https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/workshop/discussions/18446744073709551615/2119355556478817475/?appid=200710

Originally posted by *Yuki*:

I wonder, why I didn't make such thread before.

Some people here may know my compilation of mods, that won't bind to saves: https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=710657313
After mainaining it for a while (yes, I know, that right now it dont feature recent doudley's mods and other goodies - Im working on that), I began to understand, which things will bind to character's save (or affect it in permanent way) and which not. But Im still far from being good at this knowledge, so - I made this thread.
Below will be list of things, mods with which will require you to make new character. Please, commit here, if you know anything better than me - you will help both me, other modders and, most important - mod users, who are tired of leveling over and over with each mod compilation.

Things, that will "bind" to your character (e.g usage of stuff, such mods provide, is "one-way trip" - you wont be able to get rid of them safely):
- All custom pets. Doesnt apply for pet food - only for pets, you begin with.
- All custom classes. Just like with pets - if you have mod with them, while playing as vanilla characters - you will be fine. And as with pets - usage of these classes will affect only savefile of character, doing so.
- All mods, affecting shared stash. Doesnt apply for normal stash and inventory mods. But if you have mod, that add additional slots/pages/etc to shared stash - all characters, you will login into with it, will be binded to it.
- Level extenders. Cant remember, if playing until vanilla levelcap is fine - need confirmation. But everything above will bind to your character clearly.

Things, that will affect your character permanently anyhow else (e.g it will be still playable after mod uninstallation, but feel/look weird):
- Custom hairstyles/haircolors. After uninstallation, your character be bald as balls. Can't remember, if it apply to custom skins.
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Needs to be Updated

Originally posted by *Yuki*:

Abysm (v.489)
Created by LarvaLounge

Blanks Landmarks
Created by Blank

Cosmetic Slots (v.26)
Created by Breck

diablo complete pack (v.1)
Created by kuroineko666

D2-like Font (v.4)
Created by availableusername

Evil UI Grittier Edition + Diablo 2 Orbs (v.6)
Created by DOOMGUY

Ink'd (v.14)
Created by Machination

LAO 2.0 Chaos Edition (v.31)
Created by RnF

Respec / Restat Potion
Created by gopher

Silent Narrator (v.1)
Created by Grand Cenobite

the goldfish exchange
Created by zParticle

Clean Floor
Created by R.I.Pieces

Running wild (v.7)
Created by Kebbek

This or that (v.0)
Created by Kebbek

Trade Gold (v.16)
Created by Kebbek

safe dialogs
Created by zParticle

Skills use LMB (v.3)
Created by MaddBomber83

Better Loot Colors
Created by Lone Wolf McQuaid

Fish Details
Created by Lone Wolf McQuaid

Mod Unbinder
Created by lyravega

Extra Chunky
Created by Abe

Sockets (v.31)
Created by Bandit

LAO 2.0 (v.34)
Created by RnF

The Endless Dungeon
Created by Wayback

The Toy Collector (Mapworks Overhaul) (v.50)
Created by Chewtoy

TEA (V1.1-656)
Created by Naelian

Fishing Add-On (v.8)
Created by Anarch16Sync

Adventurers Starting Gear (v.0)
Created by Bandit

TL1 Rifles (v.4)
Created by RnF

Enchanters Stay Put
Created by DORAMATIC

Better Tarroch's Tomb loot (v.9)
Created by Major

Adventure pack II (v.120)
Created by M4dW

zoomy light (v.1)
Created by Fatalen

Wow Uniques
Created by Puscifer91

Wand Homing Projectiles
Created by GroovyGoat

Vendor Boon (v.14)
Created by Bandit

Ubuntu Font
Created by Prophet

Unique Reroll (v.1)
Created by Bandit

Summon Creepers
Created by Zen-Hege

Fisherman's Friend (v.22)
Created by Cycles

Fish Up (v.9)
Created by Nuru’s waifu

Silencer
Created by Korgran

hide menu buttons in combat
Created by zParticle

Dungeon Challenge AG01 (v.14)
Created by Attack Gorilla

Scroll of Enigma - Teleport For All v2 (v.13)
Created by AttemptCreate

Xalderon's item overlays
Created by zParticle

8 Player MP (v.1)
Created by Runic Games

Specialized Blacksmith (v.9)
Created by Bandit

Boss Spells
Created by Zen-Hege

Hide UI/HUD (v.4)
Created by Chewtoy

fast resume and quit
Created by zParticle

Ripper's Armory (v.32)
Created by Anarch16Sync

New Champion Names
Created by Wayback

Spell Pack (AG) (v.40)
Created by Attack Gorilla

Arkham's Armory (v.14)
Created by Arkham

betterbloodeffects (v.8)
Created by Oceans

unidentified items are yellow
Created by zParticle

Master Angler (v.35)
Created by Oats

Swamp Things: Swamp Themed Weapon Pack (v.36)
Created by Lee-sha

Respec Potion (v.3)
Created by Runic Games

Rejuvenation potion recipe (v.11)
Created by Kriss_gjeng

unusable items are red
Created by zParticle

Other spell vendors
Created by M4dW

Merged HUD (v.4)
Created by Bandit

Stormshield (v.69)
Created by Aherin

NCQ - No Class Requirements
Created by Lepo

Pets be quiet (v.9)
Created by jackaho

Smarter Gambler (v.10)
Created by Adult Toys

Reiners (v9.0) Gears (new texture), Weapons (new texture), Spells and Socketables
Created by Sui

unusable items are dark
Created by zParticle

Blanks Landmarks + Extra Chunky (v.1)
Created by Vsuchinoko

Path Of Torchlight (v.127) LAYOUT FIXES
Created by Darkthan9800

Brother-in-Arms: Warbounds
Created by doudley

Ultimate Respec
Created by eudaimonia

Inventory Upgrade
Created by eudaimonia

Active Pause
Created by doudley

Potion of Insight - Enemy Detectors
Created by doudley

Auto Consume
Created by doudley

Easy Enchanting
Created by eudaimonia

Consumables Expansion
Created by eudaimonia

Z MODPACK
Created by eudaimonia

Better Vanilla
Created by eudaimonia

Balance Patch
Created by eudaimonia

RnFs Skill Spells v1.3a Normal
Created by RnF

LurkerHUD (v.56)
Created by 血羽

Originally posted by *Yuki*:

For everyone, who wanna enhance their tl2 experience, but afraid of starting new game with each mod loadout.
Obviosly, this collection contains not every bindless mod, but only those, I've tried myself (to grant, that they shouldnt cause problems). Feel free to post more in description and I ll add it!

All credits goes to authors of mods. Pic on collection page taken from Uchuu Patrol Luluco by Trigger

Note: ever if mods in this collection wont bind to your saves, you will lose stuff, they provides (if exists), on disable. Please, keep it in mind and dont forget to make backups before changing loadouts.

Yet another note: please, take in mind, that some mods will work only in singleplayer.
To check it without installing mod, you can use this: https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=717988868

Originally posted by *Yuki*:

Mods that only work in single player, for some reason (actually, you can enable em in multiplayer too, but then your game will crash or character bugged, so - that's highly not recommended).

Feel free to post more similar stuff in commentaries!

PS: All rights of mods belongs to their authors. Background image and icon taken from Uchuu Patrol Luluco by Trigger

Originally posted by *Yuki*:

Cosmetic Slots (v.26)
Created by Breck

The Endless Dungeon
Created by Wayback

Nethermancer Class (v.5568)
Created by Haette

Adventure pack II (v.120)
Created by M4dW

Dracos Merged Pack Singleplayer (v.23)
Created by Draco1122

Apocalypse Mod (v.7)
Created by DraconiusKnight

level and fame mod (v.4)
Created by Kriss_gjeng

Active Pause
Created by doudley

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Originally posted by leontrig:

what mods are you guys using that don't crash the game? I came back after a long hiatus and haven't figured out which ones to remove yet to make it playable. :p

If your mod game is crashing repeatedly then follow these steps:

Go to Documents > My Games > Runic Games > Torchlight 2 > There's a mod save folder here.

Turn on TL2 and pause at the Mod Launcher where mods are selected.

Keeping the Mod Selection Launcher open- delete the entire Mod Save Folder then start game.

Once at the main menu of the game- exit game. Turn TL2 on again and start game again.

= = =

If there was a mod that was binding onto the mod save which was causing crashes then that will solve it.

There is a somewhat outdated yet useful list made for mods that don't bind to mod saves or cause minimal loss of data when removed.

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=710657313

Is a Person defined by a Skill or a Class:
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/200710/discussions/0/133255603285071449/

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I also want to start by saying there is no right or wrong with this question...

I literally want your very own personal opinion and viewpoint on this matter...

Feel free to agree, be neutral or counter me or anyone-

-else {nicely} ^_^ so we can have a fair discussion from all sides on a topic that should be talked about...

This will help everyone... especially future modders, mods and future games.

= = =

Sometimes a modder wants to create a person inside a combat game...

= = =

However there is a problem...

= = =

If a Class = a Person: It requires many Classes to represent many People.

if a Class = the Culture of a Person: then is must represent the various parts of it.
^^^credit to "RnF" for mentioning this^^^ #10.

If a Reliable Method = a Person: This affects whether a "War Style" is reliable in game.
^^^I credit "Kebbek" for bringing this up^^^ #34.

If Skill Tree = a Person: it means the trees themselves must represent People.
^^^I credit "ADEC Inc" for pointing this out^^^ #2.

how about Skills = a Character? Skills are a very personal way to 'tune' a Character to a developmental direction - I often use Range as a catalyst for Character development.
^^^I credit "Zyguma Beach" for this statement^^^ #1.1

If Skills = a Person: It means a Class must represent many People within itself.

If Clothing = a Person: It means many clothing sets need to be added to represent People.

If a Companion = a Person: It means the Summons and Helpers must represent People.
^^^I credit "doudley" for helping me see this^^^ #45.

If a Player = a Person: It means that the choices of the Player define the Person.
^^^I credit "doudley" for this thoughtful view^^^ #44.

= = =

The problem is simple...

= = =

does the modder choose to make a large class pack of similar skills?

[Same Arrow- Different Element.]

= = =

Or make a small class pack of vastly different skills?

{Different techniques- Less Variation.}

= = = I also credit "ADEC Inc" for pointing out my need for further {detail} below. #2.

Personally I'm thinking of representing 11 People in a Twin {2} Class Pack which have almost the same skills [between the Twin Classes] yet very diverse skills [within the Classes] but are visually different, have an opposite double element type theme, give vastly different stat bonuses when gaining charge and add 11 clothing sets x2 which also represent those People.

{The middle Tree is a mix of the 2 element themes.}

= = = I credit "potterman28wxcv" for pointing out the need to write my reasons below. #1.

And to prove "all" of my questions and points above- I will post links to all the current "unique" class packs from TL2's recent past below. {Specifically ones made by the same author or team because this is a very important factor to consider.}

If you have played these class packs then you will notice that:

Darkthan's Classes: Hunter Class: has a Tree that is basically:

{Same Arrow- Different Element.}

However the Noxmer pack contains a "Super Combined" Class that represents 2 Characters...

Which allows it great flexibility with skill options but less room to fit diverse options of the same skill.

{Different techniques- Less Variation.}

The other class pack links included offer similar evidence to all of the above.

They prove that Classes which define Characters restrict those characters [read war techniques] to the Class itself...

Far East proves this even more than Synergies by the fact that a Kensei can be similar to a Ronin but cannot be a Mongolian Archer.

"Skill = Character" has everything to do with flexibility within a Class to literally "morph" into a totally different character {War technique}...

"Clothihg = Character" means the Class can "change" character [war style] by simply wearing armor sets that "allow" the player to "play" the role and gear stats associated with that Person.

"Class = Character" restricts the class to be only of itself. This is good when creating large class packs like the Far East as they lead to intensely focused skill personality.

= = =

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=136232408&searchtext=synergies

Use these two together. Extra goes above Synergies.

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=625832587&searchtext=synergies

= = =

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=170299996&searchtext=Far+East

Use these two together. The 2nd goes above the 1st.

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=193078054&searchtext=Far+East

= = =

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=275166654&searchtext=darkthan

= = =

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=698429323&searchtext=tl1

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https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=142783967&searchtext=Noxmer

= = =

Yes, I am aware of the packs of:

Awesome Classes, Additional Add On-

-and many others that seek the same goal of adding many individual Classes.

However note I am specifically referring to Classes that were created by the same author or team and designed with each other's Story in mind in the same pack.

Yet this entire topic also applies to individual mods as well and I encourage everyone to include them in their reply along with the packs as reference if needed.

= = =

Please post your opinions, thoughts, comparisons and more... I want to hear them.

Because this is a crucial topic for the entire game genre and it affects creativity all over the world which then-

-affects the games and mods "we" all play.

= = =

Thank you for your time.

= = =

Perfect New Runic World:
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/200710/discussions/0/1842440600621657886/

I have to give massive credit @ "HiFive" For starting this thought provoking dialog with a very good question that deserved a detailed answer:

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Originally posted by HiFive:

The new company making Torchlight Frontiers wants it to be a sequel to the Torchlight series, but making it an MMO is completely off from the original spirit of the game. Why?

1) Because the reason for making a game an MMO is always to give the creators a constant source of ongoing revenue. To achieve that, an MMO is designed to make the game a little uncomfortable to play until the player buys things from a game shop and/or pays a monthly fee for certain benefits. I also don't like having to be constantly online to play a game.

2) Since an MMO is a perpetual source of revenue, the game will continue to be modified in major ways to create more income for the managing company. It will also be sold to other companies in the future, who will make other changes, until the game is much different than it's original self.

3) MMO players are much different than solo or co-op players. They have a different mind-set and different approach to their gaming. They are generally much more fickle in their gaming choices. They follow fads. They follow crowds. They seek to impress their fellow gamers.

4) On an MMO, all the human social issues are present with the added disadvantage of social anonymity. The dynamics of playing a game where people are playing against each other, combined with this anonymity, creates an atmosphere conducive to nasty behavior. There are no jails to incarcerate the nasty people, no rehab centers to help people overcome their bad habits, no public venues (schools, churches, non-profits) to teach players good ethics, and social mores. It's basically a social jungle where civilized society and civilized behavior gets lost in the pursuit of being the best player or team of players on the game. Top that with a constantly changing population. In this social jungle we never know who we will meet. It could be someone who is an ax murderer in real life, or someone who decides to behave like one even though they are a "solid good citizen" in real life. Even if you find out that the person is awful, as long as you continue to play that game, you will likely be exposed to them again.

Now picture a soccer game where whoever is playing on the field always changes and all the players are wearing costumes to make it impossible to know who they are. Also, there is no referee. The rules are extremely basic, so there is very little rule-breaking and almost anything goes as long as you win. Many of the players are young, immature children, or even younger, impressionable children, who are mixed in with all sorts of adults, many of whom are very nasty people. Every player has choices as to how to communicate. Some are speaking to each other verbally. Some are texting each other. Some are texting the entire game community (picture various newscasters on the teams). Now add the real-life dangers of playing in such a community, with people seeking to phish personal information from players in chat or trying to hack other player's computers or hack the game, or trying to sell third-party stuff, or do horrible things to naive children.

When I play a game I want to relax and just have fun. Adding all those social issues by playing with strangers is more stressful than most people realize.

It's sad that the Torchlight II creators decided to redirect themselves to a different type of game (HOB) and then decided to disband, instead of simply focusing on doing what they do very, very well, and making Torchlight III. With Torchlight Frontiers, this new team is again making a different genre of game: an MMO. I'm extremely thankful that there are still tons of games being made that are not MMO's.

Points 1 through 4: I agree.

I need to inform you of something before and after those points regarding how the Torchlight developers actually saw things- even if I disagree with them, it's still the truth.

= = =

Certain people behind Torchlight before it even began were already planning at some point to reach an Mmo stage for the franchise.
I'll Link some info here where those words were mentioned.

https://www.torchlightfansite.com/vaultwiki/rgf-s-runic-games-wiki/693-history-torchlight.html

It is impossible to tell the story of Runic Games and Torchlight without covering what brought all of us here: a little network test that grew up into a game called Mythos.
Jason Beck, From the Ashes of Mythos: The Art of Torchlight

The action RPG MMO Mythos developed though a series of closed alpha and beta tests during 2007-2008, accumulating an enthusiastic fanbase and supporters among the gaming press. The game was approaching open beta in the summer of 2008. However, Flagship Studios suffered financial disaster and was forced to shut down. The Mythos intellectual property and resources fell into the hands of Flagship's former financial partner HanbitSoft.

In hindsight, the developers have expressed that the loss of Mythos -- while painful -- opened the path to a new, superior game:
We put a lot of love into ''Mythos'', so of course it was sad to lose it so close to completion. It really sucked to have to start over, but after a few months of work it became clear that ''Torchlight'' was going to be a better game, and that made us feel a whole lot better about things. These days, we're just excited about the current project, and we view ''Mythos'' as an elaborate test run for what we're making now.
Wonder Russell, PCGames.de interview

May 17, 2010. Shortly after the announcement of 500,000 copies sold and the release of the Mac OS X port, Perfect World Entertainment released a Financial Report revealing that they had made a "strategic investment" in Runic Games. Below are key sections of the Investment Announcement:

As a part of our growth strategy, we continuously monitor the market for acquisition opportunities that will generate synergies with our core business. I am excited to announce some recent developments on this front. We recently made a strategic investment to acquire a majority stake in Runic Games, Inc. ("Runic Games"), a top-tier game development studio based in the U.S., to further strengthen our R&D capabilities. By collaborating more closely with Runic's professional team, we seek to combine their creativity and expertise in game development with our deep understanding of the online game market to create global titles.
http://www.itnewsonline.com/showprns...storyid=101073
Investment in Runic Games, Inc.

In May 2010, the Company acquired a majority stake in Runic Games, a specialized developer of PC-based entertainment software in the U.S., at the consideration of approximately US$8.4 million. Runic Games has a team of experienced developers, including leads on "Diablo," "Diablo II," "Diablo II: Lord of Destruction," "Fate," "Hellgate: London" and "Mythos." Runic Games has developed and released a single-player action-RPG "Torchlight," and is currently developing the MMORPG version of "Torchlight." This strategic investment will allow the Company to further enhance its strong R&D capabilities, and leverage Runic Games' creative and professional development team to create global titles through enhanced control and a closer collaboration.
http://www.itnewsonline.com/showprns...storyid=101073

The announcement created quite a stir within the community, resulting in nearly 80 pages worth of discussion. Before push could become shove, developer Volbard chimed in to ease the tension:

Don't worry too much about this business stuff, it's not going to have much impact on the games we make.

Being acquired by Perfect World has been part of our plan since before we started Runic; not as a certainty but as a very strong probability. Game development is too expensive for us to undertake without a strong partner, and PW has been good enough to fund us while giving us free rein to design and develop. We're still cruising along on our next project, with no real design input from PW at all.

Really, the big thing to take away from this is that Runic gets to keep making games without worry about going out of business for several years at least. In an unstable industry like ours, that's pretty sweet!
Volbard, Official Forum Post

Later, Max Schaefer himself explained the situation in more detail:

Hey, I thought I'd weigh in on this.

This development is the culmination of a long and well-planned partnership with Perfect World. We selected Perfect World among other partners, including major US Publishers, because they are exactly the right partner for Runic Games going into the future. As we move into developing multi-player games with more sophisticated communities, business models, and for a global market, it is vitally important for a company like us to forge a strong partnership with a publisher that is experienced and successful in operating large-scale PC games, managing communities, and basically handling all the crazy logistics that we are not experts in. From their perspective, we bring a fresh game design sensibility, and a western take on game design as they globalize their business. Most importantly, the guys at Perfect World are gamers and good people - we've been working with them for a long time now, and we feel our talents and goals mesh perfectly. So we're very happy at Runic Games to make this all official. This will do nothing but help our game development, and allow us to focus on what it is we do best.

Max Schaefer
CEO, Runic Games
Max Schaefer, Official Forum Post

Strangely, Torchlight (1 and 2) were in fact not their ultimate plan rather it was their necessity to build up the franchise at the time.

http://torchlight.wikia.com/wiki/Torchlight_MMO

In interviews and forum discussions from several years ago, Runic developers stated that the Torchlight MMO was conceived as a free-to-play (F2P) game which would feature an in-game cash shop. This cash shop would sell items and maps which would not affect the balance of gameplay, therefore not giving those who decide to purchase items from the shop an advantage over those who don't.

With that said, it did appear there was some divergence within Runic Games staying within the Dungeon Crawler genre:

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/214020/Runic_founders_Baldree_and_Schaefer_leaving_to_go_indie.php

https://www.gizorama.com/2018/interview/rebel-galaxy-outlaw-interview-with-president-of-double-damage-games

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUCoec2cP3s

So it's not surprising when this happened:

https://www.polygon.com/2017/11/3/16605008/runic-games-closes-motiga-layoffs

followed by:

https://www.gamereactor.eu/grtv/401463/Torchlight+Frontiers+Max+Schaeffer+Interview/

Echtra Games' Max Schaeffer explains to us how it is that Torchlight is finally becoming what it was originally meant to be, an MMO.

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Originally posted by HiFive:

AintJack: I agree. Co-Op is a better and safer solution for giving people the option to play together, and they even stated that in their video when they announced the launch of Torchlight II.

They seem to have initially wanted to do an MMO. They released the original Torchlight as a sample of what they could do to prove to MMO corporations that they had a worthy project. Then they seemed to backtrack on the MMO idea with Torchlight II (was it deception, or genuine misgivings?), and are finally back on track to produce an MMO.

Part of it is most likely fear of this happening again:

Originally posted by https://www.torchlightfansite.com/vaultwiki/rgf-s-runic-games-wiki/693-history-torchlight.html :

The action RPG MMO Mythos developed though a series of closed alpha and beta tests during 2007-2008, accumulating an enthusiastic fanbase and supporters among the gaming press. The game was approaching open beta in the summer of 2008. However, Flagship Studios suffered financial disaster and was forced to shut down. The Mythos intellectual property and resources fell into the hands of Flagship's former financial partner HanbitSoft.

This is probably what drives them to keep good relations with a larger partner and therefore adopt anything that larger partner favors.

Now they have said on Discord and past interviews that they keep the ability to decide what kind of payment models are chosen.

So this "delicate balance" is something they continue to believe in as a possibility otherwise Frontiers wouldn't be such a drive for them to develop.

Originally posted by HiFive:

This article was also interesting:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=23442

Some quotes from the article:

"The team has an interesting launch strategy for Torchlight; to gradually introduce to universe to a Western audience more familiar with the Diablo style of gameplay in a single-player context, Runic will launch a U.S. and Europe-only single-player version this year, ahead of the full MMO.

'It's just a way for us to get our feet wet... get the title out there, get people looking at it,' Schaefer explains. 'This will let the team have a published title and get the IP out there, and let people get to know the Torchlight universe and what to expect from the MMO when it comes out. We've already started on all the network stuff.'

and

"So Torchlight is shaping up to be a real core gamer's game -- precisely the sort of audience that has tended to resist the business model migration towards microtransactions. Is Schaefer concerned?

'First, hardcore gamers are just passionate and serious about their games -- there's really no good way to get money from them,' he laughs. 'It really all depends on how you implement it. If it's one of the games that's free-to-play, and you can optionally do item transactions -- but the reality is its a missed experience unless you pay a lot of money, that's gonna turn people off.'

Allowing players to buy themselves into the best character is no good strategy either, Schaefer says. 'The things you're selling have to be fun and useful, but it can't alienate the people who are not paying. You have to really make that a reality and not just a perception, because they'll see right through you... hardcore gamers know more about your game than you do. It's all just a delicate balance.' "

end of quotes

So Schaefer admits there is a delicate sort of manipulation going on to get core RPG gamers to spend money on an MMO. This is what Asian MMO companies are very good at: manipulation. I've witnessed all the very sneaky tactics they use. Through social manipulation (staffers posing as players in the game and on forums), or through trickery, or direct controls, a corporation like Perfect World will do this to reach their monetary goals.

This clearly reveals their intent on taking the franchise towards a MMO stage.

I read this as they are self aware of the unavoidable problems this will present as it divides some of the Torchlight players away while retaining those who:

1: Enjoy anything released that is Torchlight.

or

2: Are willing to see "if" this MMO is worth it.

These are the kind of players that Echtra and Perfect World ultimately need for Frontiers to succeed.

Meanwhile, The TL2 Community is indirectly contributing to this MMO since TL2's Ip is basically owned by Perfect World.

Originally posted by HiFive:

So Schaefer admits there is a delicate sort of manipulation going on to get core RPG gamers to spend money on an MMO. This is what Asian MMO companies are very good at: manipulation. I've witnessed all the very sneaky tactics they use. Through social manipulation (staffers posing as players in the game and on forums), or through trickery, or direct controls, a corporation like Perfect World will do this to reach their monetary goals.

An admission that not all players will pay therefore won't contribute to the business.

They will have to get the "other" players who don't consider- or don't care about these details to make the difference.

And in the end... It's in their "User Agreement" to access their product by their rules and payment systems.

As long as players understand that Frontiers is "not" TL2's payment model.

I equally don't like micro payments from smartphone games yet we (those of us who prefer to only pay once for game access) are clearly not their target customers either.

As for the questionable tactics well Echtra better keep their hands clean for the sake of their business.

If Perfect World steps into Frontier's decision making in the future then it won't go unnoticed.

= = =

Thing is...

I like this place. The modding, community and other stuff.

Whatever happens to Frontiers... I'll just have to wait and see how it affects TL2 either way.

Also I don't know how Perfect World sees TL2 itself in the long term. Very little direct evidence on that besides the expected hype this company has for it to be profitable for the franchise.

Now Echtra and previously Runic claimed that they make the decisions on these games.

Although there "was" that TL Mobile game officially licensed to another studio that is no longer with us.

= = =

Fortunately I learned so much from being here. There were certain Torch Modders that did so much for me and in turn I was able to help players with that info.

This isn't the only community I have in my contribution life however I do care about it's health.

= = =

The only recent Dungeon Crawler with a developer background like Runic Games that I'm aware of that hasn't gone MMO is Crate Entertainment's "Grim Dawn" although that community has a different atmosphere.

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Originally posted by HiFive:

Wow, Steffire3! How on earth did you find all of this stuff, let alone have the desire to find it all?

It's very interesting, just to see what you have here. I have not yet looked at any of the links you have provided, but I will, and I may get back to you on those, but so far this really changes my views quite a bit.

Silly, naive me, misinterpreted their videos from previous launches as people that were the "small town" version of the gaming world, and not interested in the corporate manipulations of MMO's, but rather just making fun games for RPG enthusiasts. It seems their true colors are showing now and their own hopes and dreams are finally being realized. We can all be extremely thankful that somehow they ended up making a solo RPG and then a co-op/solo RPG first.

I remember their video announcing Torchlight II. After years of waiting - finally - a video with 2 nice guys talking about the offering at a very reasonable price to make it accessible to as many people as possible, and being slightly coy about the graphics of the game, making us worry that perhaps they didn't come out so good, before blurting out that the graphics were beautiful! Also, explaining how they had designed it to be easily modified by the gaming community, and then posting a few initial mods to encourage the community to do so. "Don't worry. It's legitimate. We designed the game to let you do this. We want to encourage you to do this." It couldn't help but give everyone the warm fuzzies, and the game did not dissapoint. It was everything we hoped for and more. The modders eventually all got on board and to this day people are still making new mods. Such a story! It feels like Christmas thinking about it!

Anyway, back to here and now: When very large amounts of money are in potential play......

I think I'll finally bury any and all hopes I may have ever had that some day we will get another non-MMO Torchlight, since all RPG's (okay, just a lot, or maybe most, of them) seem to eventually fall into the irresistible gravitational field of the black hole named MMO!

I will now modify my description of the genre of game that I like to play most:

The initial offerings of RPG developers who have not yet landed an MMO contract with a large corporation.

Thank you, Yoda. I have been enlightened.

• 1st, you're welcome. Glad to find evidence when possible and help players where I can.
  
  I also thank you for finding that Gamasutra article above and extending this conversation.
  
  And if I may extend your final note:
  
  

  Ben: That... ... is our only hope.
  Yoda: No... ...there is another.

  
  
• 2nd, It was the TL communities that kept bringing these articles up separately throughout the years and some people decided to stash these treasures in certain places.
  
  So it's them that should be thanked the most otherwise I would be left with nothing to answer with except mere opinions on TL history and that wouldn't be very effective.
  
  As for my desire to look for this stuff well that was because of some very wonderful people who once helped an ignorant new player understand TL and thrive in this community.
  
  It's awful not to know and therefore get stuck. I vowed I would do what I can to change that wherever I go within the restrictions of my busy life.
  
  I just returned to these communities from a 4 month absence and it wasn't the first time I've been pulled away from here by life priorities yet I'm always drawn back here for various reasons.
  
  
• 3rd, I'm glad you found this stuff helpful and your views combined with many others certainly help me understand the responsibilities game developers have with their players.
  
  
• 4th, I feel similarly where I just don't know how micro payments can be trusted unless there's consistency like Path of Exile's monetary model.
  
  
• 5th, addressing the larger part of your comment:
  It's hard to pinpoint the views within a Studio since some people really just want to build games while others are looking at the big picture.
  
  On top of that there's developers who want to build other game genres yet get stuck with the ones they became associated with.
  
  It's easy to target Publishers since they have to feed their business or get swallowed by another so it's difficult for them to think of players outside any major issues.
  
  Yet ultimately that's the price to pay for developers who willingly or begrudgingly choose to work with corporations.
  
  Who knows if the fear of bankruptcy or the feeling of needing to keep the product in the profitable light or perhaps just wanting more funds is involved here and with whom exactly.
  
  I've seen people praise and condemn sometimes the same game developers for different reasons. Sometimes there's even clashing between players on where a franchise should go. Then the reasonable arguments to redirect a franchise get lost in the chaos.
  
  Yet if someone is willing to hear what has been recorded then I'll gladly inform them on what we do know and where we are going and why I may choose to help certain sections of a community while keeping an eye on future decisions made by the directors.
  
  Speculation may never end on those topics. I'm just here for the interview evidence and helping players of TL know that the MMO plan was always there at the beginning.
  
  I wouldn't want players to assume this franchise's future is something it's not.
  
  I like the TL2 modders and players involved. I have a certain loyalty to their involvement as long as this franchise and my own available time allow.

Originally posted by HiFive:

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I actually agree on all the points you have made. I understand it's all a very complex process to make decisions regarding popular games, because it takes a great deal of time and money to make them. I'm curious to see what happens, so I follow their announcements, but I'll never play an MMO with other people again.

I've played Diablo III solo until I completely exhausted my interest in it, but before I left it, I did try activating the multi-player version of it, to see if it was any different than what I had experienced at other MMO's. Just then, a guildmaster was advertising his guild and another player, who had been kicked out for, apparently good reasons, began a nasty argument with him. Yup! The same. Life is too short to spend my game time with that stuff.

Originally posted by Palad1n:

A real shame, seems the devs sold out to PWI and thus, we have a F2P Torchlight game that will sadly attract a lot of hafckers, cheaters, etc.

With no buy in cost, F2P games continue the proven long trend of attracting those that lurk and enjoy ruining online experiences for others. Since PWI is hosting the servers and there is currently no plans to allow you to make a private server setup, it will turn away a lot of gamers who want to avoid the bad apples.

Also fully expect PWI's traditional pay stores with all sorts of questionable choices. I feel the Torchlight brand would do so much better if the original devs would focus on making a proper Torchlight 3 instead of this mmo.

Will see how things go later in the year, my bar is set fairly low as a result knowing from a lot of past experiences what F2P games brings.

Originally posted by AB:

Well "Torchlight Frontiers" is on the way :))
Torchlight meets Path Of Exile, Looks really promising!

I need a place to send people to gain knowledge...
I mean get good info on this game. ^_^

So I don't want to transfer all my writings all at once...
yet- that's basically what I want to do... lol.

I don't know when exactly. When a window opens then I'll jump through it!
My "Windows" that is!

Puns aside.
I need to transfer my profile's linked Steam Discussion info over here... somehow.

There's more I want to do however "one" step... at a time... (or is it "Over Time"?)

After all... I need to increase my APS... "Activity per Second" when I am Steaming down the railroad of the Torchlight Communities here and elsewhere like the Torch Modders. ^_^

Thanks for your time and please feel free to request membership to contribute to these discussions if you wish.

Unless you have nefarious intentions... O_o

I have a Two Handed Ban Hammer and I played Engineer for years so...
I'm "experienced". XD.

Have a good day and enjoy all that is Torchlight !! ^_^