Originally posted by botrot:

The Potato Patreon is no longer handled by anyone. However, server donations can still be done through DonorBox.
Check out this link: https://donorbox.org/potato-s-custom-mvm-servers

Much obliged.

Originally posted by Thyme:

Its not a scam, its just made by Potato.tf fans! :D

Notwithstanding my clickbait title for this post, by "trustworthy" I was also referring to the ability to securely handle personal data from donors without spillage. I am not an IT expert, and security is always a risk, but the setup just left me a little less comfortable than normal.

Thanks for the clarification that Pineapple is not a joke reskin of Potato, and that it's actually a separate entity. These guys' donation portal looks less trustworthy than Potato's have in the past, so I think I will refrain from giving them my name and credit card information.

By the way, are you guys still in control of the Potato Patreon? I notice that there are only 2 Patrons left. I'm happy to contribute for now if the money's actually going to help run the servers, but not if it's just beer money for someone who's left the team.

This thread has totally been hijacked to be about balancing system philosophy. T_T

I don't mean to question your whole system, because you guys are definitely the experts on this, but as far as I can tell, half of the difference between a good player and a bad player is just not throwing away credits on bad upgrades. I just figured that money nerfs might be a way to simulate that.

The real Holy Grail would be to be able to create a Standard Good Player, where nerfs, money or otherwise, were tailored to the specific skill levels of the individual players, because ultimately any useful definition of the term "good player" must necessarily leave a lot of room for variability.

And, actually, I've played some Mann Up lately for the first time in awhile, and it was way easier than I remember, even on teams without Gas Passer, so maybe Potato missions aren't as easy as I imagined relative to Valve stuff. I used to play Mann Up on a crappy laptop, but I upgraded to a respectable desktop for Canteen Crasher and Madness (in fact, I didn't even play CC until I got the computer halfway through). It makes things a lot easier. Of course, I queue with randoms for both Mann Up and Potato missions, and I don't necessarily know how the relative skill levels of my teams stack up. Obviously, a lot of the most skilled and knowledgeable players in the game play Potato, but there might also be a counteracting "Boot Camp Effect" that draws below-average players because it's free. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Originally posted by ♓A Slightly Horny Seelpit♓:

Isn't Endurance just "less but longer waves, resettable bomb"? I never actually envisioned it being harder than Invasion-type missions >_<

And thank you >w< [/quote]

You're welcome. And I just mean that, on average, all of the Endurance or Endurance-like missions have seemed to skew harder than the Invasion missions.

Why don't you just simulate low-skill play by nerfing cash?

All the difficulties are open to interpretation. I mean, Valve basically has Advanced, and then Harder than Advanced (usually) and Easier than Advanced.

I figure you guys are at least as consistent as Valve. Expert and Intermediate are basically legacy difficulties in Mann Up. Everything is just Advanced.

Originally posted by interrobang:

Dunno where you're pulling that grade for intermediates out of, but that's bonkers. Intermediates are actually way easier than they should be.

Here is what my thought process is:
High Advanced: Broken Parts. I don't even know if anything else goes here. Hamlet Hostility...? Balance changes don't help to gauge this.
Mid Advanced: Most of Two Cities; Bone Shaker
Low Advanced: Most of Steel Trap.

Unless most Intermediate and Advanced servers really are that segregated, i.e. the Intermediate missions just feel harder because the players that populate them are far worse. But that was definitely not the case with Woodchip Wound. Hence my listing it.

Originally posted by interrobang:

They were balanced by playing with 4 good players (yes, a team of 4.)

That's actually a higher bar than I assumed. I always envisioned it something like:

Expert: 5 good players
Advanced: 4 good players
Intermediate: 3 good players
Normal: 2 good players...? Normal is so tame the math breaks down.

Is Waterway Wringout officially an Endurance mission? Not that I want it to be nerfed, because I like hard missions, but [ https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/id/totallynotcaptainMo/ ] and I were unable to carry 4 randoms through the mission. Now, maybe we had some of the worst randoms possible or something, but typically that is a level of difficulty I associate with Expert.

By the way, love the way that Waterway Wringout does not drop off in difficulty after you get enough upgrades. It's kind of like Broken Parts in that way.

Date
2019-11-22
Mission(s)
Woodchip Wound (Maple Hill - Intermediate)
Fabrication Plan (Barren - Advanced)
Issues
General Difficulty

I played both of these missions back-to-back with the same group of 6 on the same server, and 3 people even played the same class for both mission. Under these conditions, the Intermediate mission was actually slightly harder than the Advanced mission. I think the fault is with both: Fabrication Plan is too easy, but Woodchip Wound is also too hard.

I've been nitpicking too many missions, so Hydrogen suggested I go take my clutter somewhere other than the main feedback thread.

While I think this tour has generally continued the trend in overall improved quality with Potato events (including website, servers, volume of content), I agree with the sentiment that maybe mission QC was a little lax this time. There have been several missions that made me scratch my head due to some weird BS botspawns or just general difficulty. Anytime I notice something, I'm going to post it here, in a new comment. I invite others to post their mission-specific balance concerns, as well.


Here's how I think Madness missions have been stacking up to Valve difficulty:
Potato Intermediate: Low Advanced to Mid Advanced
Potato Advanced (Invasion): Low Advanced to Mid Advanced
Potato Advanced (Endurance): High Advanced to Mid Expert
Potato Expert: High Advanced to Mid Expert

...except that a couple like Raid Resort and Treacherous Waters MIGHT be High Expert (i.e. Mannslaughter-tier). Haven't played enough times with enough different people to be sure.

EDIT: On second thought, I've played some Mann Up lately for the first time in awhile, and it was way easier than I remember, even on teams without Gas Passer. I used to play Mann Up on a crappy laptop, but I upgraded to a respectable desktop for Canteen Crasher and Madness (in fact, I didn't even play CC until I got the computer halfway through). It makes things a lot easier. I queue with randoms for both Mann Up and Potato missions, so I don't necessarily know how the relative skill levels of my teams stack up. Now I am less sure about how Potato missions stack up to Valve missions, and mainly just interested in helping make sure Potato missions are self-consistent.

Server: PHL #11
Map: Oilrig
Mission: Terrorist Simulation
Difficulty: Too Hard???

I have in my notes that the hitscan bots for Waves 4 and 5 of this mission were way too precise for an Intermediate mission, but looking through the pop file, everything seems to have Normal AI, so take this with a grain of salt unless corroborated by someone else.

Mission Feedback:
Sawdust Storage - Maple Hill

I think it was these two bots, which spawn in a squad:

TFBot
{
Template T_TFBot_Giant_Demo_Burst
Item "the gunboats"
ItemAttributes
{
ItemName tf_weapon_grenadelauncher
"faster reload rate" .4
"fire rate bonus" .2
"clip size upgrade atomic" 7
"projectile spread angle penalty" 1
"Projectile speed increased" 1.5
"damage bonus" 2
}
CharacterAttributes
{
"airblast vulnerability multiplier" .1
"airblast vertical vulnerability multiplier" .5
}
}
TFBot
{
Health 4200
Template T_TFBot_Giant_Soldier_Spammer_Reload
Item "the gunboats"
Attributes DisableDodge
ItemAttributes
{
ItemName tf_weapon_rocketlauncher
"move speed bonus" .5
"faster reload rate" .4
"fire rate bonus" .2
"clip size upgrade atomic" 5
"Projectile speed increased" .9
"damage bonus" 2
}
CharacterAttributes
{
"airblast vulnerability multiplier" .1
"airblast vertical vulnerability multiplier" .5
}
}

We didn't actually lose any waves, but the difficulty spike in the mission when these guys spawned was a bit dramatic, and the Spam + Large Damage Bonus felt kind of like B.S. I feel like it would be okay if the projectiles were just a little bit easier to dodge without Uber canteens or hiding behind Shield.

Originally posted by LazyOne:

I'd just like to thank you guys for implementing Zeugziumy's suggestions of putting icons for medieval mode

Seconded!

Spy can help a lot for a lot of the Expert missions with formidable giants. More mobile classes like a good Scout (and Spy again) can help a lot in fighting on multiple fronts. And just in general I suspect that a lot of low-skill teams would benefit from having 2 or 3 Heavies because he's probably the hardest class to f*** up.

But in general, the most common problems are:

1. Most players have stupid upgrades, usually not getting Crit Resistance when appropriate or sub-optimal weapon upgrades that fail to maximize DPS. Literally, why are people in Expert who take 150 seconds to pick upgrades worse than random?
2. Teams that choose to be effectively short-handed due to bad playstyles (e.g. Meta Scout when there are already a Kritz Medic and Banner Soldier for Heals/Buffs. Shield Medic that focuses on keeping bad players alive rather than boosting the damage of good players. Airblast Pyro/Loose Cannon Demo for stalling.)

Also consider spending some more time practicing in Advanced first.