Does this work with SFO?

Wh3 Version! https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2871846896

Sorry to say, I do not plan on doing more with this mod until I can port it to WH3. I still don't know what I will need to change to port it to WH3. Any changes I make now would likely have to be redone when I port so it would just be doubling the amount of work.

I will almost certainly need to change stats when going to WH3, so I will review feedback then when I am bringing it up to speed with WH3's units.

would depth guard handgunners be possible? perhaps using empire handgunner animations?

I also run a mod that gives all ranged units aside from artillery a 360 degree firing arc, which allows skirmishers to fire back at chasing units as they run. Which not only makes them a bit more viable but gets rid of that whole-unit synchronized stop-and-go routine. What's interesting is that there are already animations for this.

When squaring off against the ROR version of the Free Company, their closest contemporary, the Depth Guard Pistols definitely struggle. Both units fill the same sort of role and the ROR Free Company tends to eek out a win by sheer numbers of AP-damaging units. They are one of those cases where if you can charge them down and engage in melee, you should. Both units are melee/skirmish hybrids but DG have the armor advantage even though there are fewer of them, whereas simply skirmishing puts them at a distinct disadvantage.

The Pistol variant feels like it should have been the de-facto standard for the Vampirates. It's such a thematically appropriate unit for their roster. Much more so than a dual-axe berserker and a halberdier. With the little tweaks to their stats, the Pistol variant fills a very capable role as a heavily armored flanker or to run down and gun down routing units, but I found they also perform fairly respectably as what I'm going to call a "Stormtrooper". Shock Infantry, I suppose?

If facing off against lower-tier infantry that lack AP attacks or against other skirmishers, having the Pistols charge the enemy line, opening up with a few initial salvos and taking advantage of their fear-causing nature, they can do a commendable job at breaking lesser infantry quickly or shutting down opposing skirmishers/ranged behind/within enemy lines.

I ended up removing the Bonus to Infantry from the Shields entirely as it didn't really make sense for them to suddenly have an infantry bonus just for having a shield. I understand it's meant to encourage and reward their usage as front-line infantry but it ended up giving them an unfair edge on top of the baseline stat increases.

Which I can't stress enough how much of a difference the un-nerf makes. Without your mod, the Vanilla Depth Guard still lack unit-type versatility, so even with the stat buff they end up getting smacked around by similar, significantly cheaper units. However, with your mod and the un-nerf mod together, the Depth Guard get that little buff they needed, as well as getting some much needed unit versatility to square off with their contemporaries.

So, the final stats I ended up with after extensive testing are:

HP: 6600 (102 per unit - up from 101)
Armor: 100 (up from 90 - Shields upgraded to silver shield)
Leadership: 65 (up from 60)
Speed: 36 (unchanged)
Melee Attack: 44-(Pistols) 49-(Shields)
Melee Defense: 33-(Pistols) 47-(Shields)
Weapon Strength (Pistols): 48 (39 dmg - 9 AP dmg)
Weapon Strength (Shields): 56 (43 dmg - 13 AP dmg)
Charge Bonus: 17
Missile Strength (Pistols): 31 (7 dmg - 18 AP dmg)

I increased the DG (Pistols) Accuracy to 50 and the Bonus Accuracy from their projectiles to 25. The idea behind this is that as Melee Attack and Weapon Strength increase for melee units, their to-hit chance increases. For missile units this is tied directly to the Accuracy stat. The Depth Guard are directly referenced as "the Blood Knights of the sea" - they're meant to be the elite of the elite as their hefty price tag suggests. The increased accuracy helps offset the lost damage potential from having such a small unit size.

To that end I ended up downloading another mod called "Pre-Release Depth Guard Stats" after playing around with your units. Apparently these boys got a reactionary nerf bat after a good showing when they were first revealed. Using that mod's new baseline for the units, I went ahead and did a little tweaking of the stats for the shields and pistols and I feel like I hit a nice balance with these guys.

Not a problem. Part of the problem with the Depth Guard, I think is that they're considerably weaker than everything else in their class on top of having half (or in some cases less than half) of the unit size - leaving them open to being swarmed - whilst being just as expensive as the other arguably "top tier" units. So, not specifically an issue with your units, per se, but the shields and pistols felt just one step further down.

Kain thank you very much for the in depth feed back! I will consider buffing them, but I do want to clarify their use. They are a hybrid unit, so they SHOULD be getting killed by pure, armor piercing missile infantry. Think of them more as a version of elite free company militia. They are best used on flanks of your army. They are more for doing damage and flanking rather than holding the front line or fighting other missile units. Unless those missile units are also skirmish infantry/cav. They'll hold up much better against infantry than missiles, especially if they get to skirmish for a bit.

Empire handgunners use rifles, so not only do they out range them, but rifles have more power and armor piercing than pistols.

EDIT: Looking at the stats a bit more, the Depth Pistols and Shields seem statistically balanced alongside the their polearm counterparts, however polearm units are generally given reduced overall damage to account for their armor piercing/anti-large capabilities. As such, the Pistols and Shields should have their melee stats balanced alongside the 2-handed units, with a slight damage reduction and reduced charge bonus. Anti-infantry melee makes sense to add to both as well. Lastly, the ranged damage of the pistoliers definitely needs a bit of a buff. The Depth pistols have less damage than the Empire's *cavalry* pistols, while being a small unit size and extremely expensive unit.

Thank you kindly for the units! Only feedback I have to offer is unfortunately the Depth Guard (Pistols) feel very, very weak compared to their contemporaries in other factions and only slightly stronger than their zombie counterparts, making them overall far less effective *and* cost efficient than simply swarming with zombie fodder and using the other Depth Guard as flankers and supplementary troops.Statistically, it looks like you attempted to balance them next to other ranged units but didn't account for their severely reduced unit size and significantly increased cost. I know it's been a while since this was released, but if I were to suggest any changes, I would suggest giving these poor boys a bit of a buff. For comparison, I threw these guys, fully upgraded, into a fight with standard Empire Handgunners and got thoroughly wrecked which just feels very, very off. Other than that the units feel nice, fit in well and are a welcome addition to the roster. Thank you kindly. <3

9/11

Yes, that's what I meant) Ok, and thank you for your cool mod!

Updated with aforementioned changes! Thanks again for reporting the missing abilities.

If you mean the extra powder passive that the faction has, thanks for pointing that out, I missed that one. I'll add it to the depth guard with pistols and grenadiers. I will also add fire whilst moving to the depth guard with pistols.

It is unlikely however I will increase the unit size for the shields. I'd like to keep them the same size as the other depth guard infantry units.

Hi! Would you like to add a passive ''black powder'' for Depth Guard (Pistols) and Zombie Pirate Gunnery Grenadiers? That would be logical I think. And also increase the Depth Guard (Shields) to 80, since the small number has always been a problem for the infantry of this faction.

Try looking in unit_attributes_groups_tables, if the table isn't in the mod you may have to add the table in yourself, but that's super easy.

hi again, could you make the depth guard with pistols fire while moving ? Or direct me what to edit in PFM so i can do it myself ? I tried and just cant find it ... Thanks in advance.

You made the Depth Guard pistols! Amazing work !!!

Thanks for saying thanks! :) Always makes an authors day better when people say thank you and that they enjoy their work.

ey man just wanted to say i really enjoy this mod and to thank you for your work, wish there was more vamp coast unit mods and this one adds at least some of what i wanted thanks!

unfortunately the stats won't work with Radious balance which I prefer and play only with, but the new depth guard design is amazing. Fav+upvote for attempt.

I'd have to test if different guns would work with the existing animations on monster units, although I'm not quite sure what the point of those units would be. The mounted gunnery wight on a promethian animation might work though.

I've never messed with lords or heroes (yet) so I can't make any of those for now.

would it be possible to get variants of the big monster units (Rotting Promethians, Rotting Leviathans and Necrofex Collossi) where the zombies have different types of gun (zombies with rifles on the Rotting Promethians for example, would the animations used by Gunnery Wrights work for that?)

also while I've seen the idea for Depth Guard with rifles getting rejected how about Vampire Captains and Admirals with rifles?

while talking about existing heroes with different weapons what about Gunnery Wights with other types of gun?

@ Thrakerzod: I had been kind of wanting to do something like this, the problem is since I can only use already existing animations, that means I could only make Deck Droppers with pistol, rifle, or bomber animations. I had been wanting to make a melee Deck Dropper with Depth Guard, but since there are no melee animations I couldn't. I considered pistol or bomber Deck Droppers with Depth Guard, but then the Depth Guard would have to have zombie animations which would look bad.

would a melee version of Deck Droppers be possible?

@ Thrakerzod: According to the unit description, Depth Guard are a variant of Blood Knight. You could kind of consider them Blood Knight Infantry. They also aren't really in lore, pretty much something CA cooked up. Also adding cavalry, especially anything close to elite cavalry like Blood Knights would be pretty broken for the Vampire Coast and I like to try and keep my units all balanced and within the play style of their faction.

I don't want to seem like I'm shooting everyone's ideas down though. All your suggestions could be very fun units, they just may not fit into this mod so well. Keep unit suggestions and other feedback coming though! You all can think of and notice things I might not alone, so thanks for your help improving the mod.

I really appreciate all your ideas! However I do want to make sure this mod only adds units that fit with the Vampire Coast faction lore, play style, and mechanics.

@vo: I had considered greatswords, but decided they didnt fit with the faction very well. Vampire Coast is all about holding the line while ranged does the work. Giving them elite, armor piercing units that can go toe to toe with other greatsword units kind of breaks that play style.

@ Von Steel: Depth Guard with Rifles is the suggestion with the best chance, but I'm not sure how I feel about a heavily armored range unit for this faction. I worry this would be a range unit people wouldn't have to worry too much about protecting which would be very strong for this faction.

@ Blitz: Sadly animations don't really work like that. I can't tweak or combine animations, I can only use what is already in game, and that is even further limited by race.

Blood Knight Depth Guard perhaps? Luthor Harkon is supposed to be of the Blood Dragon bloodline so it'd make sense for at least some Depth Guard to go the mounted route of Blood Knights.

you talked about no dual wielding pistol units in game but what about maybe trying something with pistoliers on the empire roster, not a very useful unit so often forgotten but if you maybe can use a similar animation they use on a unmounted unit then it may work, just a suggestion or thought you could use, honestly though i am interested in the grenediers as vamp coast lacks angled firepower (like crossbows/archers) making sieges annoying unless you use mortar spam

yeah and a long gun version for depth guard. great work as well!

ey man love the saucy mod ;) if its not too complicated was wondering if you can add a greatsword version for depth guard ? anyway thankful for your work love it

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Savitar, the grenadiers are meant to be more of a weapons team rather than upgraded bombers. Kind of like the skaven mortar team, but less armor piercing and more effective at slowing infantry and damaging unarmored units. Since there is no other unit like that in the game though I am always open to thoughts regarding balance. I am also curious about the role you wanted to use them for, or if you are just talking about their animation.

Regarding weapon models and animations, I am limited to what is already in game. So I have to take pistols from existing Lords or units, and put them on the units I make. If I wanted to give a unit a weapon like a sword, axe, gun, etc, I'd have to borrow one that is already in game, I can't make my own. I also couldn't make a dual wielding pistol unit because there is no dual wielding pistol unit in the game for me to copy an animation from (that I know of). Animations and armor are also usually even harder because they can be limited by race.

Dewrill, if you make a SFO version feel free to publish it to the workshop! I'm sure a few other people would benefit from it. I'd be happy to help with any questions you may have about it, all I ask is you put a link to this page on the SFO mod page if you do make it.

Hey bro great mod once again. The shields look fine actually after seeing them in action more. One thing I hope to ask is if you reduce the range of the grenadiers. It looks a little strange them shooting like motors, though I really appreciate them working as a higher tier version of the bombers. Also would it be possible to replace the axes of the shielded depth guard with swords the color of the armour, unless you think axes work best. And a variation of the depth guard dual wielding pistols.

I definitely plan on checking out your paypal bro. Please let me know if these changes are possible

started fiddeling around witht he values myself^^ i just compare them to the already changed basic Depth Guard and adjust according to feel.

then i toss the normal depthgaurd the pistols variant and the shield variant into a battle against basic zombies and see how they fair.

once im pleased with that i might clean up and toss out a compatabilitypatch. IF i can keep myself focussed on it for long enough^^

So far i can say the biggest diffrence is Numbers (40 instead of 60 in sfo) Armor (a little more needed) leadership (maybe 10 diffrence, so also a little more) and weaponstrenghts (80+ instead of 40) all other stats look similar enough. +/- 2 or 3 points.

Depthsguard ranged damage might need some beef up though, for a top-tier ranged unit that has a fraction of the units. gotta fiddle with that.

Glad to hear you like it! Sadly I've never really played SFO so I wouldn't know what needs to be changed.

alright. who do i have to pay to make a SFO scaled version of this?

honestly. i pay you. doesnt matter who does it. it has to be done. Coast needs more units. and Pirstol Depthguard are by far the coolest thing ive ever seen since the invention of Chocolatechip icecream

yeah I agree

It's not dumb, I've thought about it myself. However I don't like my unit mods to change the way a faction plays, and VP is all about just holding while guns do damage. Cavalry or anti armor infantry wouldn't keep to the faction playstyle and make them a bit OP too.

i know this might sound dumb, but how about making a cavalry for them ? with crabs maybe if not horse, and some greatsword units ? it will be so nice to have a roaster of this bad ass since they are kindas blood knights related

I'd like more variation on the shields too, but I couldn't seem to find anything that fit. Making new shields from scratch takes modeling work which is far above me, so let me know if you think of a unit who's shield my work.

Nice bro. models look good, Maybe something to make the shields pop more would be good. Dual wield pistols for depth guard? Great work man. So glad to see my favorite faction getting love

Ah, got it thanks

Please read the FAQ.

are we allowed to make requests?

Updated pistol models, thanks for the idea The_Detriment.