You can check out this mod for culture:

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2533573440

Any chance of getting a mod that does the same thing but for culture? I really love this mod, and would love to see something similar for that.

Love this mod! I always felt it didn't make sense to snowball specially since international trade is a thing and in real life yes there are some countries that are still way behiond on science, but in general with international trade that means people in europe, asia, americas etc have access to technology. SO it didn't make sense to me for one civ to be in the modern era with nukes etc, but then have a smaller 1 city civ still in the stone age...while having trade routes..... this mod makes it so much more realistic.

Are you expecting me to remember by heart every line of code I have written in my life? Are you kidding?

your mod........... you're the one who added TotalScience on your code.. how would I know what it means and what it do......

What do you mean by totalScience?

Hey mate, how can I make the penalty severe? Im already on 9 City, generating 95 science while the AI still generates 20...

I increase the city threshold to 8, how about totalScience? do I need to set it more to get more penalized? I know AI are affected by it too but right now they're below 8 city.

A version for culture would be very nice.

Alright, I tested it and it works like a charm. Thanks again for responding so quickly and fixing it right away. There are certainly way too many dead mods in the Workshop. This ain't one of them.

Thank you for the quick response. I'll test it out right away.

Updated. Should be fine now. Let me know if issue persists.

With the newest update the mod bugs out the UI. I don't know if you still work on this, but it would be great If you could fix it!

With the new update this causes a glitch that makes your top bar with all the info on gold, science etc. disappear. It also persists in saves even when deactivating this mod.

it is too effective but still not balanced with culture

Yes it does.

Hi. Does this affect AI too? Thanks

i have like 270 science when second most powerfull city have like 100 i will try that mod !

You Choose Do culture as well

Wide Culture Penalty haha

Your calculations are accurate. But from regular player (user) perspective they may be mistakenly interpreted that the formula (and the mod) is somehow not performing correctly.
What I am trying to emphasize here that the formula is OK, the mod works as intended and the main goal here - to punish inefficiency - is perfectly reached.

@FearSunn (Part 1)
We seem to have reached a point were we're in agreement on the math and the raw numbers. I'd even go as far as saying you've just agreed that everything I've said over the past day or so is accurate. Of course it's possible for my statements to both be 100% accurate and true, while only presenting part of the truth. In a sense, I could misrepresent how this mod works, by choosing which facts to present, and which facts to omit. I don't believe I've misrepresented anything, at least not intentionally.

I did focus on how a player gets to keep 100% of the science they earn until they reach the globalAverageScience, on how 100% of the science a player earns from that point on is taken away by the wideSciencePenalty until the player's science output reaches globalAverageScience + wideSciencePenalty, and how the player gets to 100% of the science they earn above the globalAverageScience + wideSciencePenalty threshold.

I believe we currently agree on this.

@FearSunn (Part 2)
So what are we arguing about? That's harder to put into words.
I may attempt to answer that when I get back from work.

With your conclusions you missed one key point here: Wide Science Penalty penalizes inefficiency and encourages min-maxing smart play. When a player with 20 cities reaches 200 science per turn his average science per city gets in par with global average science per city (200/20=10). From now on science penalty is stabilized (assuming all other parameters stay the same as per your example) and the player is rewarded for being efficient. In some sense you may call it "penalty overcome", but in fact it is efficiency that comes into play.

While the scripted "Hard Cap" means a player's science per turn will never be reduced (after penalty applied) below the globalAverageScience, it also means a player's science per turn will never increase above the globalAverageScience until the wideSciencePenalty is fully paid off (until the player reaches globalAverageScience + wideSciencePenalty). Once a player's science reaches globalAverageScience + wideSciencePenalty, any additional science earned is theirs to keep.

In other words, the wideSciencePenalty keeps a player Hard Capped at the globalAverageScience, until they 'overcome' or pay off the wideSciencePenalty.

Added example player science numbers, before and after penalty, in previous post bellow to help illustrate this.

Using the same example as before (previous comments):
Reminder: wideSciencePenalty = globalAverageScience = 100 (in this example).

Here's what the numbers would look like for a player.
First number being what they earned.
Second number in (brackets) is what they end up with, after the wideSciencePenalty.

Senario A (Player Science ≤ 100):
40(40), 60(60), 80(80), 100(100)

Senario B (100 < Player Science ≤ 200):
125(100), 150(100), 175(100), 200(100)

Senario C (Player Science > 200)
220(120), 250(150), 300(200), 400(300)

If you're earning science equal to the globalAverageScience, you'll find yourself staring at the wideSciencePenalty. Any effort to increase your science beyond this point will be fruitless, until you reach globalAverageScience + wideSciencePenalty (or double the globalAverageScience in this example). Once your science output reaches globalAverageScience + wideSciencePenalty, any additional science earned is yours to keep.

Scripted "Hard cap" means player's science per turn will never be reduced (after penalty applied) below globalAverageScience (first meaning in your example).
Putting your numbers into model shows your calculations are generally correct. At least formally... I still could not agree with you conclusions.
Could you please elaborate a little bit more what exactly do you mean by "overcoming" science penalty? overcoming hard cap?...?

Assuming the wideSciencePenalty will never bring a player bellow the globalAverageScience. And assuming players bellow the globalAverageScience will not encounter a Science Penalty.

Using the example bellow (previous comment):
A player earning up to 100 science would have no penalty.
A player earning between 100 and 200 science would be Hard Capped at 100 science.
A player earning more then 200 science would simply see whatever science they're earning reduced by 100.

At least that's how I interpret your saying "there is hard Cap for Penalty (scripted, not in the formula) not allowing to reduce player's science more than globalAverageScience".

If on the other hand you mean the wideSciencePenalty will never exceed the globalAverageScience, then a player earning 100 science in this example would see their science drop to ZERO due to the wideSciencePenalty. Using either interpretation, the wideSciencePenalty would be a Hard Cap to overcome.

EXAMPLE (where CitiesCountPlayer = twice the averageCitiesGlobal)

10 = averageCitiesGlobal
20 = CitiesCountPlayer
10 = surplusCities (CitiesCountPlayer-averageCitiesGlobal)
10 = globalAverageSciencePerCity
100 = globalAverageScience (globalAverageSciencePerCity*averageCitiesGlobal)

wideSciencePenalty = globalAverageSciencePerCity*(1/(averageCitiesGlobal/pCitiesCountPlayer)-1)*surplusCities
wideSciencePenalty = 10*(1/(10/20)-1)*10
wideSciencePenalty = 10*(1/(1/2)-1)*10
wideSciencePenalty = 10*(2-1)*10
wideSciencePenalty = 100

The simplified formula I provided gives the same result:
wideSciencePenalty = globalAverageScience*(surplusCities/averageCitiesGlobal)²
wideSciencePenalty = 100*(10/10)²
wideSciencePenalty = 100

wideSciencePenalty = globalAverageScience = 100

@FearSunn
You maybe right. I have not looked at the code. My understanding is based on the description provided on this web page.

When on April 19th, I simplified the formula provided in the description, and gave some examples and interpretations of how this mod works. I was wrong then, as my interpretations were based on incomplete information (the description provided on this webpage). I did not know that the wideSciencePenalty was Hard Capped so as to not reduce a players science bellow globalAverageScience. This information was not, and has yet to be provided in the description.

While I may have misinterpreted how this mod works. I'm fairly confident that my math is right, based on the formula provided in the description. Just trying to make sense of your mod. Is there something I'm missing?

Heading out. Won't be able to respond for hours, maybe a day. Thanks.

ubereffect, you are wrong.
According to my calculations there is no way to "overcome" wideSciencePenalty by exceeding globalAverageScience. It makes me wonder how you came to that conclusion? Have you looked at coded formula?

@Nathan ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ
@FearSunn
Your science will remain locked to the globalAverageScience (per Civilization), as long as you exceed the globalAverageScience, while not exceeding it by enough to pay off your wideSciencePenalty.

EXAMPLE: If you have twice as many cities as average:
wideSciencePenalty = globalAverageScience

With 2 exceptions:
1) wideSciencePenalty only kicks in if you have more then 6 cities
2) wideSciencePenalty is Hard Capped (will not bring a player bellow globalAverageScience)

In other words if your number of cities exceeds 6, and is double the average. You will have no Science Penalty so long as your science is bellow average. Once you hit average, your science will effectively be capped, until you double the globalAverageScience (in order to overcome the wideSciencePenalty). After which point, your science will rise normally once again.

You should compare how much cities other major civs have. Difference is important, not flat number.

Thanks for looking into this, glad it probably isn't the mod and I can continue using it! For more info I did have the most cities when this bug occurred (13 on small map)

While testing (modelling) with Excel I haven't find any combination of values that would lead to complete (or near complete) halt on progress. A player is penalized only if he has more than average cities and only within the limits of average science yield of all other civs. The formula is described in the definition. So my answer would be no, normally this is not possible with this mod. Some bugs are repeatedly reported on CivFanatics with base game halting tech progress. This could be related (distorts formula calculations). But this is just a guess.

Leading science production, 3rd in tech

Are you leading techs?

Around the Atomic era in my current game, my research has frozen and won't progress at all. This is the only mod I have active which affects the game. Everything else is visual. Thoughts?

Updated (compatibility with latest June patch)

Main principle: Penalty does not penalize EFFICIENCY. If you have strong science with average number of cities you won't be penalized. So in your example average 10 you have 8 - no penalty for you.

So much for my plan of declaring war on my opponent, sending them settlers to capture, and watching their science plummet to zero.

I believe my simplified formula is correct still. My example though...
Surplus cities have ZERO effect on your science, as long you're not above average.
And surplus cities will never bring you bellow average.
Good to know.

Questions:
Say you have 8 cities, and the average is 10? I'm guessing you won't get a boost, right?
And when other players have penalties, the formula is based on science before penalty?

Important NOTE: there is hard Cap for Penalty (scripted, not in the formula) not allowing to reduce player's science more than globalAverageScience. Therefore your comment is not quite correct.

Formula can be simplified, and made easier to understand, as follows:

wideSciencePenalty = globalAverageScience*(surplusCities/averageCitiesGlobal)²
P = Y*X²
P = wideSciencePenalty
Y = globalAverageScience (Global Average Science Per Civilization)
X = surplusCities/averageCitiesGlobal (Proportion Of Cities Above Global Average)

Penalty does not account for 'Player Science Per Turn'. The penalty increases proportionally with 'Global Average Science Per Civilization', increases exponentially with 'Cities Above Average', and decreases exponentially with 'Average Cities Per Civilization'.

If you have average science, but:
100% more cities then average = your science is reduced by 100%
71% more cities then average = your science is reduced by 50%
50% more cities then average = your science is reduced by 25%
32% more cities then average = your science is reduced by 10%

If higher/lower science then average,
then more/fewer cities needed to reach same % of science reduction.

Culture is conceptually different than Science. It would distort game balance. I won't do that.

It is possibile to have the same thing for culture ? :)

Great thanks

yes

Is the AI also affected?

THX!!!!!!!

Thanks FearSunn!

Update uploaded. Now compatible with GS.