We've been discussing internally these policy changes since they were first announced. Rule changes will come in due time.

Originally posted by Nooge:

We've been discussing internally these policy changes since they were first announced. Rule changes will come in due time.

That's great news! Hope to see some changes in the near future. Keep up the good work.

I am curious, what rules do you feel need changing on Outpost? We currently have always banned people who actively trade with scammers. No where does the policy change on SteamRep reflect anything stating otherwise.

Originally posted by Toughsox:

-snip-

Generally the way outpost bans people for trading with scammers/scammer alts.

A number of people I know who accidentally traded with scammer alts were banned from the site because it is against the rules but they are good people who made mistakes(I know this sounds bias but they are good people). I believe that handling trading with scammer alts should be treated the other around.

For example, instead of banning people who traded with scammer alts multiple times and then make them appeal but instead ban them only after the staff(or anyone in-charge) can prove that they have been trading with these scammers for the sake of profit.

Many good people has lost their chance to be part of the trading community simply because they made mistakes and this rule is very off putting for people who intend on joining this community.

Outpost has been too strict when it comes to traders making mistakes and since they are humans too.

One example, I traded once with a scammer alt by accident and didn't realise that he was a scammer alt until Sirploko gave me a 2 week ban. Now, I didn't trade with a scammer alt for the sake of profit but it was a genuine mistake on my end. It would be nice if the case got investigated before banning me for the sake of trading with a scammer alt.

I understand the reason that rule was implemented in the first place to curb scammers from being able to make money off their dirty methods but this has actually convicted more good people than it should have.

Banning these traders who made mistakes actually leave the newer traders more vulnerable to scammers and such because experienced traders are getting banned for accidental mistakes they have done. For me, I always help out new traders when it comes to trading and guide them to avoid making mistakes but if I were to get a Perma-ban for accidentally trading with a scammer, I wouldn't be as involved in this community and therefore not be able to guide these newer traders and risk these new traders to make the mistakes I did.

I know the admins mean well to the community but I personally think being very sensitive when it comes to banning traders is doing way more harm than it does good.

Maybe making a mandatory mini-seminar for users of the site to teach them safe ways of trading rather than making them learn only after they get their first ban would be more effective and less damaging to people who made genuine mistakes.

Correct me if I am wrong but weren't TF2 communities were created to help out those that needs help rather than police them.

If the things I suggested are too much for the staff to handle, maybe pay them if you aren't or pay them more. Not everyone has the luxury of spending hours a day with their own resources dealing with reports and such. There are ways to separate those who genuinely wants to help the community and those who only do it for the money(if that is the reason) and still pay your staff well enough for them to be able to spend time and effort into the cause of cleaning up the site.

TL;DR Investigate a trade with scammer alts to confirm if it was for profit before banning the trader and setup a better education system for new traders rather them letting them learn the hard way. Remember, traders are humans too, and humans make mistakes. Give your staff some incentive to work.

You make valid points but, there are many guides for people to research how to trade fairly and cleanly. By your own admission, you were banned for trading with a scammer and, while all the tools were already inplace for you to learn, you took the initive to educate yourself as to what is a legit looking account and what isnt.

The fact that profit was or was not invoved means nothing. Just because a scammer wants full price and a person wants his item depserate enough to deal with him instead of a legit trader means only in my eyes that the trader was either unwilling or uncaring to look for one from someone repuatable.

The whole idea of being given a temp ban is so that you ARE made aware that there are rules and things to look for. The smart ones and the ones that are willing to trade fairly are the ones that don't get banned again.

Now go to the other aspect, the scamming victim. Did anyone care they got scammed? Did anyone do anything to help them learn from falling prey to the scammers?

Remember what a scammer is and what he is dealing with...STOLEN ITEMS.

So, at what point should anyone be allowed or how many chances should a person be given when they are dealing with these stolen items?

If it is too hard to see someone selling 10 unusuals, with a 2 week old Steam Account, and zero hours in any game.....if you or anyone wants to somehow justify that, then by all means, I am more than willing to listen.

Am I simplifying this response, yes, as there are too many details that can be added to or subtracted from this equation, but that is the general type of reports we deal with, and thats generally the reasons behind many of the people banned on Outpost.

And believe me when I tell you, 9 out of 10 people that are banned for this reason, could care less as they simply make new alt accounts and continue to feed the scammers and help them launder their stolen items.

Outpost has LONG been dealing with scammers and scammer alts trading on our site and we do take great pride in doing what we can to slow them down whenever possible, albeit, it is a never ending job.

Mind you, while I may be an Admin here, I will state I am speaking my mind and NOT as an official response to Outpost or their rules. Just from my personal experience here. Should our rules change, then by all means we will honor and enforce them to the best of our ability. Until those rules change though, trading with scammers has never been allowed, NOR do the policy changes of SteamRep reflect anywhere that they allow or condone trading with scammers/.scammer alts either. The fact that they are no longer tagging for people that trade with them does NOT mean they said it was ok.

Originally posted by Toughsox:

The whole idea of being given a temp ban is so that you ARE made aware that there are rules and things to look for. The smart ones and the ones that are willing to trade fairly are the ones that don't get banned again.

By this argument you are stating that traders like LT Scout and Frost aren’t the smart ones as they have made mistakes even after given warnings. But you see, that’s not the case because humans make mistakes regardless of how smart he/she is. In fact for many of these traders, their margin of error is so small that in the real world they would be forgiven for their mistakes.
If you want to ban people for trading with scammers knowingly, by all means, go ahead. What I disagree is banning those who have good intentions but made honest mistakes.
I do not wish to see Outpost turn a blind eye on trading with scammers and scammer alts. What I wish to see is a change in the method Outpost deals with people who had traded with scammers and scammer alts.
As I said in my previous post, make a full investigation on the matter to determine if said person is trading knowingly or unknowingly. I do not see a reason to ban someone who made an honest mistake.

Originally posted by Toughsox:

Now go to the other aspect, the scamming victim. Did anyone care they got scammed? Did anyone do anything to help them learn from falling prey to the scammers?

I do not see any relevance of this to our discussion.

Originally posted by Toughsox:

Remember what a scammer is and what he is dealing with...STOLEN ITEMS.

As stated above, why would you ban someone for not knowing that he/she has traded a stolen item.

Originally posted by Toughsox:

So, at what point should anyone be allowed or how many chances should a person be given when they are dealing with these stolen items?

"How many chances" implies that there is a number yes? This is a very bad system as it is truly unfair for traders. There are so many traders ranging from trading daily to trading once every few months. If you ban someone who did a hundred thousand trades for making a mistake thrice (margin of error = .003%) would be unfair if you’re banning someone who did a hundred trades and made three mistakes (margin of error = 3%). Even in a the real world, you would be applauded for having a margin of error of 0.003% so in such a caring community why should someone with such a low error margin be prosecuted?

I am not implying that percentages should be used too. It is still possible to abuse such a system. Which is why I would urge the admins to go with a case to case investigation before banning the trader. Clarify and confirm that the trader did the trade knowing that the other person is a scammer before banning the trader rather than banning him for making a mistake. I said it before and I’ll say it again. Policing the community is not beneficial for the good guys as scammers will find ways to sell their load anyways. You(Outpost) are harming more good people than bad and that is NOT OKAY.

Originally posted by Toughsox:

If it is too hard to see someone selling 10 unusuals, with a 2 week old Steam Account, and zero hours in any game.....if you or anyone wants to somehow justify that, then by all means, I am more than willing to listen.

If your baby brother accidentally damaged your computer, would you punish or educate him?

Originally posted by Toughsox:

Am I simplifying this response, yes, as there are too many details that can be added to or subtracted from this equation, but that is the general type of reports we deal with, and thats generally the reasons behind many of the people banned on Outpost.

Add me and I am happy to debate with you. All I want is for a better more forgiving community.

Originally posted by Toughsox:

And believe me when I tell you, 9 out of 10 people that are banned for this reason, could care less as they simply make new alt accounts and continue to feed the scammers and help them launder their stolen items.

By all means, ban them. But make sure you(Outpost) can prove that these people did launder before banning them. It is only fair to give everyone a fair trial.

Originally posted by Toughsox:

Outpost has LONG been dealing with scammers and scammer alts trading on our site and we do take great pride in doing what we can to slow them down whenever possible, albeit, it is a never ending job.

This does not justify maintaining outdated rules.

Originally posted by Toughsox:

Mind you, while I may be an Admin here, I will state I am speaking my mind and NOT as an official response to Outpost or their rules. Just from my personal experience here. Should our rules change, then by all means we will honor and enforce them to the best of our ability. Until those rules change though, trading with scammers has never been allowed, NOR do the policy changes of SteamRep reflect anywhere that they allow or condone trading with scammers/.scammer alts either. The fact that they are no longer tagging for people that trade with them does NOT mean they said it was ok.

It is not okay to trade with scammers. But it is also not okay to ban people for making honest mistakes.

First off, Im not here to debate anything with you. You made a comment how you wish Outpost would change due to the change in SR policy, of which I asked you to list ways to help us make it better. So far you are making general statements about what you dislike of our past ways of conducting investigations, and from my perspective, bringing up valid reasons as to why we should look the other way in certain circumstances. Its easy to want changes made but until you, us or someone else comes up with something more concrete, I see no reason for changing anything.

Realize this, rules are made and must be interpreted so that they are clear, easy to understand, and in a black & white nature so that during a report, it is either a proven or dismissed situation. Do you really want Staff members to decide that for one person a trade is ok, but for another person it is not? Be careful there as thats now a slippery slope as then things get called in to question such as 'oh look, he has that guy in his friends list"

Also, I want this to be crystal clear here and now, we ALWAYS took the position that you traded with these scammers/scammer alts unknowingly, since its impossible to prove otherwise. The excuse is always 'I didnt know". "I didnt really look at their profile" or, I didn't know that was a rule". That last excuse is the most laughable as, practially every trade server, or community I have ever visited makes you accept their rules before joining.....yes, those same rules that no one bothers to read and simply clicks through. The same rules you had to agree to BEFORE you joined Outpost. I suppose the only way to combat that would be, to force a pop-up over and over again so people might actual pay attention to them.


On the rare occasions that it was proven that a person willingly traded with a marked scammer (I can think of 2 off the top of my head) those bans were both immediate and perm from the get go. There was no 2nd chance.

As for you mentioning someone like Frost, the meer fact that he trades so often that he should be allowed more chances is simply ludacris. Try using your analogy in a real court, to show that special dispensation should be allowed simply because of the multitude of transactions. If using the excuse that a person trades so often that 'some bad ones will slip through" is valid, then whats the point of having any rules to begin with.


As I said above, I have no reason to discuss this with you in private as these are my opinions, which Im not changing regardless of what anyone says. Should Outpost as a collective decide to change any rules, it will be my obligation to follow them to the letter, which is what I currently & always have done.


That very last comment you made "But it is also not okay to ban people for making honest mistakes." What do you propose happens to that person? Who decides if the mistake was honest or intentional? Do we look the other way, does he get no punishment at all? Do we count it against him for the nest time? Is there a dollar value attache d that makes this a different scenario? If he does it again do we then take action? What if its a good friend of his who is giving him these items, is that ok? At what point do you draw the line?

But as I said, feel free to offer up any real ways to make the site better as that is always welcome.

I wish to hear your opinion on what was literally, an appeal I just handled not 2 minutes ago. Names will not be used but, the person readily admitted both when he was banned, and in his current appeal, that he knew ahead of time that the person was a marked scammer but....he really wanted the unusual and effect that the scammer had so, we knowingly went ahead with the trade. One of the items in the trade happened to be a Golden Pan, so we are clearly over a value of $2000.

Originally posted by Toughsox:

I wish to hear your opinion on what was literally, an appeal I just handled not 2 minutes ago. Names will not be used but, the person readily admitted both when he was banned, and in his current appeal, that he knew ahead of time that the person was a marked scammer but....he really wanted the unusual and effect that the scammer had so, we knowingly went ahead with the trade. One of the items in the trade happened to be a Golden Pan, so we are clearly over a value of $2000.

Sorry for the late reply, I completely forgot.

I'd reject his appeal simply because he could've gotten a golden pan from someone else but instead he chose to trade with a scammer.

If the items that were traded were 1 of 1 in the world then I'd probably accept his appeal. Why should we punish fans of the game because there are scammers in the community.

Another thing I would look into would be the history of the scammer :

If the item traded was a scammed item and is NOT 1 of 1 in the world, reject.

If the item traded was not a scammed item and not 1 of 1 in the world, I'd look at the reason the scammer got marked. If the scammer got marked for petty scams like running away from a very low value spycrab, I'd accept the trader's appeal.

If the scammer was marked more than 2 years ago with only one report and no other -rep anywhere or any known alts in the time during the last 2 years, I'd accept the trader's appeal because this scammer is no longer a nuisance to the community.

I know that my judgement probably isn't the best but this is me thinking quick here. Of course these ideas needs to be fine tuned too be useful at all.

The problem with your examples, while I will admit, you did put some good thought into them, is as follows.

Fact, when people are marked, alot ot times future people wont waste their time making new reports since nothing more can be done. Since being marked was in fact considered the kiss of death for traders, once your name was in red, a majority of people I have seen send in complaints after a person got marked just chalk it up to 'they should have looked at the guys rep first" and move on, not wanting to dwell on how and why they personally got scammed.

Also, you mention if the scammer got marked for something petty. Im sorry but I do not see the difference from the theft of a craft hat to the value of a golden pan. Theft is theft, a scammer is a scammer. While a craft hat means absolutely nothing to someone with a backpack like mine,to a new trader it might be his most prized posession. What you are speaking of definitely then brings it to the judgement on who is handling the report, and that again opens up the field for abuse by Mods to be lenient on one person but drop the hammer on someone else.

I am not saying all the rules in place everywhere are perfect, but, I can speak for Outpost and say if nothing else, we handle our matters consistantly. Once you move away from doing reports differently for different scenarios, thats when you open the door for every report being second guessed, being compared with what others may have had action taken against them for and a whole host of more general complaints that someone did not do their job correctly.

As I have said repeatedly, until someone comes up with concrete ways to change things, or until collectively we as Outpost Staff change our rules, I am of the opinion to leave them exactly how they are. Changing things just to say you changed them serves no purpose.

But again, I do give you credit for thinking of things and wanting rules to change to help the community.........contrary to popular belief, that happens to be the only reason the people we have on Staff here are here.

An op admin closed one trade and said they were resists but they were the same trades.

Originally posted by Toughsox:

-snip-

Fair enough. I will continue thinking of new ideas to improve Outpost and trading in general but until then, have a nice day.

Thanks for your time and explanations.

Hey, this is directed at the staff and any devs working on the outpost companion app.
(Not sure if this is the best thread to comment on for this)

What are your plans for the companion app? Do you plan to eventually add more features to let it be used for more than just notifications?
Is it a possibility for us to view our trades and be able to bumb them in the future? Would love to talk more on this, I always wanted an outpost app for iOS :)

Originally posted by ♫WOLT♫:

Is it a possibility for us to view our trades and be able to bumb them in the future? Would love to talk more on this, I always wanted an outpost app for iOS :)

Yes that is already planned, however this is completely off topic.

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/groups/tf2outpost/discussions/6/458605613403478817/

Originally posted by norby89:

Originally posted by ♫WOLT♫:

Is it a possibility for us to view our trades and be able to bumb them in the future? Would love to talk more on this, I always wanted an outpost app for iOS :)

Yes that is already planned, however this is completely off topic.

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/groups/tf2outpost/discussions/6/458605613403478817/

Thank you, I didn't see that announcement on the main page :s Guess I didn't look hard enough haha, thanks again.