One of my favorite designs in the entire game.

that level was a bitch in fates

I can't tell which is more amusing: the argument in the comments below that's been almost as long as my killstreak (when playing Zenyatta :D ) or the actual model itself.

someone beat you to it

Oh but Episoder how could I not?

I mean if we were using cs-go they would probably be a better choice given how it recently got control over saturation and dither.
But we aren't using that. And that's real unfortunate because I would have loved to use cubemaps for some additional accuracy. It just looks awful in practice because of how incredibly underdeveloped they are in our branch.

Stuff from Darksouls 2 fairs pretty well when using it's ingame cubemaps. Probably one of the best in that regard.

Special mention goes to customhero for still being the best choice for this sort of thing but not working on pretty much every map. Thus being effectively worthless.
Which is a shame because it would have been absolutely fantastic for reflections on grazing angles. Albeit a little on the expensive side of things.

the heck. i said keep me outta this. the f*ck go with cubemaps. ofc it's an additive shade. ofc it bugs in the dark. ofc it's just that it only depends on what cubemaps you use. the engine internal cubemaps on the maps are usually okay per location. it's your static gold bullsh*t that doesn't work like that. btw sfm uses an advanced radiation mechanism that probes more of the environment for "pbr based" lowres lighting conditions for phong based highlights. ofc easy and looks closer and better to a smooth "metal pbr value". for a sharp "pbr metal" you stil gotta use cubemaps. now stfu.

and don't talk about the gunship. this is a whole different shader beast... a whole lotta more texture combiner mess to cram in the ram... then your lil llight mashing... mofos. deal with that. :)

Reaper was already made and exists in SFMLab though. You see him to be improved? And as for episoder, yes I'm aware of his gunship project and I'm not going to bother him with it. However, Overwstch isn't the first to utilize certain techniques such as the double meshes you know. Anyway, back to testing doubles for me.

Unfortunately no. There exist no method to broaden a highlight along a single axis.
A careful enough phognwarp can fake it to an extent given they can be converted to a 2d warp rather than an overlay for the highlight itself but it also falls apart depending on the angle viewed.


Also not really. I'm just bothering you for my own amusement at this point while getting a start on reaper. The first bit was just seeing how much you knew and then moving on to probing if you did end up having a method that could provide visually more accurate results. A shame you didn't deliver.

If you would like to delve further on your current topic may I suggest consulting Episoder? He would probably be more than willing to give your method a try using the gunship as a testbed. If only to just see how it goes.

You are one tough customer. All you are reading is the stuff to make fun of me. Nonetheless, I can keep going. So far, I already showed you a couple examples.

As for the hair, I know about anistropic reflections...and as for recreating them in SFM, I haven't seen a model that does it to an extent. However, couldn't you theoretically play around with the phong long enough to achieve the desired effect, too?

"I don't need proof"

Wow you finally said it.

So far, we are getting somewhere. This can be easily replicated in source by adding VMT lines such as $envmap env_cubemap and dimming it so it doesnt dominate the entire texture. Same with phong, though I don't need proof of that because Architect's model's phong is fairly close to what we see in the short. Probably not as clean, but definitely close.

Why don't you prove me wrong then?
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/overwatch/images/c/c7/Zenyatta_Reference_1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20160502200609
Zenyatta has a blue something on his forehead and if you look at some of his other pictures (google Overwatch Zenyatta), you will see it looks like it's reflecting something that wasn't in his texture to begin with. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7Yh_YywD-U Watch this gameplay and look at his head movement very closely. His texture seems to be moving when he faces a different direction and WHY? It could be an Environment Cubemap or something that greatly resembles an advanced Environment Cubemap, such as the praised PBR. That lighting on his forehead looks fairly familiar. You can replicate it with phong since the MAIN LIGHT is the sun. TF2 has that too, and so do almost all of the games running in Source.

Still waiting on that proof of concept by the way.

Because personally I'm still having a laugh over how you unironcially said "are you seriously challenging me?"

Overwatch uses anisotropic mask for hair. Or comb mask if we're being informal.
You 'can' get them working in source but only from certain angles. Not worth the effort.

Again, we don't know for sure and I want to test why the hell does Tracer have 4 meshes of hair. If the extracts didn't come with alternate skins in the very beginning, then why the extra meshes? For layering hair? Why are they the same exact size then? Some questions to ask, but it looks like this is actually not far from what can be done in SFM.

And now if we look at Zenyatta, other than the bodygroup looking weird when I inspected it in Blender, I did notice that the bumps were different so it could create the effect of shiny metal vs cloth. The system is similar to what was done for TF2, with the body all being one material, while relying on the bumpmap to make it look different. Overall, this technique is not used by a single engine, but many different engines. It could be what we are seeing in the game, we are not replicating correctlyor seeing it correctly in SFM. For instance, hair doesn't have an env_cubemap (though I might take it back if there is proof of a reflection), yet Seds used it. Not bashing Seds' work, he just saw it one way. However, it could just be either a normal cubemap, or a special phong use.

There are multiple ways to look at it, but it looks like because the Source Engine is not as advanced as the new engines, it looks like we are limited, but we may not be entirely limited. That is why our attempts to assign materials helped us with getting the model to look good in SFM, because we wanted it to be more applicable to the Source Engine. We didn't directly transfer the materials, but it's possible to play around with everything to give us the results Blizzard used. Then again, I don't think you will believe me because you yourself are not willing to test and prove me wrong. And that is fine. Which is why I am curious about why the 4 hair dupes in the extract. :)

http://cdn.gamer-network.net/2016/usgamer/Overwatch-Tracer-02.jpg
http://i.blogs.es/59eb31/tracer/650_1200.jpg

You can barely see it here, but notice that Tracer's hair is different material-wise from the body? Notice her goggles are also different material, as well as those metal parts on her body. The phong is different than her coat, and her track pants. I did get a bit more info from Rafa Knight, basically it's possible to have one material for the body, but it varies based on either the material assignments, what the model came with (texture separation, masks, etc), and bodygroups. I don't know if you looked at the actual rips in Blender or whatever 3D software you use, but there are parts of models that can be separated, like bodygroups. It could be that's how the engine understands how to process the materials that are different. Maybe the body is one whole material relying on good textures, good lighting, and good detail use.

Hair is generally duplicated to get around a sorting bug translucent has while softening the jaggies alphatest gives you. There's no visible z-fighting since they're pretty much identical.


Also lol nope. It is not my job to do that for you. If you cannot provide proof to back your proposed method everything you've said thus far loses all credibility.

Well go ahead then. Give us proof of concept.

3) Even though engines may be different, they may as well be sharing a lot of components, key or not. For example, Overwatch chracters have phong, cubemaps, bumpmaps, basetextures, etc. They may also have some extras yes, and we may not know where those go. However, a lot of the stuff is defined for a certain logic to create certain effects. That same concept may be applied to other engines, just with changes here and there. The extracts of the models from Overwatch didn't come with material assignments, yet we could tell that certain materials were different from other parts of the body, meaning there could be a VMT equivalent in the engine. Conversion is possible, but ain't nobody got time to make it exact.

Summary:
1) Environmental maps don't violate anything. If they work well in GMOD, and in Source games, it's possible that SFM is lacking in something those games have in their programming. (tested env_cubemap reflection with the Carbon Miku model in GMOD on a TF2 map and found COMPLETE reflections)
2) Phong is used to give a material an illusion or assumption of how it should look like it feels. As far as return color, diffuse, and reflections, not really. You can play around with the settings in the VMT, but that's all it really gives you. In a way, it reflects light, but I think it's just there to give the user more attachment to relatable objects.

@Velikhi Maikeru [SOUR], you've got to be kidding me.

Or there is something that we are missing out on... For example, why the duplicate hair models?

An object cannot give off more light than it receives. Envmaps violate this principle thus you may be surprised to know they should be avoided if possible.
The best answer is phong as it turns out by nature of it being a reflection rather than projection.

Although source handles phong... poorly. Rather the only way to get even midly acceptable results is through bug abuse. Using phong as a medium to return the color of the diffuse rather than to actually draw a highlight on the surface of the model.

And my god does it take a while to get it right. [orig06.deviantart.net]

On top of that every engine behaves differently and overwatch seems to be one of the rather odd ones. What method of conversion you would use for unreal 4 would not work for overwatch and vice versa.

Maybe...however...we have an alternate method of reflecting in Source without PBR. The point was to suggest how real mirrors, but how do you apply it in Source?

PS: Nice scythe.

At this point I believe you're deliberately misunderstanding what I say so you can prove some unusual sentiment to yourself. Whatever that may be.

Let me say this once before I start growing a bit too salty. I was referring to this model and not a mirror. If you want to create metal that reflects surroundings, env_cubemap. Reflects light, play around with phong. You want real-time reflection? Rt_camera (though it doesnt work very well). As for a mirror, the most reflective metal is silver. And you said that mirror function is one of the simplest concepts, yet SFM can't handle it.

>implying BlueFlytrap doesn't know what he's doing

please

Of course I don't understand. [orig03.deviantart.net] I haven't done it before like you have. [orig10.deviantart.net]

A mirror is just below pure white with the tiniest hint of green. Surface properties are being fully metallic (no diffuse) as well as having little to no imperfections on it's surface. Fully glossy per say. It gives off oh so slightly less light than it receives.

The realtime variant of physical based rendering is built off the principles that a mirror functions.
It's one of the simplest concepts for a physical material and should you grasp it metallics and dielectrics come fairly easily afterwards.

No, BlueFlyTrap, I don't think you understand what you are talking about. A mirror can be recreated with an rt_camera, but it doesnt look right on meshes with curves and you need to set it up with another camera which is not needed. Environment cubemaps are not real-time but they act as if they reflect the environment and are less costly. You can easily make and assign one to the model by typing "$envmap" "env_cubemap" into the VMT. Episoder, the only reason I tied you is because you had some extra things that I saw and agreed on. I know SFM cannot support PBR (I am again still seeing if I can somehow fake it with my own model), but adding a cubemap is EASY and definitely helps to make the model look more reflective.

a mirror is silver. basicly gray to white. but... @velikhi keep me outta your beef with @trap.

@Velikhi Maikeru [CONFLICTING]

I feel as though you are entirely lost. Let me ask you a question so you realize just what exactly it is we're talking about.

What color is a mirror?

BlueFlyTrap, are you seriously challenging me? If I didn't bring up SPECIFIC problems and how to fix them, then yes you would have a point. However, you CAN achieve the effects that I addressed here using some vmt lines, such as $envmaptint. I don't need your admiration, and neither do I need anyone else's. The goal is to have it look like Zenyatta, so the comments by myself and episoder tell you.

@Velikhi Maikeru [CONFLICTING]

Your attitude towards self improvement is admirable; but someone whom doesn't understand the task should not give advice as to how to perform it.

where are the orbs?

Eeehhh, the front drape needs some work and I cant find the orbs. what title are they under?
Still not too bad.

If you have any problems with getting the desired effects, you know what you do? Ask the community!

BEEF, no. Though yes, PBR cannot be achieved in SFM (though I'm still testing a method to fake it), cubemaps especially environment cubemaps just requires some short VMT lines. Phong is the same thing. Google it, or look at the effects used on existing SFM or TF2 content. It's important to know what those do so you dont fuck up the model. In the end, either BlueFlyTrap is making you see my recommendation from the wrong angle, or you are just being lazy. SERIOUSLY, I DONT CARE IF ITS YOUR FIRST TIME OR A SINGLE DIGIT-TH TIME PORTING SOMETHING TO SFM! YOU DESTROYED THE REASON FOR THESE MODELS TO HAVE BEEN SPECIAL! The only way you can fix that is by improving the models by taking criticism, such as this one seriously.

BlueFlyTrap, that is fucking bullshit. Phong and cubemapping can be controlled with some VMT lines. I won't give anyone them however because you can just look for them in the Valve Wiki for VMTs involving phong control and cubemap control. It's not impossible, yet it does require some trial and error or comparisons to come out right.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Who will you make next

@BlueFlytrap
Thanks for sticking up for me. I've seen your work, and it's amazing!

@TheBlueDiamondKid
The drap isn't attached because the model already had too weight links on it's vertices. If I were to reattach it, I wouldn't be able to export it. But still, thanks!

screw the shading for now. the model got obvious needs. it's got holes (left shoulder). there's a tool available that exports a proper reference pose for the skeleton. maybe you could put a nice default flying pose in it too. you could include the orbs in the model. it got bones for them. maybe add flexes to open them. add the glow. the selfillum is dirty. the diffuse uncompressed where you could compress it. the normal is compressed where you should not do it. and you gotta turn the model.so it faces the front.

that's just the lil things. but nice try. ;)

@Velikhi Maikeru [CONFLICTING]

With respect; It's an unreasonable request to make. You yourself would be unable to fulfill the very same request so do not pretend it is something easily achieved.

HOLY CRAP ZENYATTA THANK YOU SO MUCH XD

BlueDiamondKid, you do have a point. The metal definitely needs more phong, and there needs to be a dimmer cubemap for a lot of the metal parts. Other than that, the model does also need some $detail work to add some "dust"/"dirt" effects. And BlueFlyTrap, no matter how novice you are, you should still strive to make the model better.

Well i honestly dont know much about porting and textures so i dont really know if im asking alot so sorry :p

@TheBlueDiamondKid

Asking someone novice to perform a clean conversion of pbr to blinn is a little much don't you think?