Originally posted by LegoFan9o5:

The Shellshocker has been seen to leech over to the Engineer's melee weapon, allowing for a Gunslinger to double hit and crit-hit in a matter of a second.

OR for le old reliable to be the
MAXIMUM TURTLE POWER

Needs testing: when using widowmaker against defender, it like deletes all your metal.

Originally posted by LegoFan9o5:

Originally posted by AwesomeGuyDj:

Thing is with this, there are better pyro secondaries.
The stock (like you said) or the panic attack all allow for decent burst shotgun damage on a fairly mobile and fairly beefy class.

Exactly. I think that it needs a good buff as the "1-clip warrior" that the ammo-chewing Family Buisness or the metal sapping Widowmaker to have a run for their money.

Now there needs to be a pretty good way to make this weapon viable for Heavy and Soldier while not making it broken to Pyro. The oldest version of the weapon accomplished this by having more potential ammunition in the clip when you needed it the most, after you gained a kill and likely emptied the clip, but bugged with primary ammo at times. Honestly, that was the best component that directly fit the weapon's goal to have the weapon ready and made it viable, like having it reload while inactive.

...wait a minute.
Raiding Aid (Shotgun: Soldier, Heavy, & Pyro)
On kill: Increase clip size by 1 shot, up to 8 shots
Reloads while inactive
75% slower reload
-50% base clip size
maybe a reserved ammo decrease?

This way, you have a weapon that allows the classes like the Heavy or Pyro to empty their clips and switch off to their other weapons while they do their job and come home to a readily loaded shotty. Removed from Engineer, as his main weapon would be the shotty, and would have more use with the WM. All this potentail I think would be balanced out by the slow reload and very winded nature when exausted fully, making the potential kill much more possible with auto-reload off hands and very unlikely when empty. To compensate, a potential downside of less reserved ammo may serve well, if needed at all.

honestly, this is what the panic attack should be like tbh.

Originally posted by LegoFan9o5:

This is by and large a Pyro Shotgun, with alternatives and playstyles simply denying this weapon's useful qualities to shine when you need kills to set up what was simply there all along.

Thing is with this, there are better pyro secondaries.
The stock (like you said) or the panic attack all allow for decent burst shotgun damage on a fairly mobile and fairly beefy class.

I want to actually punch loreknight in the face.
We have said multiple times we dont mean directly double healing.

Originally posted by Loreknight:

Originally posted by LegoFan9o5:

On my previous point: YES it does heal equivalently 2x more HP. The heal rate is the same for stock Heavy as the IS Heavy. Now, at 50% less damage, you have equivalently 600 HP, even though your base HP is 300. Now, that healing factor is still at the same rate as before, thus is giving the Heavy the same healing to his base health, which would benefit from the damage resistance and effectively grant healing twice as effective as before.

On your rework: It just does not adress the issue of having that Heavy being healed and protected, having a bit of unintended spam and that resist to stack up and get us back to the same point of having a hardcounter to your hardcounter.
Plus having the Fists of Steel and the lingering defensive buff would be far too good for survival, and having it with the GRU would make that mark completely negated.

The more I think about it, the more DJ's suggestion of critical damage weakness would be a quick and effective fix to this weapon, as it does not deny the hardcounter so effectively and allows for other classes to shine in comparison to stock situations. Especially in combination with your rework, it would balance out the weapon very nicely. A Heavy primary that is a defensive alternative to stock that can combine with retreating melees, but requires some caution that movement of other miniguns can nullify and critical damage can still be an achilley's heel. Especially Demoknight to the retreating IS + FoS.

No. It doesn't. It heals at the same rate, but damage is dealt at half rate. It's an effective damage resistance, not healing increase. Yes, you can VIEW it as double healing, but that doesn't count the fact that he takes half damage. It's an effective damage mitigator, not restoration instigator

The problem wasn't the healing. It was that the heavy gained his resistance unreasonably fast, but also instantly lost it simply for the sake of repositioning. This change would make the weapon as reasonably powerful when combined with a medic as stock is. It trades complete movement control and overheal for longevity, but this longevity is harder to gain and takes less time to lose than the current iteration of this weapon. The heavy is no longer able to tank damage almost instantly after getting first shot, and will be more willing to move.

LOREKNIGHT.
He has 50% resistance. Meaning if he has 100 hp, and the rocket normally does 50 dmg (i know not real standards but, simplicity) then he has 50 hp left. With 50% resistance he takes 25, so he has 75 hp left.
This means that every single HP point is technically worth more than 1 hp point because it can take more dmg.

Originally posted by LegoFan9o5:

Originally posted by Loreknight:

He has a level 1 dispenser and a pocket medic. Are you seriously going to nerf it because he had 2 heal sources and because you just suck at dealing enough damage over a short time?

Well, given that this was in the high ground infront of spawn, with both heal sources protected and a solid team to protect from Spies, the Sniper's headshot would kill the heavy in any other situation, because he is a hardcounter to the Heavy. Except this one because of that damage resist that makes him have 600 eHP at all times. Even with me and DJ's combined focus on a single target as Demomen, he did not go down within both of our clips, which is on its face rediculous!

How would a player defeat the Heavy in such a situation? Snipers are too weak to survive the rest of your team, your position is cozy as heck and quickscopes deal 75 HP every time. Oh, did I mention that healing is equivalently TWICE as effective with it's effects? So yeah, no killing the Heavy with one of his more effective hardcounters!

And weapons that hardcounter your hardcounter AND still be effective at taking out other classes? Sure, leave that not nerfed, because having a defensive Heavy that literally has no downsides when at least partially aware of his surroundings is totally fair! Also on Payload, you become e600 HP, infinite ammo and 2x healing. Plus mobility and likely a team at your beckon call to take out anyone that tries to take you out.

i still think a crit vulnerability along with maybe a less healing and/or ammo gained while revved up is the best way to go.
Also on chdata you actually cant ride the cart, because it roots you in that spot and it'll move out from under you and then you fall.

Originally posted by Loreknight:

Originally posted by AwesomeGuyDj:

it ramps up over time to 50 FUCKING PERCENT RESISTANCE.

He has a level 1 dispenser and a pocket medic. Are you seriously going to nerf it because he had 2 heal sources and because you just suck at dealing enough damage over a short time?

correction, he had a medic using the slowest healing medigun. The booster shot.
He had a demo and a wrangled sentry focusing him. Not to mention who ever else was nearby.

Havent used this much personally but, it sounds good on paper.
Engie,
widowmaker.
Survival gear.
Gunslinger,
metal shield.
Infinite metal if you can aim.

Originally posted by Kafhet Thrynity:

And then a scout using the conventional take him down with ease
The end

Rip your balance idea
It could work if it's just (receive more damage from headshoot)
But not from any crit

who uses the conventional anyway?
My idea still stands.