melee - Berserker, Embermage, and Engineer with certainty.

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Originally posted by Cannonaire:

... ... ... I'm wondering if there are stats available to see why this enemy takes so long with Shocking Orb.

Anyway! Onto the melee Outlander build, and I gotta admit, I have no idea what I'm doing. I can't make heads or tails of what gameplay is supposed to look like with this build. Assuming a finished build at level 100, what will my attack patterns look like? Mostly left-click attacks? Glaive Sweep? I'm not too thrilled about knockback with melee weapons, especially since most enemies are probably going to take 2-4 hits with that skill.

I'll see if I can find a YouTube video maybe.

I suspect the War Titan has high Electric Armor.

Found a good end-game showcase video of a "Clawlander" Outlander and is as close as I could find and is related to my suggested build:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIlfnjg-jbw
A clear use of Glaive Sweep, Flaming Glaive, Rune Vault, Shadow Mantle, (passive) Poison Burst, Bane Breath, Cursed Daggers (for the DeBuff). Probably has supportive passives outside of those skills seen in the UI hot-bar in-video.

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Originally posted by Cannonaire:

I'm going to enchant a couple weapons. Does anyone know if there would be any benefit from having more than one Skull of Zardon on a single weapon (Conveys 3970 Physical Damage over 5 seconds)? Would it double the DoT? I have Four of them available.

I can say that it does apply another (although the game shows the number on the same overall total) 3970 damage over time.

So it would double, triple, etc - the amount of Time Damage inflicted upon affected targets.

I find that this game honors the time damage immediately yet shows the amount draining the enemy health bar anyway - proof is when the player applies sufficient time damage to destroy the enemy health bar and the enemy is actually destroyed before the time damage fulfills it's "time".

It's basically "free" damage unaffected by Armor just not affected by "Dps" Rates (yet actually is affected by strike speed since applying the Time Damage with more strikes in a shorter time will destroy the target sooner).

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