Originally posted by N_Dck:

Here is an example of a shark. A newer user has just uncrated an unusual, for this example, we'll use a burning flames festive tree. Another user comes to that user and says "Hey, nice unusual you got there, it's only worth 1 earbud, but I'll give you 2 earbuds for it, it's a fair deal". The new user doesn't know anything about trading, so he says "Sure". This is sharking because the shark is taking advantage of the other user's lack of trading knowledge and lying to them about their items value. The other examples you have given aren't sharks, they are just cheapskates.

So, why should extreme cheapskates be allowed to begin with? It is a free, market but some people just don't desrve the right to use it.

Originally posted by norby89:

But why should these trades be considered valid?

Any trade is valid as long as it's not a troll trade or doesn't break any rules. If someone was buying S.Gunslingers for a scrap you can report them and they will get their trade closed.

If you want to see prices on items there are plenty of plugins for that however you will never see this implemented on the site. There have been endless discussions on how spreadsheets manipulate prices or how people with lack of common sense blindly follow price guides and that goes against with what TF2Outpost believes to be a free market.

I am not saying, a single one should be chosen.
Can't an average be calculated from all of them? Or, a program, that maybe checks how much people trade for in outpost?

Sorry for long time to reply, but I got the stupid bug, where you have to log in, in steam.Thought the website.

Originally posted by norby89:

Sharking as defined by TF2Outpost rules:

Rule No.6 sharking. Sharking is defined as manipulating another user into trading/selling a valuable item for 10% or less of its accepted value (or 20% or less for users with less than 200 hours in that game) or any other deceptive trading practice that the staff consider to be against the spirit of this rule. We participate in a network of trading sites that do not tolerate taking advantage of other users for personal gain.

Please note the parts I've marked in bold. Key words being "manipulating", "valuable", "10% or less". There is no manipulation involved in trying to buy a strange for 1 scrap, that's just lowballing. At most it can be classified as an unrealistic offer and the trade would get closed. Sharking is manipulating someone new or someone who doesn't know the real value of their expensive items into trading them for something worth way less. Example would be buying a freshly unboxed unusual for a couple of craft hats and weapons because hey 10 hats for 1 is a good deal right?

Don't confuse the 2 terms.

But why should these trades be considered valid?
If tfop it had any kind of pricing baseline, at least there would be more realistic offers to the actual price, other sites do this. They allow you to trade any price you want, but it points out the actuall price of the item for everyone, so you are forced to make realistic trades, and the site gets better reputation.

Originally posted by HusKy:

You just gave made up examples of bad offers. Once again, this is not sharking.
You are also missing the fact that the person who gets richer is the one being approached, not the other way around. If someone is unable to search the market, it's their choice.

So, wait, if these I metioned, aren't sharks, then what is? Can you give me an example of what can be considered a shark? (Because wanting 1 key for strange fists and equalisers aren't.)

Originally posted by HusKy:

Originally posted by Vincent Ellthan Valarian ♛:

I am not trying to tell othes how to do it. If you only read the thread, you would know

Yes, you are.
You are also misinterpreting the term "sharking" and confusing it with what's normally called "weak/bad offer".

So, selling strange fists for 1 key, is just a bad offer and by no means sharking?
Or buying festives for 1 scarp and strange festives for 1 ref?

These aren't bad offers. These are outright sharks.

Originally posted by HusKy:

You have never posted a single trade so why are you trying to tell others how they should do it?

I am not trying to tell othes how to do it. If you only read the thread, you would know.

Originally posted by Leeroy:

Don't be silly. We're trading, you're meant to offer less then the asking price, that's how it works buddy. Same thing out in the real world. Watch Bargain Hunt on BBC if you want to see how it works. There are no prices for these items unless you're buying them from the Mann Co. store, only estimated value. We're not in a supermarket, we're trading items.... If you can believe it, that's how it used to be in TF2 trading before this "price check" rubbish was created.

I am not talking about the normal offer less that maniplulates the prices to a healthy level, I am talking about ridiculus offers, and prices obviously meant to shark new people. Also, before this price check rubbish was intruduced, there was no actuall ingame economy. You could get an unusual for a key and a hat for 15. (Extreme examples). Prices go up and down due to demand, but sometimes you know it is just greed. Bad kind of greed.

Originally posted by BillyTheFish:

I have sold many Strange Shotguns, usually for a key and a half (or thereabouts.)
Reason? I despise the mentality that everyone has to follow Bp.tf like it's the bible; the result of doing so is plain to see - lots of items all selling for the same predetermined price and sitting there unsold week after week. Sorry, but I'd rather undercut all the sheep and take a little less just to get rid of it. Free market economy, people.
If people are asking too much for their stuff, it won't sell. If they are offering too little for someone else's stuff, they're not going to get it.
The best way to improve trading here would be to set time limits on all trades. That will encourage people will be much more focused when they price their items.

Originally posted by norby89:

Keep in mind, prices change all the time due to supply and demand and it's not TF2Outpost's job to police that. If you find an unrealistic or troll trade feel free to report it. Someone selling/buying items for a price you believe is unfair shouldn't be reported though.

I don't have a problem with prices going up and down to a normal percent.
But some people are outright sharking. Selling strange equalisers for 1 key, buying festives for 1 scarp. These people are allowed to do this, and give a bad reputation to the tfop community (quote http://makeameme.org/meme/lowballers-lowballers-everywhere-203d9u ) because people like these are allowed freely to shark like this and technicaly there are no rules to stop them.

As I said, normal prices with supply and demand are ok, but someone are outrageus.
I don't want nessesarily backpack tf. Just any kind of prising quideline.

Originally posted by norby89:

Who said anything about quickselling? I am talking about people buying a S.shotgun worth 2 keys for 1 key, a S.dead ringer for 4 ref, not selling them. I never said anything about quickselling for items.

You entirely missed my point. My point was it's ok to buy (or sell) items for any price as long as it's reasonable and I gave you an example of what falls into that category.

I don't have a problem with quicksellers, that want to get pure fast. Or people buying for 1 ref more, or less.
I have a problem with people, who want to make cheap profit by overpricing items when selling, and undepricing when buying. To the extreme (selling strange fists for 1 key), (buying genuine apsap for 4 ref)

I thought you misunderstood my point because you brought an example of someone quicksellining, something that I never said I had a problem to begin with.

Originally posted by norby89:

And yet, we have so many trades with horrible prices, obviously, trying to take advantage of people. I am talking things like (b) 1 key for s.shotgun. (b) 1 rec for festives, (s) cheap hats for 4 ref+, (s) 1 key for low tier stranges (fists, equaliser, fireaxe). And no, I am not kidding. These are actuall trades I have seen and would post but no naming and shaming.

Bad prices are not against the rules, how else would prices on items change if everyone was only allowed to trade for the same price? It's a free market and people are free to buy/sell for what they want, within reason of course. Unrealistic trades do get closed.

""But what about rule 6? The prices can still change with the 20% limit, but not with extreme limits. like double the price of something worth for example, 5 keys""

Other trading sites, have something similar, like for example a hud near the trade that says how much profit will the other person make for said trade (If he is making 158% profit, you know something is wrong). I am not asking for this, just a basic pricing guideline, to define rule number 6.

The sharking rule is mainly set in place for unusual trades (but not only) because that's where +90% of sharkings happen. These people are not in just for profit, they're in for unfair profit by taking advantage of new users who have no idea that what they just unboxed might be worth hundreds if not thousands of dollars.

""Maybe, but that dosen't mean people should be allowed to scam people with such ridicules like 1 scarp for festive, or 1 key for strange firsts.""

The examples you've given are just people flipping items for profit and there's nothing wrong about that. It's not unrealistic for someone to quicksell an item worth 2 keys for 1 key when they're in quick need of keys.

Who said anything about quickselling? I am talking about people buying a S.shotgun worth 2 keys for 1 key, a S.dead ringer for 4 ref, not selling them. I never said anything about quickselling for items.

(b) stands for guy is buying and (s) stands for guy is selling just to clear that out.

Rule No.6 sharking. Sharking is defined as manipulating another user into trading/selling a valuable item for 10% or less of its accepted value (or 20% or less for users with less than 200 hours in that game) or any other deceptive trading practice that the staff consider to be against the spirit of this rule. We participate in a network of trading sites that do not tolerate taking advantage of other users for personal gain.


And yet, we have so many trades with horrible prices, obviously, trying to take advantage of people. I am talking things like (b) 1 key for s.shotgun. (b) 1 rec for festives, (s) cheap hats for 4 ref+, (s) 1 key for low tier stranges (fists, equaliser, fireaxe). And no, I am not kidding. These are actuall trades I have seen and would post but no naming and shaming.

Outpost, needs a basic pricing guide, so people can't say : Mah treid, mah rulz, fuck of or i reprt u.

Other trading sites, have something similar, like for example a hud near the trade that says how much profit will the other person make for said trade (If he is making 158% profit, you know something is wrong). I am not asking for this, just a basic pricing guideline, to define rule number 6.