I think it's extremely thematic, perhaps a ranged option other than slingers would have been nice, as the 'decay' mechanic on slingers meant that eventually they became husks, and so garrisons of ranged units were harder to acquire.

I say that, but crossroads bargains exists, so really it works fine, I especially enjoy mixing your demonologist with the COE expansion mod as settlements get watchmen and such.

Whatever you end up making next just know me and many others will appreciate the flavor, thematic play style and fun of it solo or occasionally with friends.

Glad to hear that people still enjoy my work, although by now - when trying to design my next class - I really feel Demonologist especially might just be a bit too bothersome with the mechanics I have given him. Very thematic, but very cumbersome. Well, anyhow, thank you for the kind words.

I just want to thank you so much for all of these awesome mods Pascal, I still play with them randomly whenever the mood for something semi morbid strikes.

Honestly that sounds like a really cool idea, too bad it didn't work- though honestly I have been using them as "Siege Fodder" for non-citadel towns to pretty good effect, so long as the altar and cult leader have good spells they can chew through sieges as long as they have enough time and the Anointed certainly buy a decent amount of time, especially compared to sacrifices.

I was asking because of the flavor text rather than balance, it made it sound like if I kept em alive for long enough something would happen.

Ah, right. Some trivia. My original plan was, to upgrade them into Blood Martyrs upon reaching a certain hp threshold with their drain attack, but sadly it seems technically impossible to use 'growhp' like I wanted to use it. So, they kind of are a relic of this old plan.

No, not yet. There are some plans for them, but right now they are just a cheap and fast way to get some bodies to the frontline, that can perform badly but not totally awful.
I already heard from some other feedback, they may be too late-game to fit this role very well and therefore you are not the first person to expect more from them.

If I ever come around to do my 'Dark Triumvirat' update, they shall get their own upgrades into Crusaders for the unholy cause. But right now, there is not much to do with them.

I have been trying to figure it out on my own, but do the Blood Anointed have any secrets/upgrades?

Nice, thanks for the answer

In-game they are called 'Wormwood Spirit', an upgrade for Swollen Host/Eversick available for Level 3 Demonologists, kinda your siege weapon, since you have no Catapults. I often name files before I know, how the unit is supposed to be called in-game (or change those in-game names several times until I am satisfied) and then I never remember to re-name the sprite names.

The final name, Wormwood Spirit, is a reference to the biblical Book of Revelations, where a star falls from the skies and turns the waters of earth into poison, and this star (who might also be an angel) was called Wormwood.

As a note- May I ask what "Rotten Angels" are? I was looking through the files trying to figure out hw this all works and saw a file labeled "rottenangel01"

By the way- Thanks for confirming I wasn't seeing things with the Salesman dieing/notdieing thing

Also- I checked again and Skirmishers are apparently +15 gold now? I am unsure if I was blind or it changed but I would guess that it is the former rather than the latter.

Thank you for the compliment.

As for if the crossroad units are balenced or not... I think so. I want to test them out a bit more but they are tough enough to eat a hit or two from most units, and they deal decent damage from what I have seen. I do want to test them against celestials because of their charm immunity.

2/2

When a Salesman/master dies, it turns into a Crossroad Shadowform (looks like the Shades he summons) and this Shadowform is immortal (its lore mentions why). There would have been some technical considerations I did not want to face in making the Salesman himself immortal, but since you as a player cannot terminate the Crossroad Deal as long as it is active (unlike the Cult Business) I thought a way to save the Cultist would be in order. I might mention it somewhere in the ritual description... but yeah, positive surprises are a good thing, I suppose.

Glad you enjoy the changes, by the way. And your user name is quite fitting for the topic at hand.

1/2

Mm, I have not considered otherplanar immortality, but that is an extremely cool idea. I would need to test, how that plays out, but yeah, thanks for the suggestion. A Crossroad Commander I might add as well, good point. And, no (or yes, perhaps) you are right, at the moment there is no further (hidden) use for this units.

The upgrade from Crossroad Soldier to Skirmisher should be half the price you mentioned, 15 gold, therefore with a Salesmaster you only save 5 gold by buying them directly for 70 gold instead of 75. I understand, you deem the prices fair? I was afraid, it might be a bit too much, considering that especially Crossroad Soldiers with their low ini perform badly in many encounters. Ranged units usually perform better, so I had to put the Skirmisher/Manhunter prices even higher, otherwise I would never consider using the only-melee variant in the first place.

That all said- Are crossroad Salesmen/masters immortal, somehow? I have had them die every once in a while only to have a "X has turned into a Crossroad Lurker" event message and poof- They are on a nearby citadel. There isn't anything about it on their character page but... yeah.

When you start with the crossroads, the deal is 40 gold for 7 Crossroad Souls, +20 gold and 5 iron to convert the souls into Crossroad Soldiers (Full price 60g, 5i.) and +30 gold to convert the guard into Crossroad Skirmisher (Full price 90g, 5i.)

When you get the Crossroad Salesmaster you lose all access to Crossroad Souls and can instead by the Crossroad Soldiers and Crossroad Skirmishers directly. Crossroad Soldiers cost 50 gold 5 iron, 10 gold less than before, and Crossroad Skirmishers cost 70 gold and 5 iron, a full 20 gold cheaper.

Additionally, Both guards and skirmishers gain an additional upgrade path, Crossroad Soldiers can be upgraded into Crossroad Guard for 20 gold and 15 iron (Full price 70g, 20i) while Crossroad Skirmishers can become Crossroad Manhunters for 30 gold and 10 iron (Full price 100g, 15i)

I don't think they have any further upgrades, or any use besides "Is a decent stabber/stabbie and cannot be charmed" and while they might not be gifted at attacking fortifications they are reliable on the field

Honestly, my only request would be that I would love some sort of "Crossroad Captain" or mobile Salesmen so I can have full "Crossroad Hunting Bands" with only Crossroad units in them. Also- I was not yet able to enter the inferno so I need to ask- Do Crossroad Units spawn in Inferno when they die? Giving them all the "Planar Immortality Inferno" tag (And possibly, a "If in inferno transform into Sinners, or make them become part of the demon faction) but that might be too much.

Certainly changed stuff, I am just enthralled by everything

Update is out.
Now I hope for some feedback, to know, if I adequately addressed the concerns regarding the slow early game and such.

The promised day has come, the Crossroad Update is upon us.
Finally you can recruit some solid early-mid game units by more usual means (not usual, just more usual, mind), to fill your ranks, until the Cult Economy is going and your semi-demonic monstrosities can devour the enemy.

The new system should also accomendate a summon heavy playstyle way better than before, as it relies far less on the Sacrifice resource than the upgrade mechanic.

I hope this change addresses the most popular criticism of the mod and changes it for the better.

My final testing phase is still going, so consider this your savegame warning as well, as the update will impact those as usual, due to some of the additions.

Part 2:
Therefore I did not calculate Blood Sacrifices (unit) against Sacrifices (resource) in a gold/output-ratio, but balanced more around how many you need for upgrading (which, again, is not very much in my experience, since the few are already very strong.)

I have to admit, I never really considered the implications of a negative gold income, that needs to be fixed. I think, Cult Patriarchs should have to ability to change into a 'collector' mode, where they can't use any rituals, but produce 5 gold instead of costing 15, giving you the ability to switch, when needed.

'Meant to be played' is nearly impossible to determine, I think, since it may depend on your era and map size and so on, but I can share how I play them at least, on small or medium monarchy or agriculture maps.
Usually I focus on one mayor city, where I rush the Blood Idol and the Cult Patriarch as fast as possible, with a few low-tier altars scattered everywhere and only one other Cult Leader in a village, if nearby. That already is a very solid basis for most of my games.

Then yes, recruitment is key. The price feels high and you will have nearly no resources for summoning left, but Castigators and Mockingbirds just murder nearly everything, save for late game monsters. 40 of them can eat through 200 Baron units and win, usually. Honestly, most games I ignore summoning completely, which probably leads to the prices for upgrading being badly balanced for a more summon heavy playstyle.

I would be curious to know, though, how are cult leaders meant to be played? Rush to max tier? Save for mid/late game?

I was mostly just converting Blood Sacrifices > Sacrifices > Demon Summoning - should I have been using the recruitment more?

Also, have you run the math on Gold drain to Sacrifices produced? Is it equitable?

Going to give the mod another try here with another campaign soon.

Good to hear you're still working on them!

I think the constant gold drain just led to a bitter moment in my recent campaign where I had to abandon it. I had 5 citadels, 3 of which I had just developed through Blood Well - gold was about zero.

Horrors rolled through two un-upgraded citadels and many villages, suddenly I was at negative gold income. I just felt shut out of the game at that point, and couldn't un-cultify my leaders.

Such is CoE, though!

[2/2]

Inferno is definitely on my list, but there are other ideas I have a much clearer picture for in my head... I could do 'something' for Inferno, but I am still waiting for 'the' idea, if that makes sense.

Thanks for your well-formulated feedback.

Your criticism is welcome and not harsh (or uncommon) at all.
Right now I am working on an update for my Necromancer mod, but for the next Demonologist version I planned an alternative use for the Cult Leader, to recruit weak but cheap and reliable early game troops, to better get into the mid and late game.

Completely removing the gold cost, I don't think would feel right, because the late game power curve with the new units is... excessive. Even now I sometimes feel, the prices are too low, if anything.
But I will see, what could be changed here to make it... not more easy, but less frustrating. In the meantime, you probably know this already, you can just search the mod file for the keyword 'gold' and remove/lower the costs per turn from the units. I hope this way you can enjoy the mod even more.

Suggestion:
Lower or remove the gold per turn on the Cult Leader. It just feels bad to have a unit sitting draining your gold. If you suddenly get overrun on several positions and have 3 cult leaders up.... that -45 gold per turn will drive you into the ground.


Provide integration with Inferno cities. Currently you can set up an Altar but can't progress further, even at the Capital. Maybe an additional ritual that converts Sinners to Sacrifices? Or a ritual to place in a field of half-buried sinners.

I really, really like this mod. Harsh criticism but it is pretty much exclusively on the gold mechanics :-)

Con:
The gold cost is absolutely brutal, and crippled my army's development. About 1000 gold to fully recruit ---> upgrade a cultist + altar, plus tons of Sacrifices, then an /*additional*/ 15 gold per month. 15 gold per turn, Great Proselytize 3 turns and brings about 5~10 Blood Sacrifices.... 45 gold for at best 10 Sacrifices. By trading you can purchase 10 for 20 gold.

This is the single biggest turn off in the mod. With the gold penalty kicking in from the start, it often feels like a mistake to create a cult leader, especially if his position get overrun by an enemy (destroying your entire investment).

All in all the mod feels GREAT when you're ahead and well into the game, but trying to rush Cult Leaders cripples you heavily and feels like a trap. As it is.... better to never set up a cult leader and just trade for more sacrifices.

Did a Demonologist playthrough with War in Heaven and enjoyed it, then decided to give this one a go.

Pros:
Love the theme of leaving Cultists in towns and recruiting Sacrifices. The gameplay additions were well done, and the visuals were great. The Altars were pretty good at defending themselves, too. Top notch all around for units and rituals, and there was definitely some decision making when playing.

Recruitments were varied and interested, each with a niche. Loved the additional rituals the Goetic Master gets for them.

Fully compatible with War in Heaven:
> Set one to modprio 4
> Remove "clearrec" from the other

For sure a text change should be rolled into a full update in my opinion, be it lore-wise or grammar was. But it's nice to know it's on the list. And I only caught the grammar bit because I like to write myself so I constantly have to fix my tenses in my own work.

To 2:
I will see how to change the text, although it may take a while, until I make the next big update with new units and rituals and such, since I wanted to cut back on small updates due to the updates breaking savegames sometimes (even if changing a unit description should be fine, I guess?)

The 'leaves' - 'leaving' difference never really occured to me, due to my non-english background, thanks for the correction!

2. So this time I did catch the "Like plague the spirit swells in power, before its host burns out, then leaving the feast dry and empty behind." And I think the reason it didn't register before is the "Like plague" part. Plague's do swell in power and kill their host, but I'd never associate that with evolution of the host itself. So maybe just removing the first two words could help that easter egg be more choreographed. But I am one person going off of one other person' comment, so it's possible other people understood the possibility of transformation from that comment and outnumber us.
I have not encountered the infernal executioners so I can't speak on that one.

And a slight grammar thing to maintain tense "..then [leaves] the feast.." might work better than "leaving" since you use "swells" and "burns".

1. I do realize that the early was a bit slow on reflection, since it takes a chunk of iron and sacrifices to get meaningful units, so having a bit of a strong early makes sense. I was mostly afraid of demonologist simply being strong at every stage of the game, but they do still lag behind the moment an enemy can get close to two ranks of units to your handful of elites.

[1000 letters per comment are not enough]

2. You mean like in the 'Sickly Slinger' lore description?
"Like plague the spirit swells in power, before its host burns out, then leaving the feast dry and empty behind." It swells into a 'Swollen Host', then turns into a 'Diseased Husk'. Same with 'Eversicks', with the added comment of a "cycle of rage and restraint".
I can't quite imagine how I should describe it better, without an out-of-lore manual comment. Do you have a suggestion? Or are we talking about another unit? For the Infernal Executioners it is even in their ritual description, how long they are expected to live. Am I missing something?

1. Hellgate Guard(ian)s are extremely powerful, yes, but since everyone (including me) feels the early game to be relative slow and weak, these are supposed to mitigate the effect of it. Without them the start would be unbearable risky, I feel. Quite often they survive way into the lategame for me, but they can still die to an unlucky attack. Moreover, you can't really risk to attack to many enemies with them at once, since the enemy front will then often 'wrap around' the Guards and kill the commanders in the backline.

1. Am I just lucky, or are the 3 starting hellgate units way overpowered? I've been using them, my demonologist and a single imp tamer to take half of the camps I see with zero casualties.

2. I can see not revealing the final tier of recruitment paths, but if a unit literally evolves into another unit, I feel like that should at least be mentioned in the lore.

I have seen what I think is the demonologists final form. Didn't make it to the video, but I am running that game with the bystander mod so now I have completely conquered Elysium and am currently going to war with the celestial plane.

[max a 1000 letters? Fine, I will just write two posts, then]

But you all convinced me by now, I will find a way to make the early game a bit more fun. Probably not in the way anyone expects, but I will see what I can find.

A small update from my Baron Baron 1v1 small map Monarchy game.
A troop of 42 units mostly Mockingbirds, a few Castigators, minimal fire support by 3 Swollen Host and a Cultist just deleted the Barons main army (the one with the Baron) of 199 units and I had 23 units sill alive afterwards. I... don't feel like these units are fragile.

The hidden units are so on purpose, mostly, I think it fits the spirit of CoE that you slowly find out some secrets of the classes, rather than having everything explained from the beginning, and in future I probably will want to hide even more secrets.

Song of Roland (is that a reference to a certain medieval German text, by the way?) thanks for sharing your experience with the class, important advice. Have you yet seen the master upgrades for the units? Not the Hellgate Guard, but the others? From your videos at least it seemed maybe not. I am just curious.

Ok I lowered the difficulty to knight and had much more fun and beat a Pale one, High cultist, Bakemono and Senator on a large map. Only the Bakemono became a threat by mid game but I was able to distract his armies with raiders in his territory while I slowly got my end game armies ready.

I think it would be helpful if there was a hint somewhere that Castigators/Mockingbirds have a further upgrade enabled by the Patriarch, which is hidden behind the Blood Idol upgrade. It's cool but a little complicated to figure out at first.

Also discovered that sickly slingers evolve to swollen hosts if they get to live long enough, which are quite cheap and useful in the 2nd rank, at least until they evolve to the third phase! This mechanic was not obvious based on the unit description and at first I didn't know where they came from.

I also found the fodder unit that the Patriarch can convert, it's exactly what I was looking for, but available one tier too late in my opinion.

If I might have a suggestion Tor. Try focusing on a couple high value settlements and upgrading (both units and alters) rather than recruiting a ton of cultists and stationing them in hamlets. The most valuable piece of real estate I ended up with in my last game was a guard tower with a village and 3 hamlets within two squares of it. Walled towns are also super valuable. The start is tough, and you'll lean on the hellbound guardians you start with pretty hard, but once you get a good blood economy going... things can get kinda nuts.

I had some very similar complaints to you when I first tried the mod, and I do agree overall that the early game is maybe a bit under tuned, but once I got a bit more familiar with it I can't imagine playing a vanilla demonologist again.

Mm, I will try a 1v1 against a Baron Baron (well, that is how words work, apparently) soon, and see for myself how that match-up feels like. I think in my last great test run before first publishing the mod I played against a Knight Baron (and four other Knights in a any vs all) and defeated him mid-game. My Demonologist class actually felt a bit overpowered to me back then, since I usually prefer more relaxed games against Butler enemies, but I still did fine. Even after losing my main commander with army to the void in the early game and pushing back an Infernal Invasion.

Maybe the 1v1 will change the dynamic completely. I will let you know afterwards, if you are still around here in the comments. As always... balancing is pain.

I think we can't compete with the stronger classes like Kobold, Bakemono or especially The Baron which I got completely rolled over by. This is on baron difficulty. I was able to fight evenly with some other classes, though I haven't played against all of them with this one yet. It's alright if not everything is balanced of course.

I focused mostly on the Mockingbird upgrades for frontliners, I feel like I must have them because they're able to assault archers on walls, which we don't have our own archers or crossbowmen to counter with. I'll experiment some more with different strategies then. Yes Eversicks didn't look that appealing to me but I'll have another look, thanks for a cool mod by the way!

Hello Tor,

I hesitate to say, that you are missing something, but your experience does not match with mine, which is fair, quite a few people seem to play the class wildly different than I and have different results.

Do you use Castigators or Mockingbirds much? The power level of the units grows pretty good with each upgrade, and those two usually already take on a knight one on one and come out ahead half of the time. Then they eat through a row or two of spearman, usually. The best answer to armor is Eversicks, they don't seem very impressive stat-wise, but armor penetrating damage is quite effective here.

The reworked class works best, when not going wide with a lot of fodder, but by having a small amount of elite troops. That is my experience, at least. I hope that was helpful? I would like to understand better, why the class doesn't works for some other people. Which AI level do you play? Against which classes?

Hello,

I suggest that the basic spawned unit should be more useful since it actually costs a lot of gold to buy cultists and also costs gold per turn to have cultists deployed in settlements for recruitment. It should be able to compete with freespawn units at least, or be a bit better since it's not free. Perhaps 0 armor, small shield and a spear. Then it would fill a role as frontline fodder, since we have no other basic unit with a shield. The pierce resistant troops perform decently for that role but they're much harder to get in numbers.

The lack of a basic archer really makes the early-mid game tough. Battle mages and other random recruits seem to be hard to afford since you need to spend gold on expensive cultists which are occupied with villages instead of fighting.

We don't seem to have an answer to knights before we're able to get some infernal hordes out, because of our fragile frontliners and only 1-2 dmg slingers to back them up?

Perhaps I'm missing something?

Right now we have 666 subscribers to the Demonologist mod.
I just cannot leave this uncommented.
And thank you all for the interest, while I am at it.

There isn't really anywhere to leave this as a review or anything, but if you have read this far, and are curious I made a youtube video where I go over some of the mechanics and how the mod plays.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AsW-puxyeY

Very cool idea @Toppy, I also think that they did the demonologist bad.. I wish you could do more in the inferno, it really does not have much of a purpose except for a cool hidden base.

Unless someone experienced such a bug with only one mod active?
Then I would be clueless again.