nevermind top of the description

1.5 when?

@FrozenSnowFox: I'm so glad that you stuck with it honestly, that's a part of why I didn't want to step in, because we can never have enough talented modders adding to the game! And I was positive you would be able to find a solution (there always is), so thank you for not giving up either! Each "failure" is only one more thing to strike off that didn't work, and brings us closer to success, as is well the case here because I am loving the loot generation! Perhaps one day I'll be surprised by a C# mod after you decided to pick it up? Coding is all logic; if you can solve problems you're a programmer already! The languages are simple syntax anyone can learn.

@Deadmano
Personally I previously found this mod both annoying and a bit embarrassing. It was annoying that I couldn't figure out a solution to fix its underlying issues and embarrassing that something that should be so simple didn't work as intended. It was one of the big reasons I just wanted to throw it to someone else and wash my hands of it.

I tried many times to try to work out how to fix it but I kept getting stumped by the tech lock, item count and market value problems. I reviewed it a few times after your comments and got nowhere again. So I was ready to toss it aside once more. As I kept comparing it to my other mod though I realised if I just changed the overall approach it would work so much better and be much more balanced.

Thank you for your insistence to rework it. I'm much happier with how the new version works.

@FrozenSnowFox: Thank you for being willing to still work on this, and further refine your ideas, it is much appreciate! The new version seems to be working out nicely and I suspect (based on the values you're using) it should have far less of a "all or nothing" approach to loot this one had at times.

And I agree with the PackageID change, it makes sense people who want this specific version would grab it and other mods (including existing ones/patches) can still target the new one going forward.

@CurtimusPrime92
The only thing this mod touches is the loot table for camps so there shouldn't be any issues updating, adding or removing it. The packageid of the new version is the same as it was previously so any mods or load order information referencing it will carry over. I left the old version so people can stick with it if they wish since its a major change to the balance. The only problem is they'll have a minor inconvenience re-adding it to their mod list since the packageid changed.

or is new mod hotswap compatible with existing save game?

hey maybe instead of changing packageid breaking 3rd party tools and everyone's load orders how about just rename the mod like you did and have your new mod have packageid frozensnowfox.bettercamplootNEW or something...

I've made a revamp of this mod which you can find at the link below. I've modified the packageid of this version and labelled it as Classic. It is now discontinued and will no longer be worked on.

In the new version I've ditched the old idea of using market value as it never really worked. Instead I've rebalanced the mod so a camp is worth about 1-2 security crates from FSF Better Ancient Complex Loot. I've also added a slew of new items that can be found at camps making for more varied loot. For a full list of changes see the change log.

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3172074919

@Deadmano
I wouldn't want to tack the word balanced on any variant of this mod because everyone has a different definition and without it being based on threat level I fear it'll never truly be balanced.

@FrozenSnowFox: Understood, no worries! I'm in no rush as I have a few hundred mods to still test, create patches for, and then add to my ever-growing collection, so I'd much rather utilise the effort you have put in, even if it is just that; a "best effort", since it is far better than vanilla that is for sure! Regarding the more balanced approach, I would 100% be in favour of a "[FSF] Better Camp Loot - Balanced" mod! A more conservative approach that just aims to remove the junk, while giving a chance at slightly better stuff. How does that sound?

2/2

@Deadmano
Dropping the market value ranges a little would be easy enough but I don't think it would really fix the core issue. I've noticed the loot tends to go more haywire with higher tech factions perhaps because higher tech items are worth more. Fixing it somewhat would take a lot of testing and fiddling to get it right. I did a lot of testing to reach the current setting. With your comments I had the thought of trying x-y items with x-y market value, not sure how good that'd work though.

Personally, I'd rather not waste the time re-tuning things if you can make a more perfect fix. More importantly too drastic a change will likely upset existing users (I know I find such things annoying). So if I go changing things too wildly I'd likely need to release the update as a new version.

1/2

@Deadmano
I'm afraid I'm not knowledgeable with that stuff. I'd suggest checking over the code for the bandit camps to see what's going on there, I think its QuestNode_Root_Mission_BanditCamp. It looks like it might have its own threat point calculations. If you need some help the mod development channel on the unofficial discord would be the place to ask.

@FrozenSnowFox: Gotcha, no worries! I am curious if you'd still consider your revisit of it, to slightly adjust the values, just to get it to a point where it is still better than vanilla, without the garbage that came with it at times. If I get some free time I'll see what I can come up with. If you have an understanding of how the raid values are calculated/where the values are, perhaps we could work together and I could handle the coding on your behalf. I basically haven't touched anything when it comes to the bandit camps/loot.

@Deadmano
Thanks for the offer but I don't think I'll be delving into coding at this time. As mentioned I'd rather just hand it off to someone who can do it right and let them handle it.

The ideal version of this mod would be where the loot is based on the threat level of the bandit camp. So you factor in number of enemies, combat power and then calculate it based on an adjustable value. The end result being that you have rewards fitting for the danger that can be scaled to a players personal preference.

I'm not entirely sure how the vanilla code handles things but since I relied entirely on xml I had to bypass the raid points as using them resulted in lacklustre reward results regardless of how I attempted to tune it. While I can try to tune it a bit I'm afraid regardless of what I do I won't be able to eliminate the weird discrepancy where a bandit camp with 3 people gives the same loot as one with 30. For that it really needs someone to do a proper code based approach.

@FrozenSnowFox: If you want to go the route of coding it in C#, feel free to reach out to me, I'd be happy to answer questions/provide a baseline. That would definitely make it easier to adjust since all settings can be adjusted in-game. This is a very interesting concept, and with most things I'd rather appreciate the vision of the author, only making minor changes here and there to fit in with hundreds of other mods (the mod collection I am working on).

Thanks for the approval BTW, I'll see where you take things regardless!

@Deadmano
Personally I wouldn't mind if someone capable of coding made a superior version of this mod because I can't help but feel digging right into the code would allow one to make a more balanced and streamlined version. So far nobody has taken up that offer. If you'd like to make your own version or a variant in your tweaks mod feel free to do so.

As for my mod I haven't messed around with it for a long time. Perhaps its time I revisit it and try to retune it a bit. Although I recall the code based tech lock being a pain in the ass. The item count of 8 should be a debug parameter that is otherwise unused, although perhaps that's the default number? If I go overhauling it I might end up making it adjustable with XML Extensions. Your suggestion of changing the item count is a good idea and might help to balance things more.

Alternatively, any chance you'd consider release a more "vanilla friendly" version, that still gives better than the trash we had before, but not to the overkill lengths that is possible currently?

It'd be nice to see a comparison of before and after chances/values. Taking a brief look it seems as if vanilla/your patch spawn 8 items, and vanilla is $300 per item so $2,400 total? Whereas yours is in the range of $1500-$3000, is this correct? I wouldn't mind halved values, or perhaps a lower min ($500) and a slightly less max ($2500) what do you think? That might average it out better and still work out better than vanilla. Could also reduce the item count to 6?

Would you at all mind if I included this with my own tweaks I plan to release later on? I love the concept, but there isn't a middle ground between "vanilla friendly" and straight out "EZ Mode", and since there isn't a settings menu (yet) it makes it a bit tricky to navigate around. Normally I'd just create a patch to target your values, but at this point it seems easier to just directly change the values and incorporate them.

Thanks man!! Saved my plays!! Dont care if they are overtuned or way over top, its much more interesting to run camp hoping now... haha.. I just swidle all the bases. <3

@Phrozehn
If you want to change it you need only open the xml file in notepad and change the value range. The mod is certainly less than perfect due to me relying solely on xml. The rewards seem to get weirdly over-tuned with high tech factions like the Empire for some reason.

I truly love the direction of this mod, but the rewards are astoundingly over the top. Just raided a 1man outpost for the empire and got a Masterwork Grenadier armour and Cata helm, Good Prestige marine armour, and various masterwork articles of clothing. I'm only 53 days in.

Is there any chance of a) adding an item value range on mod options, or b) just reducing the base mod's item value range to something more like 300-1500?

My first few raids with this mod in my last playthrough gave me 2 legendary phoenix armours in addition to a bunch other great items. Just feels way overtuned to the point where it makes me kinda feel bad about my run haha.

Don't mean this as anything but constructive criticism :) Love the idea a lot. Just think that tuning it down will still make raids WAY more worth it without feeling like way to much of a power boost.

@Nicolas Cage
It's fine if you enable it or disable it mid game.

Do I need to start the game with this enabled, or will it work if I enable it midway during a playthrough?

@Dragon of Desire
The Bandit Camp loot relies quite a bit on code with how it generates things. Unfortunately with my inability to code I can't fine tune it as much as I'd like. As mentioned in the description I've attempted to add similar items before without any success due to how things are coded.

Any way you could add vanometric power stuff as rewards?

@Gamiseus
It's like that originally in vanilla but using the threat points I couldn't manage to get it to generate the desired results. I think the actual threat points required for such an increase in loot is probably far too low. I imagine its value is similar to quests. As I've mentioned before to balance things properly you'd really need coding since there's several factors that affect things but that's unfortunately beyond me.

Fixing the loot in Ancient Complexes's was much easier since the complex size and crates scaled with threat points. The crates themselves used loot lists. I simply assigned a sort of maximum value to each crate based on its rarity and when paired with the threat points it created a nice balance.

With just base XML would it be possible to read the wealth value of the location you're raiding and base loot off that? Like, I'm raiding 1 dude living in a shack and he's got a stick for a weapon. So based off the combined wealth that the game counts for all that, then the wealth of the generated loot can't be higher than X to prevent a situation like pklemming described.

Or are the threat points you're talking about basically the wealth of the raided area already? I don't know much about rimworld's modding so I could just be talking out of my ass.

Part 2 of 2
@pklemming
If you feel the reward range is too high you can open the file and tweak it but you won't be able to change the rewarded tech level. Without falling back to the threat points I can't really fix easy quests rewarding too well. Luck definitely plays a large part in the loot and sometimes it can be extremely good due to it. The balance will likely feel off early on if you're tribals raiding high tech factions. Later on though it should feel more reasonable if you look at the overall picture. Although the higher the enemy tech level the more it tends to skew to being a bit too good.

Part 1 of 2
@pklemming
I'm afraid there's pretty heavy limits on what can be done with pure xml. The mod is nowhere near as good as I'd like it but I don't think I can do much better unless I learned to code. Relying on the games threat points which would allow better scaling didn't seem to work very well which is why I used a preset range that ignores the difficulty. The reward is coded to be based on enemy factions tech level. So a tribal enemy will provide tribal loot and a ultra tech enemy will provide ultra tech loot.

An option to choose the loot value and categories in mods would make this far, far more useful. People could actually choose the level of loot they would get.

Sadly, for me, the balance was too far off. My LiF 500 tribals taking out a 2 person sun blocker got grenadier armour and a legendary top of some kind. We have only just got bolt action rifles. There was 1 person and a warg defending the base. That person would probably have done far better if they had worn the armour they were storing.

@apricotAfterglow
I'm not sure you'd have to test it. It depends on how they did their loot tables for the areas.

how does it work with larger bases mod and rim cities?

@Kenpachi
I'm happy to hear you found them useful.

I never got around to thanking you for all the interesting mods you've put out over the years... so thanks.

Thank you again! As far as your mention of RNG, that's X-Co....RIMWORLD, BABY!

@Turbo Rob
The loot spawned is based on the tech level of the faction owning the camp. High tech factions can spawn very expensive high end spacer tech loot. I think a lot of people find this an issue in the earlier game when their colony is poor and low tech. In a lower tech playthrough it should feel a lot more balanced since the loot isn't vastly higher than your own tech level. If you feel its too much you can edit the market value it spawns in the file to tone it down. However, just bear in mind RNG plays a huge role in the quality and type of loot.

Thanks! I appreciate your honesty about that describing your own mod. I'm building a collection for a medieval play through. Would you say it feel better balanced in that kind of run? Or do you mean tech level of the enemy faction you're looting and not the tech level of the world?

@Turbo Rob
The balance tends to vary quite wildly with RNG. Due to strings of bad or good luck people tend to complain its either too bad or too good. Personally I think its fairly reasonable although I've noticed with higher tech factions the loot can seem a bit much at times.

How is the balance on this mod? Does it go too far and make it OP or does it feel right?

I'm hoping this is what I'm looking for, I'm playing a Raiding ideology and I get most of my loot from raiding others

alright, thanks for the reply. im glad you made this mod

@FishFlop_The_CatSlap
That would be ideal but from what I tested in the past it didn't really work. I think you'd probably need to modify how the quest functions and how it generates the outpost. That's far too advanced for what I can do.

That sort of scenario isn't that outlandish, its not unusual for guards to protect something way above their pay grade.

i wish it would scale a bit more with the threat, one dude whose best armour was flak pants was guarding prestige marine armour and a cataphract helmet

thank you

Thank you!

@PremierVader
Yes it should work fine with Biotech. The loot table I modify is for the core game and from what I saw of the 1.4 update it wasn't changed.

Hello is it good to use with Biotech?

fungal fish it doesn't seem to affect faction bases with VBGE, only camps.

@FungalFish
I'm afraid I haven't tried the two together so I can't say how it works. It really depends how they're doing the loot. This mod simply alters the vanilla loot table used for base generation so it should be compatible with most mods unless they overwrite the same loot table or use their own loot table.