Originally posted by CHAWLZ!:

Originally posted by AwesomeGuyDj:

1. No ones going to communicate. 2. If you wanted to chain stabs just use yer. 3. I dont really even see a point to this weapon. 4. What you stated is litterally why i dont see a point to this weapon, its unfun. The current version is unfun to fight against, and the old one was unfun to fight against.

1. This is a pretty pessimistic view to have! I find the server to be pretty active discussion-wise, and see a lot of good teamwork efforts on a regular basis. Of course this depends entirely on who's online, but in the case of a good portion of the regulars this is true.
2. Your Eternal Reward can, indeed, be used to chain backstabs, but provides a significantly different tool to do so, and comes with its own very different risk. In the end both weapons can be used to fairly similar effect, but both change your playstyle in significantly different ways.
3. I posted three paragraphs explaining, in detail, how the weapon changes up the Spy's playstyle and what good the weapon can do, and why players would be iclined to use it. There's really not a lot mroe I can tell you.
4. Would you mind explaining how it's any more unfun then being backstabbed by a regular Spy Knife? As I stated before the choice to remove the sound effect for the victim was partially to remove the "unfun" feeling of dread and uselessness after failing to kill the Spy stabbing you, and the removal of the disguise-keeping provides, again, opportunities for teamwork-based counterplay, not just for the victim, but for the victim's teammates. A race to defeat the Spy and save your friend's life! That sounds pretty exciting to me.

So you say that its good because it changes the flow, but werent you the one saying how lores handyman would be bad because it changes the pace and role of scout?

Originally posted by CHAWLZ!:

Originally posted by AwesomeGuyDj:

Give dettonaire backstab noise back.

Now this here is a very interesting point of discussion to me, and also a design decision I have put a lot of thought into, and stand very strongly behind.

Before I start I'd like to take a step back and discuss the Spy as a class. As I stated in my previous post, the Spy is a "high-effort, low-yield" class. What I mean by this isn't that he's useless, or underpowered, or can't effectively carry a team to victory. In fact, the reality is quite the opposite. The Spy has the ability to turn around games entirely with a single minor victory. This could be anything from destroying a pesky Sentry, taking out an extremely key target such as a charged Medic, or even sneeky-breeky capping the final point moments after the previous point is taken. However, he has very poor base damage output, no "real" mobility options, is insanely fragile, and becomes significantly less powerful against enemies that keep a certain level of awareness. To even get a single kill, a Spy more or less has to potentially outplay the entire enemy team using his surprisingly limited toolset. After all, he's one of the two classes in the game with a guaranteed, 100% one-hit kill attack, so it's only fair that he put a lot of effort in to get that kill.

This brings me to my main point: When a Spy gets a backstab, he's earned that kill. You can meme about facestabs, lagstabs, or goofy angles all you want, but that's the long and short of it. It's part of the reason Valve really hasn't strayed away from this effect for their unlockable knives, and instead focused more on changing up his playstyle with his cloak. Now's where it starts getting intersting: Le Dettonaire takes away the Spy's instantaneous gratification for his efforts. Pressing mouse 1 on an enemy's back, instead of immediately giving your team an advantage, delays the effects and puts the Spy in another potentially dangerous situation. There are two situations we're going to be talking about here: The previous variant (Enemy is alerted they have been stabbed) and the current (The bomb is mostly silent). Previously, after the Spy has already gone through the effort to outplay his opponent and get the stab, the enemy is suddenly put into a situation where they can redeem themselves, and are actively encouraged to. If the Spy gets the kill then hey, congratulations, he's spent four extra precious seconds (Which, in Team Fortress 2's combat, is a very, very long time) gaining the kill at effectively no benefit to himself. As I said previously, the Spy is a very fragile class though, and 4/9 classes can very, very easily turn around and destroy the (now cloakless) Spy, and continue on their merry way. Here's the real kicker though: If the Spy DOES manage to turn a corner and escape, his victim is now entirely on borrowed time, feeling entirely defenseless, and can do nothing but twiddle their thumbs waiting to die, which can be frustrating. As you can see here this dynamic creates scenarios that are potentially unfun for both parties, isn't at all beneficial to anyone, least of all the Spy equipping the weapon, which makes it undesirable as an optimal tool.

With the current changes (no sound, disguise is dropped on backstab) this dynamic changes entirely. The Spy gets his stab, and could potentially get away with it, and no longer needs to immediately attempt to escape, and can even press his luck and attempt to tag multiple targets if the situation calls for it. However, if the Spy doesn't consider his surroundings his target's teammates could very well call him out on his bullshit and stop him right there. This is subtley different from the previous incarnation in that instead of forcing an uninteresting encounter that neither party wants to be part of, it creates more dynamic skrimishes between a Spy and the enemy team and encourages more teamplay ("A spy just planted a bomb in you, Engineer! Turn around!"). This much more closely resembles my original design goals for the weapon (Allow the Spy to trade his immediate reward for the potential to chain multiple kills and even deal collateral damage, spreading chaos throughout), and opens up not just a new way for the Spy to perform his role, but effects the flow of the game in a way that's engaging, rewards specific and useful skills (awareness, communication with teammates, identifying threats). Of course the weapon will still have its issues (knife still makes light stabbing sound which can end in encounters like previous discussed in quiet environments, players can feel "cheated" out of their chance to live), but I feel despite that the benefits, novelty, and new ways to play the weapon introduce far outweigh the negatives.

1. No ones going to communicate. 2. If you wanted to chain stabs just use yer. 3. I dont really even see a point to this weapon. 4. What you stated is litterally why i dont see a point to this weapon, its unfun. The current version is unfun to fight against, and the old one was unfun to fight against.

Originally posted by Crafting | cTF2w:

Originally posted by AwesomeGuyDj:

Dettonaire doesnt play sound on stab anymore. (fix this now!)

It's not broken, because it was removed.

yeah, i know that now.

Give dettonaire backstab noise back.

Ekatrina,
-35% healing from healing sources

Dettonaire doesnt play sound on stab anymore. (fix this now!)

Originally posted by Loreknight:

Originally posted by AwesomeGuyDj:

Also, this server is about weapons that wouldnt make it real game. The jump action shotgun would never make it into the real game (COUGH its shit COUGH)

You really have a problem, mate.
There. Is. Nothing. Wrong. WITH TESTING SHIT!

I never said it was wrong. Im encouraging it saying go wild, its about wacky weapons that wouldnt be in the real game.

Originally posted by Loreknight:

Originally posted by CHAWLZ!:

SHARP SHOOTER:
I feel like this weapon wouldn't really suit Heavy or Soldier's playstyle, as the Sharp Shooter as it stands benefits largely to shotty/melee-heavy play where it would be significantly less useful on the two slowest classes in the game who both have primary weapons that are far more useful in 90% of regular in-game situations. On Engineer I'm on the fence because it also doesn't really suit his personality to turn around a shotgun and start using it as a melee weapon, but he could use both parts to great effect and primary Sharp Shooter could turn out pretty clutch under the right circumstances.

CONVENTIONAL:
Could absolutely work, the crits would be especially powerful for Engineer as he can hide behind his Sentry to pick off players trying to outrange his Sentry, but the marked-for-death leaves him super vulnerable, too.

MARAUDER'S MACE:
Demoman already efectively has this weapon's gimmick through the Iron Boots. Also, as an Advanced Weaponiser legacy weapon I'd personally rather it stay as a Soldier item.

TEXAN HEATMAKER:
Considering the weapon is an extremely blatant and unapologetic spychecking tool, I feel like the Scout wouldn't really benefit much from this tool. Plus, players already find it irritating enough being ignited by the Condiment Cannon, does Scout really need another item that exists solely to be irritating?

MELF'S MAGIC POTION:
No opinion either way, really.

AUSSIE POSSIE TRAP:
The whole weapon's gimmick is that it's a stickybomb launcher for the Sniper (with added effect). If you give it to the Demoman, it's just a stickybomb launcher for the Demoman (with added effect). That's not particularly interesting!

MELEE BOOSTER:
Whether it replaced the Grenade Launcher or the Stickybomb Launcher, the Demoman would simply not benefit from this. It works for Scout because he is very fast and can viably approach enemies to smack them with his melee. In vanilla TF2 this is balanced by the fact that he has the second-to-worst melee in the game damage-wise, and what the Melee Booster is designed around. Demoman is just too slow, and his explosives/shield provide him with more benefits then the Melee Booster ever could.


As far as the Handyman's wrench-effects, they're really neither here nor there. On one hand, a Scout has no reason to really be hanging out around Engineer nests when he could be out performing his actual role of getting picks on key targets and causing chaos on enemies in combat. On the other hand, this weapon's existance could provide an un-needed subtle buff to tf2's already very powerful defensive game, where a Spy who successfully plans out an assault on an Engineer's nest could have all his hard work undone by a passing Scout who just happens to have the weapon equipped, or by executing his plan and having no way to know a Scout he's decided isn't important can save the Engineer's sentry gun while the Spy is busy attempting to escape to safety. There are more elements to my opinion of the function but the gist of it is that it's potentially very messy for the flow of the game and I think it's much more beneficial for everyone if this specific encounter-type isn't muddled too much in that sort of direction.

Mate.did you know that trying things doesn't hurt? Just give em to donators only for now, let us test them. I will NOT let you just fucking instantly say no because they MIGHT fucking works and they might not. I thought custom weapons were allowed to change roles of classes? Are you against a helpful supportive scout, or do you want him to continue to be a self-helping shitbag?
Trying them does no harm,. This server was MADE for testing these kind of things.

Also, this server is about weapons that wouldnt make it real game. The jump action shotgun would never make it into the real game (COUGH its shit COUGH)

Soldier/med combo wombo.
Any soldier primary,
Berserk banner
any soldier melee.
Medic.
Only one thing required,
blitzstorm. you get the idea.

Metal shield doesnt work i dont think.
Atleast it doesnt take away metal while being damaged.