Is it just me, or the Samurai Boots were untouched by NCE?

I'm new to kenshi, one month and way too many hours (yay unemployment and depression!!), and even newer to modding it, so this is more a question to one with greater experience. Did you have to modify the values for every single piece of armor, or is there a way to do it en masses? I'm curious if there is a way to tie the CE changes to clothing with specific tags like light, cloth, leather. It would make sense for heavier armors to transfer damage to blunt ala concussive force as the cutting wouldn't go through.

Hi, sorry to bother you. There is this mod called a forgotten world which adds a lot of new armour to the world. Is there any chance you have a patch for NCE for them?

The comments here are insane lol. Mods are an optional source of additional content, everyone knows this right? If you don't like something about it, you can voice your grievances, sure, but some people take it farther than they need to for sure.

Listen the Cut Res Efficiency is garbage as it is for vanilla, either that or a lot of modders suck at effectively using it. A really simple example is a piece of Masterwork light leather armor with 90% cut res, but 0% Cut res efficiency? Basically useless, in my experience I'll have a character with stats 35-40+ all round use, let's say torso armor with those stats, 100% coverage on chest, but still gets one shot chest shot by a Red Spider, that's ludicrous. If the system is that broken I'd rather not have it at all.

ok good

if they had just applied the cut efficiency only to the last layer after taking into account (maybe through averaging) the CE of other layers (or simply applying the best), we would have gotten a far more intuitive and functional system, it would have been so simple, it would have mirrored the real life function of armors at least a bit better as well.

all it had to be was a certain amount resisted fully, a certain amount converted to blunt, pass it to next layer. how did they mess it up so bad?

hey turkwise, being annoying about other people's preferences accomplishes nothing. if you want the patches so bad, respectfully, do them yourself. CER has made it very easy and clear that they want other people to iterate. both mods still exist no matter which is more "popular"(supported). if you are going to blame anyone for the lack CER updates, its the fact it hasn't been updated. users are naturally going to use something else if other, more up to date options are available.

I've been really enjoying playing with this mod. Being a bit of a stat hoarding goblin I love seeing ridiculous DR values. Looking through the comments though I'd probably be driven to madness managing this project, so mad props to you.

I just dont like that people always seem to default to this mod instead of the better solution, Cut Efficiency Rebalanced. No one makes patches for CER because they dont actually understand the problem and just get rid of it entirely, completely breaking the intended balance of the game.

misleading description imo, ranged damage and harpoon resistance is WAAAAAY DIFFERENT than vanilla, animal damage seems weird as well. good idea, seems like it just can't be fully realized in FCS.

If im just lazy and just have 2/3 armor mods can I just skip the entire how to make your own NCE patch and play like that? Im ok if Vanilla system is applied to moded armor, I dont want to to the patches tbh.

Really weird seeing the youtube guy known for exploits complaining about an optional mod that makes armour work intuitively because it can be "cheesy" at times. Love the mod, I hope to see it in Kenshi 2 if the devs decide to repeat this weird mechanic.

>There are no other special tweaks or adjustments to give a player advantages or disadvantages
>In short, it's both.
Meanwhile, the mod strictly just gives the player a huge buff at no penalty purely to assuage the fact that the author is afraid of math more difficult than simple multiplication

Also "harder to hit the cap with negative armor pen" is the most ridiculous nonsense ever put to print. You literally can't even get the cap because armor has cut efficiency. Pretending that only one layer of armor exists when the entire purpose of the mod is to let you stack layers and be invulnerable, which specifically is most effective against negative armor pen where the bad cut efficiency of underlayers is supposed to have the most impact. And truly, the player so often finds themself having masterwork samurai armor but no access to shirts, what a sensible comparison.

Man, we're just going in circles. Yes, the damage goes down in that one very niche example of the best heavy armors against the weapon with worst anti-armor penalty because armor is actually working instead of being ignored (ignored by cap in this case, instead of ignored by layers). Yes, it's different from vanilla or developer intentions, because this mod changes vanilla. In vanilla, the same example from you is [MW] magically taking more damage than [SP] for both crab and samurai. Even if the main purpose of NCE didn't exist, that reason alone is still enough for me to want this mod over vanilla.

Better quality armor taking more damage than lower quality armor is dumb to me in any scenario. If you're a fan of that, by all means, don't use the mod. We have different desires on how a game should be played, which is what mods are all about. Pick what you like, ignore what you don't. But my man, you've been coming here to complain about a mod you don't like for over a year now.

@Lyston I stand corrected on the AP comment about AP doing less damage with your mod. So it's more OP than I thought. And as for the negative armour pen point, hitting 90% is very easy with your mod so unless you are wearing crappy armour I still stand by my point that you take less damage. Going from 19 damage (Crab Armour) to 10 or 18.25 (Samurai Armour) to 10 is a massive drop. (Also to add that it's cut damage which means super OP for Skeletons who repair it at 250x normal healing speed)

Don't think you can really say it's a "problem". It's the way the resistance was made. It's why cut resist isn't like blunt resist. Armour is supposed to mitigate cut damage a ton but with reduced effectiveness for each piece that is used.

All I really got from this is that in one instance of a very low cut eff item (And only one item) you take very slightly more damage and at all qualities for AP you take less. Then at higher qualities you take almost half damage from negative AP.

I quite like the fact that this mod is the closest thing to a nerf to bows mod. Ranged characters don't have a "attack slot", so they can shoot a volley at will. Dust bandits can easily stun lock someone with toothpicks

Besides the cheese of bleeding/kiting vs stronger foes and the absurdity that badly made arrows from a nerf gun can pierce high quality armor. It is bad that Harpoons take a nerf tho, but it is what it is, One thing i found to fix this issue is putting the game in a x2 damage, so you can pierce harpoon resistences and still do ranged damage with high-end weapons and even toothpick against badly armored opponents.

2/2

"Also your AP comment is wrong."
Not for single layer. Taking a generic armor that has 50% CR and 50% CE in vanilla, and 25% CR with NCE

Vanilla
30% AP: 50%->35% CR. Take 65 cut + 25 stun = 90 damage.
-30% AP: 50->65% CR. Take 35 + 25 = 60.
NCE
30% AP: 25%->17.5% CR. Take 82.5 (8.33% more resistant).
-30% AP: 25%->32.5% CR. Take 67.5 (12.5% less resistant).

If layered, stun from +AP gets COMPOUNDED across layers (stun off unmodified total, but passes modified remainder to next, which does the same), so a target takes a lot more vanilla over NCE (because it's compounding the very problem NCE was made for), while -AP stun gets diminished and the value of vanilla and NCE gets closer to identical. With 2 layers of that generic armor,

Vanilla
30%: 100->65->42 damage, +25 +16 stun = 83
-30%: 100->35->12 damage, +25 +9 stun = 46
NCE
30%: 100->83->68 damage
-30%: 100->67.5->45.5 damage

50% CE is the most extreme example; higher CE has smaller difference with +AP.

1/2

Ah, there is a mistake. Since it's been like 4 months since the last time you poked me about this, I forget what I did wrong - if I took NCE SP crab armor CR for vanilla crab armor, or maybe I was looking at samurai armor but still had crab armor in my head. In any case, it is true of samurai armor. I'll correct that.

"I'd argue it's a massive change "
It's also the single only massive change, because it's the only example that still uses the exception of exploiting armor capping in [SP]. It doesn't represent every other armor in the game or even all the lower tiers of that same armor. With [High], vanilla takes 20.7+6.1=26.8, NCE takes 28.6. Without hitting the cap, it's not a massive change with AP. Even then, if vanilla [High] takes 27 and [SP] takes 18, what would you _expect_ [MW] should take as an improvement over [SP]? Certainly not 19. But we've been over that enough I think.

Also your comment, "In short: this mod will make targets slightly more resistant against +APs and slightly less against -APs compared to vanilla." is wrong. Unless you messed up your values AP weapons should do the same exact damage as before if using one armour piece, or they do less if using multiple armour pieces. And I'd argue going from 17.8/19 damage to 10 is a massive change so it's not *slightly more resistant*.

"-(Mod) [SP] CR is increased from 63% to 82%, pass 18 damage to next layer. Total of 18 damage."

-Your mod changes the cut def bonus from 0.1 to 0... That means at Specialist quality it has 70% Cut resist. 70 x 1.3 = 91. As 90% is the cap the result is 10 cut damage with your mod.


"-(Mod) [MW] CR is increased from 81% to 90% cap, pass 10 damage to next layer. Total of 10 damage."

-Your MW Crab Armour has 81.25% cut resist but yes 10 damage is the total just like with the specialist one. With your mod with both qualities you take a little more than half of normal damage for just one armour piece.

Heads up btw in your examples...

"-(Vanilla) 100 cut damage (with -30%AP), [SP] Crab Armour's Cut Resistance is increased from 70% to 90% cap (70%*1.3=91%), pass 10 damage to next layer, take 7 damage from efficiency (70%*(1-0.9)=7). Total of 17 damage."

-SP Crab Armour has 78% CR. So it would be 17.8 damage base game.


"-(Vanilla) [MW] Crab Armour's CR stays at 90% cap, pass 10 damage to next layer, take 9 damage from CE (90%*(1-0.9)=9). Total of 19 damage."

-19 damage is correct.

@adamaxis It's not really an issue. It's how it was made to work. Armour mitigates cut damage a lot more than blunt damage but as a trade off stacking armour has diminishing returns.

Nice mod but this is very overpowered late game. Im taking 0 damage against high end paladins lol

Hi @Lyston and @FrankieWuzHere

The author of RE_Kenshi BFrizzleFoShizzle has mentioned in the past that he can fix the problem with cut efficiency via injection so that it properly moves through all armor layers before becoming irresistable.

You should get into contact with him, the potential for modding via RE_Kenshi is way higher than what currently exists with the FCS.

@Izadumb1 this is discussed in the mod description, at the bottom

Question: why not just rework on how cut efficiency works? Make it so that cut efficiencies stack on each other so you don't have to go on a cut efficiency crusade just to remove that one stat.

Is this compatible with Genesis?

@holyjaw
Yes, those armors will use the normal efficiency system.

If I'm missing a NCE patch for a modded armor will it work normally using cut efficiency without issue?

@Blue
Why?
That's how it works in real life.
If I'm wearing full plate, and you hit me with a katana, even if you wailed on me all day, you won't have hurt me at all.
The armor will have done it's job and fully prevented me from being hurt.
*That's* the "defend against" the attack. It's not cheating, it's realistic.

This feels like a cheat, lol.

You should never *not* take *any* damage when hit.... if you defend against it that's fine.. but getting close to immunity is.. not great.

I will add real quick though my math on the 1% dmg taken is incorrect. You can only mitigate 90% of dmg taken no matter the stacks of armour if a weapon had -AP on it. Even if you had 20 90% CR pieces of gear on (Somehow...) you'd still take 10 dmg from a 100 dmg hit if the weapon had -AP.

Eh I'd rather take some damage when hit instead of taking literately 0 damage. Taking 0 is cheaty.

armoured rags still have nce.

2/2

Your tin can example is another that only frustrates me. In the same example, a [MW] Tin Can would take 31 stun damage, but a [High Grade] Tin Can takes only 100*65%*0.35 = 23 damage. Less, despite lower quality. Does that sound right to you? Because of poor design with CE, you take less damage from less resistance, and lower quality becomes situationally superior. Against a 15 damage toothpick bolt, a [Prototype] Tin Can takes 1 damage, but [MW] takes 5. That's +400% more damage from what should have been better armor.

To me, it is a broken mechanic. This isn't a perfect fix at all, but I still prefer NCE utterly.

It depends on what the player values. I've never claimed the mechanic isn't working as the dev intended, but I do hate its implementation for a variety of reasons. A player shouldn't take more damage from wearing a higher quality piece of the same armor in ANY situation. It shouldn't be a thought. It shouldn't be a consideration. It shouldn't happen. But it can and does. You yourself brought up -AP and crab armor. Now do the math for katana damage to [Specialist] Crab Armour and [Masterwork] Crab Armour in vanilla. Because efficiency damage calculates before AP, and because both armors are treated as 90% CR as the max, [Specialist] takes less damage than [MW]. Not even the same, just less.

1/2

My main point is that if a mod is a "fix" it shouldn't break tons of damage mechanics. Animals become a total joke, stacking armour makes you invincible vs ranged damage no matter your Toughness level, -AP weapons will do A lil under half dmg vs heavy armour and a lil over 1/10th dmg vs 2 pieces of heavy armour.

Just tired of people suggesting the mod as a fix for a mechanic which is working as intended. I mean heck,

Patch 0.98.41

"-Medium and light armours now have less cut-converted-into-stun damage penalty, especially the coats and leather shirts"

There is a balance between Coverage, Resist and Eff.
There's a reason why the only two items in the game (That I know of) which have 100% cut eff are Heart Protector and Samurai Boots. They have horrid coverage.

Animal dmg is mostly pierce damage. To give an example a Bull with a 20 quality weapon (Mid level) with 100 all stats at age 1.0 (Wearing a backpack so it doesn't get the 10% naked Dex bonus) does 201.464 + 2.08 damage... If you remove the 1.0 piercing damage from their weapon they do 35.464 + 2.08 damage. Now to be clear you aren't doing to be encountering 100 all stat bulls but the point is that 166 of that 201.464 damage would be completely removed from the damage taken because of the NCE mod.

Harpoon/piercing damage works like this... Imagine a Masterwork Quality Tin Can.

Cut resist = 90%
Cut Eff = 65%
Harpoon Resist = 180

Harpoon dmg is basically this... When I mention cut resist 90% = 0.9... Cut eff = 0.65 you know the deal.

Damage taken x Cut Resist x (1-Cut Eff) = Stun damage taken

Unlike with cut damage you don't take any flesh damage until the harpoon damage exceeds the harpoon resist.


Imagine a Crossbow did 100 damage flat (Toughness doesn't matter pre calc) and hit the dudes head. So for this helmet you would take 100 x 0.9 x 0.35 = 31.5 stun damage.

I'm assuming you gave Tin Can 81.25% CR right..? Either way it wouldn't matter because with 100 Cut Eff even if the resist was 1% you would take 100 x 0.01 x 0 = 0 stun damage.

I've updated the description to include a list of points various comments have raised regarding how NCE changes the game. And apparently I've hit the char limit for a description so I had to trim it down and abridge it tremendously.

Actually, I looked up ranged damage on the wiki. The description isn't clear on all the nuance, especially regarding layers, but it makes a point that it calculates additional damage from the cut efficiency -- specifically, Stun = HR blocked * CR * (1-CE). Due to harpoon resistance's subtractive (rather than multiplicative) nature, it's not something that can be organically fixed. Using [MW] Plate Jacket as an example,
-57% CR
-70% CE
-33pt HR
Then so long as a ranged damage would have exceeded the HR, I could easily adjust it to match by reducing the HR by the predicted max stun (~6, from 5.643).
OG: 100 damage bolt, 77 exceeds HR, +6 from stun, for 83 total
Attempted fix: 100 bolt, 83 exceeds HR (33-6=27pt HR), for 83 total.

But that would have no affect on anything below HR, ie
OG: 15 bolt, 0 exceeds, 2.5 damage stun, for 2.5 total
Attempted fix: 15 bolt, 0 exceeds, 0 total

The point stands clearly. There's no perfect fix. I should still adjust HR, but what a bummer.

It's fine if you think so. I just prefer it when things do what they say they should. Likewise, I consider exploiting the max DR limits as undesirable, but it's fine for those who prefer it as an option. It's a singleplayer game after all. Play how you want.

But I am interesting in one thing, the range damage. I haven't touched Kenshi for awhile and don't have it set up anymore to mess around with to verify. I never touched the harpoon resistance, nor have I ever looked into its calculations. Since you seem to have messed around with it, how is changing cut resistance or cut efficiency affecting harpoon resistance? If I come back to Kenshi again I'll look at it specifically, but I previously thought there was no connection. If there is, I'll probably revisit this mod to update the values if I can.

Base game vs Bonedog with 100 all stats (Backpack on to avoid naked +10% Dex bonus) using the 20 quality weapon they can spawn with vs a Greenlander with 50 Toughness.
Dmg values shown are cut and then stun, and then I add total damage on the right. Armours listed are Masterwork.

No Armour = 185.856 + 2.08 (187.936)

Crab Armour = 10.2856 + 17.42384 (27.70944)

Crab Armour with your mod = 19.2855 + 0.6968 (19.9823)


The damage reduction gets even worse if you were to have changed Crab Armour correctly to be 85.5 cut resist, or if you have other armour pieces on.

Due to this, the fact it causes ranged weapons do zero damage unless they do over the harpoon resist of your armour, Katanas do a little over half their normal dmg vs a single piece of heavy armour in the base game and under 10% of their normal damage vs heavy armour in base game if two armour pieces mitigate damage... I stand by my opinion that this mod is a cheat mod.

Little heads up upon more testing you actually underbuffed some armour pieces... Vs negative armour pen that is actually a buff but anyways onto the point. An example is Crab Armour. Base game it has 95% cut resist at MW quality. Max CR is 90% ofc however with your mod it is 81.25. If you took the cut resist it normally has and just multiplied by by the CR like in your example it should be 85.5. To add as well you take 0 crossbow dmg from this mod, a fraction (Or 1% dmg if two Heavy armour pieces block dmg) of the damage you take in base game vs Katanas (1dmg from a 100 dmg hit sounds balanced... Base game would be a little under 10 dmg) and while working on an FCS guide I discovered that my earlier comment about armour mitigating between 5 to 10 dmg from animals is wrong. It's a lot more than that.

genesis armor patches? i use this mod but only a vanilla in genesis that effected. since there is other armor addition.the vanilla armor works but other addition armor still have CE.i added a few patched mods that available but still have other that doesn't. sorry for my english

Now and then, I consider removing this and all of my NCE patches, so I'll come here and read the mod description to remind myself what it does. Every time, I accept my cluttered mod list's fate until the devs simply remove cut efficiency from the game (or implement it properly). It would be more helpful if there were a way to make the game stop recognizing cut efficiency in its entirety, or to make it work the way it should, but I know f**k all about modding and don't know what I'm talking about. Personally, I would suggest learning the addresses of the devs and writing lots of letters to them, maybe even knocking on their doors and talking to them about it, but I'm aging and do things differently.

This mod's necessary, as are the related patches affiliated with other armor and clothing mods. In fact, if you use any mod that implements cut efficiency, find the NCE patch right away. Don't be a Nails and wait till you have ten mods that need them.

To anybody confused about what this mod does!

It makes armor make more sense, and generally makes armor better. You'll take less damage overall, but what you will take is going to be a little harder to heal.

There's a lot of math that can be done to get damage values and such, but it's too big for these comments.

do NCE faction expanded compatability mods still work if the required Expanded Faction mods are all in Genesis? cause the mod list says dependency not found but thats because its in the all-in-one Genesis modpack

the first time i read about this mod i thought it was just made because someone thought the damage calculations were too intricate or complex. reading the comments i just think its even worse than that

You sound like that cat from the movie "Bolt."