Rising Storm 2: Vietnam

Rising Storm 2: Vietnam

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Wenzel 24 Oct, 2017 @ 6:05pm
Vietnam Hardcore - brainstorm and WIP
Hello, fellow tacticians!

My recent discovery of the RS2-development-kit on Steam and nymets1104's extremely helpfull tutorial videos on youtube have convinced me to start my own map! Here in this thread I plan to report about my map's concept and the overall progress. I don't expect my very first map to be a super-duper map, and obviously it won't be very complicated, but I do think that my map will end up to be unique in some respects.

That's because I'm a very big fan of realism. For now, I think that this will have the following consequences for my map:

  • The map will allow fire fights at longer ranges than the vanilla game. LOS on many vanilla maps is very, very short. And most maps are cluttered with cover and random stuff. I need to watch out though as increasing the drawdistance of foliage (grass) is very demanding.
  • The mode will be territory with 1 or at most 2 objectives (only one objective will be active any time)
  • Tickets will be very low. Number of tickets = ca. 2x amount of players - two lives per player. So really you need to approach the objectives without casualties. It's more of a mixture of skirmish and territory, really.
  • No hurry (ample time limit)
  • I pay special attention to terrain. E.g. a road needs a roadside ditch, a wood/jungle has very distinct zones (thick bushes where sunlight hits the ground=outer edge, few undergrowth in the inner sector where the treetops' foliage blocks the sun), most importantly, I'm also struggling to reduce players' movement speed a lot if they're moving through thick undergrowth, mud or on steep slopes. Going somewhere should take some time and you need to choose where to commit.
  • I'd prefer to leave any support assets out of the game (no arty, no recon, etc.)
  • No snipers, no RPGs.
  • I'm probably going to add lots of little bumps in the ground. Going prone should therefore be more usefull/secure than in vanilla RS2. Also, grenades should be a bit less deadly if you're prone (because the shrapnel hits the bumps... at least I hope so. Not sure how the game handles grenade explosions). At the same time, I try to avoid obvious "islands of cover" that many vanilla maps feature.
  • Longer respawn timers than on vanilla maps.
  • Longer lines of fire (less LOS-blocking objects and terrain) should really reward teamwork. With longer lines of fire, there is no chance you gonna make that lucky sprint from cover A to B if your enemy misses a single shot. Your enemy will get not only one but multiple shots at you while you're crossing. Suppression (delivered by your teammates) should be mandatory.

The basic combat scenario can't really be very realistic though. The idea is that the leading vehicle of a marines convoy got ambushed by the VC on a road. The platoon follows up, dismounts and tries to drive the attacking VC back, search/destroy their base. The US platoon (32 players - perhaps too many for the map size...) starts on one side of the road, the VC in a little patch of jungle on the other side of the road. The marines first need to cross the street, make it across the guardrail, across the muddy road ditch through the dense outer jungle into the deep jungle (first objective). VC is supposed to draw back across a little stream. The crossing will be controlled by a VC-MG position on a hill (ca. 200-300 meters from the crossing) which is also able to spray (blindly) into the jungle. The other side of the crossing is a relatively open (bushy) gentle slope where the VC have a small slit trench to defend their hut/base (final objective).

Now obviously, the marines need some boost to overcome the VC's advantages. Their grenadier should be quite an important asset. Maybe a single arty strike and shorter spawn timers could help the US too. I also plan to make the US ammo crate easier accessible than that for the VC. I hope that - due to longer range fire fights and very limited respawning - ammo will play a role. The US will have their crate at the road (their trucks) while the VC will have theirs at their MG position (which is only connected to the rest of the map by a relatively exposed track). Ammo carriers (players running back to fetch ammo to distribute amongst their reammates) would make a lot of sense on the map.

I hope that the map provides for interesting fire fights. E.g. the MG overlooking the crossing should be relatively hard to take out because of the distance (in combination with the lack of snipers) and its well chosen field of fire (no easy/covered approach). Ideally, the marines should manage to suppress it. A nice tactic to deliver suppression on the VC mg would be an US mg firing from cover and concealment of the jungle, with his fire being directed by a spotter (who stays hidden with a LOS on the VC mg position).

The big question still concerns the tactical appeal and replayability of the map though. Obviously, after playing the map once, every marine knows about the slit trenches and the MG position. Obviously, this is very important information. I'm not quite sure where the replayability will be other than in teamwork and execution (positioning, directing fires/suppression). The vanilla-game depends a lot on commander-abilities. I don't want that. Splitting up the team is not really a tactical factor given how small maps are in RS2 (compared to the effective range of weapons).

Do you have any comments, any ideas, any feedback? :)

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Here is a first screeny of a section of the road and the road ditch where the US marines will be starting.(not ingame lighting/shadow)

https://ibb.co/kEqpBR



Last edited by Wenzel; 25 Oct, 2017 @ 2:29am
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Showing 1-15 of 17 comments
Wenzel 25 Oct, 2017 @ 2:24am 
Heightmap-screenshot: View of the Vietcong's mg-hill (left) from the approximate rivulet-crossing site. The distance is ca. 250 meters - good mg-range. At this distance, cover and heavier weapons start making sense - it should be quite difficult to hit the mg-gunner's head from here. Even a grenadier would need to approach perhaps 100 meters before he can target the mg-nest. Note that it takes my avatar ca. 1 minute to run from here to the top of the hill (in the final map, this will be impossible due to the slope and the vegetation). I guess it would be usefull for the VC to use a team for the mg - ideally a commander with binos to adjust the fire and to fetch ammo. But thanks to tracer rounds, a single gunner should also be able to lay accurate fire on the crossing.

The slit-trench and the objective will be located on the smaller slope on the right. I plan to connect the slit trench and the mg-nest with a relatively exposed track. This could be an interesting tactical factor because ammo for the VC will only be available at one of those two positions.

https://ibb.co/c6NT5m


heightmap overview (wip)

https://ibb.co/kYefJ6
Last edited by Wenzel; 25 Oct, 2017 @ 4:32am
Wenzel 25 Oct, 2017 @ 11:47am 
A small test firing from the VietCong's mg-hill, targeting the location where the marines will be advancing through the jungle. Tracers are actually usefull here! :)

As you can see, I'm still working on the heightmap before committing to static meshes and volumes/water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=815RlEJvFkc&feature=youtu.be

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This video shows the camera jittering problem. I want to slow down players who move through dense foliage or on steep slopes. I created a physics volume and increased ground friction. Now players do get slowed down, but the camera jittering is awefull. :(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNyFR1ntnQE&feature=youtu.be

I like that fighting aginst the sun will cause real troubles for the marines.

EDIT: Lol I just watched the youtube video and here there is no camera-jittering at all when the player enters the undergrowth. That's interesting .... it's present when playing the game, but the recorded video doesn't show it.

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I've dropped some grenades close to me to see whether small bumps in the ground do make a difference. And I was pleasantly surprised that they do. So, by adding more little bumps in the ground which stop shrapnel, grenades will be less deadly for prone soldiers.
Last edited by Wenzel; 26 Oct, 2017 @ 8:58am
Wenzel 26 Oct, 2017 @ 1:31pm 
I've been working on the jungle this evening. I suppose I need to reduce the amount of jungle on my map due to time limits and performance. Building what I consider to be a realistic jungle takes ages and needs sooo many objects.

https://ibb.co/dZqLLm

Note that some water puddles are still missing.On the left the jungle ends, thus the trees' height slowly falls off, trunks are getting thinner but more numbersome. To the right we'll be going deeper into the jungle, with very high, thick but fewer trees. There is a lot of undergrowth of ferns and moss (unforunately, moss only exists as material, not as static meshes) - they don't need a lot of light to grow.

I want a path to lead from the road through the jungle to the river crossing. Using this path will have the advantage that it does not slow down movement like the rest of the jungle. But of course the path will be a priority tactical target (punji traps hello!).

Work in progress jungle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5tKjj-rIf0&feature=youtu.be
Last edited by Wenzel; 26 Oct, 2017 @ 4:54pm
Wenzel 27 Oct, 2017 @ 7:11am 
A little tour around my map (rendered in a slightly better quality this time):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0ki3XbkXGc&feature=youtu.be

Almost all trees for the jungle have been placed. The work on the ground (undulations, rocks, roots, plants/undergrowth) is still to come.

The rest of this side of the river has been filled with elephant grass. Not sure yet whether I like it, plus there is a problem: Even at the maximum drawdistance, the grass disappears for Vietcong soldiers who are on the very far extreme on their side of the map. This is a real game-breaker. I will see how I can solve this. I guess I'll have to make due with terrain which is not supposed to provide concealment (and reduce the height of the elephant grass so that no player thinks it provides concealment...).

I can still use elephant grass (perhaps not that tall) on the other side of the river. Here the drawdistance doesn't matter that much because the US doesn't get a very long LOS on the hills anyway (due to the jungle).
Last edited by Wenzel; 27 Oct, 2017 @ 8:05am
Wenzel 27 Oct, 2017 @ 6:27pm 
The terrain textures ("materials") gave me lots of headaches today. At one point I have been working on two terrains at the same time without me noticing it, with one heightmap cutting through the other (lol). Then I deleted all layers, which gave me a material index error. But finally, I'm back on the track and I've learned a lot - I'm confident that there is no major technical obstacle in my way now! Just relaxing work, painting beautiful landscapes (and a small mg-position).

Here are two views of the jungle-patch with some bushy area in front of it. As I've stated before, the draw distance of the grass is not ideal even if maxed out, but on the other hand even if a very far away enemy might see people who should be concealed in the grass, he still can't hit them at this long distance. Moreover, the bushes still provide concealment - even at far distances. So I think it will be fine.

https://i.imgur.com/trtVWuT.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ifQ5vTK.jpg

Also, I've successfully added spawn cameras and ammo crates.
Last edited by Wenzel; 27 Oct, 2017 @ 6:36pm
Wenzel 29 Oct, 2017 @ 10:28am 
Okay, so I've run into a technical problem which i suppose forces me to start from scratch as far as placing static meshes (especially the trees) is concerned. I'm glad I can keep my height-map. On the one hand, I've lost about 2 days of work. On the other hand, I've learned quite a lot since I have started placing the static meshes.

Before I re-start placing the meshes, I might make some adjustments to the layout of the map and also consider carefully the performance-stats of the meshes I use. I'm totally new to mapmaking in a 3d engine, so I don't really know what to watch out for. I'd be very glad for tips.

Complexity of the static meshes (tris, vertices) and LODs
So obviously, the fewer tris and vertices a mesh has, the better it is in terms of performance. Here, some models offer a beter mix of complexity and looks than others. So I try to stick to the well balanced meshes more than I used to. Also, I try getting rid of the practice of reducing the scale of big trees to simulate smaller bushy trees, and of placing trees "under" the map to make their branches simulate bushes. I think the trunks are still there and draw ressources.
Also, I might play around with the Levels of Detail (LODs). As the LOD-settings are set per static-mesh-object, and not per static mesh actor on the map, I suppose I have to copy the models to my map's pack and edit them there. I did a few experiments with some objects, changing their LODDistanceRatio and LODMaxRange and it led to some ugly blurring/popping of forms and textures very quickly. But I still think I can perhaps slightly decrease LOD transition ranges for objects that I place in short-LOS territory like the jungle. Especially considering that the movement speed of the players will be reduced as well, the popping issue should be less extreme.
I think it would be cool if there were seperate nodels for trunks and for foliage (the latter drastically reduced in complexity). I think it's a bit unfortunate to have so many detailed leafs rendered so high up in the air.

Collision models
Obviously some trees and bushes have collision boxes around them (stopping both movement and bullets, I suppose) while others don't. I'm not sure if the presence of a lot of collision boxes this has a large effect on performance, but I guess so. I noticed quite some lag when I fired into an area of lots of small collision boxes. So I might turn some of them off and/or use more smaller branches/bushes than bullet-stopping larger trunks.

Lightning
Not sure how much influence this has on performance. I could try to add some tree models that don't throw any shadow for the interior jungle parts where there is no light anyway. Not sure if I can increase performance in any other way here?


PS: CULL DISTANCE VOLUMES

PS: Usefull: https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Engine/Performance/Guidelines/index.html
Last edited by Wenzel; 9 Nov, 2017 @ 12:11pm
Wenzel 30 Oct, 2017 @ 4:03pm 
I've experimented a bit to create a proper firing position/trench-design for the MG. It turned out to be a bit trickier than I had thought, but I'm quite happy with the result. I decided not to use premade trenches but instead terra-form my own.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1a0ruRTYVg&feature=youtu.be
https://i.imgur.com/xzSwHDc.jpg

The main problem I encountered was that one needs very sharp slopes (90°) because the players need to be able to step as close to the edge of the trench - and the loophole respectively - as possible. Every little inch of distance between the player and the loophole drastically decreases the angle of the field of fire. Unfortunately, you can't create very sharp (90°) slopes for trenches by terraforming the height-map (whose verticaes are lined up on a grid). So I decided to use the BSP-brush and create a box, which has a 90° angle. I've also turned off the colision boxes of the wooden supporting logs to make sure they don't get between the player and the loophole. I had to keep the collision-boxes for the sandbags though because when I turned them off, the player always tried to set up his MG on the BSP-box. The end-result is a fire position that provides an okay field of fire (the trench needs to be placed somewhere else, so that there is less dead ground) and forces your enemies to hit a small window of perhaps 30x30cm. I don't know yet how resiliant the position is against suppression fire. At the ranges at which the mg will be firing (350-500 meters), suppression can reduce it's effectiveness drasticall, while at the same time, it should be quite hard to hit the loophole (the map has no slots for snipers).

The overall position of the trench in the video is not final. There is lots of dead ground in front of it right now and the mg can only reach the far bank with plunging fire. I could turn it into a really mean position by adjusting the slope all the way down to the river so that the MG can deliver grazing fire (with only very few dead spots).

Also, you wouldn't want that cliff directly behind you (anything hitting there will rain shrapnel on you from above/behind). Moreover, the trench here is still lacking exits, some logs laid out on the floor, the supporting logs on the backside and some kind of roof (camo-net vs. aerial recon [recon will not be allowed on the map anyways], something that creates shadows so that enemies can't see if the position is occupied or not). I've just tried to nail down the tricky game-play part, not the aesthetical aspect. (I'll also get rid of the gap between my BSP-box and the heightmap-terrain).

I also need to point out that the trench is broader than I'd like it to be. But I can't make it any slimmer (unless I increase the tesselation of the terrain) because players would have difficulties to move in it. On the other hand, the map will not allow arty, so that is not too much of a problem (still grenades can hit the trench more easily though).

The other VC-position on the other hill will not be that delicate. I only plan some quickly shoveled foxholes, not a sophisticated trench with sandbag-cover.
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I've also restarted the jungle, carefull to use unlit models that will not cast shadows wherever it is reasonable to save resources.
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PS: Interesting instruction-video on the use of heavy MGs in the attack, 1937 and 1944: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnWuT_ArzeE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_HYmcm9A2o

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PS2: Screenshots of an updated trench

https://i.imgur.com/hnLDYoJ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3gwl1Bk.jpg
Last edited by Wenzel; 31 Oct, 2017 @ 1:44am
Wenzel 31 Oct, 2017 @ 7:47am 
Here is my almost fully functional mg-position. Had to place another BSP-shape as the roof (using only a mesh resulted in grenades falling into the bunker...). There are two firing positions from which you can deliver frontal fire (not as good as oblique fire) on the river-crossing and the jungle. Also, there is an ammo box. I'm not sure about the little holes to the side. On the one hand it is nice to see if there's someone out there, on the other hand the openings are dangerous if the US grenadier decides to target the flanks of the bunker with grenades. Shrapnel might enter the bunker here.

The only thing still missing is an option to leave the bunker (except for the tunnel...) and more concealment (some stuff on the roof, primarily).

I'd really like to see and test how much suppression you can get on the bunker (with one, two ordinary riflemen, with the grenadier...)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dG9LtyxQ48&feature=youtu.be
Last edited by Wenzel; 31 Oct, 2017 @ 7:54am
Tyler 6 2 Nov, 2017 @ 2:06am 
Interested to see how it will turn out.
Wenzel 2 Nov, 2017 @ 10:30am 
Hey Tyler! Finally someone found his way into my little cave! :) I'm interested to see how it will turn out as well, lol. Like I've said it's an experiment. I just hope I'll be able to gather enough people to give it a real test once it is finished.

Right now I'm working on the VietCong positions.

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For anyone interested in bunker-realism/positioning, I can recommend one of the videos of one of my favourite youtubers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5PnGgUvJiQ

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Another interesting read I've discovered today: observations on infantry operations in the Korean War:

http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p4013coll11/id/1350

Last edited by Wenzel; 2 Nov, 2017 @ 11:30am
Skay 2 Nov, 2017 @ 10:45am 
looks promising!, I'll be aware and if necessary I could give a hand testing it
:AceofSpades:
Wenzel 4 Nov, 2017 @ 7:54am 
Hey Skay! Thanks for your interest! I will come back to you when I've got something to show. :)

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I'm working on my grassy hill, placing bushes and grass-groups, and working on a trail that curves up the hill.
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I also toy with the idea of implemeting a first objective called "rally and organize" that has a miniimum cap-time of 3 minutes or so and will be placed almost immediately at the spawn-zone of the attackers. The idea behind this is that players should get a little bit of time (3 minutes?) to prepare and organize. The problem is that even when working with map-boundaries (triggered by capturing objectives) it doesn't prevent players from avancing? Perhaps I can create blocking volumes that disappear once the first objective is taken? I will see what's possible. I just don't like that there is no preparation time at all. Players should at least have enough time to find their proper squad and to distribute themselves over the front.

This first objective could also be handy as I want to give the defenders two spawn-options in the beginning, but only 1 once the game has started.
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Here is a list of some of the points I keep in mind for creating a realism-oriented map:
  • Avoid any kind of fortifications (sandbags, dugouts, bunkers) that lack proper fields of fire. Take a look at historical photos of US bases in Vietnam and you'll see that they all have a zone of cleared terrain around them. Resricted fields of fire are okay if the fortifications guards an important tactical feature (a road/trail, bridge, crossing).
  • Avoid wide trenches. A trench that is wide is useless. Trenches are supposed to protect you from shrapnel. The wider a trench is, the more likely a shell will land in the trench. You want the shell to miss the trench, strike on a higher level above you, so that there is no direct line from the explosion to any part of your body.
  • Woods are not just a bunch of trees placed on grass. They usually have several structured zones, with shorter, denser vegetation on the outside and higher, thicker trees inside. Wherever the canopy is very thick, only very few sunrays can penetrate to the ground, thus there is less undergrowth (except for ferns). You can get some impressions from youtube videos, e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJHns6tYrss Actual jungle patrol footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89_3DgW_7mg The vegetation in Veitnam has a huge variety though.
  • Don't divide the map into many small areas. Go to google maps, hop over to Vietnam and use the tool to measure some distances in the real world. You'll see that most features, for example clearings, are relatively large, regularly at least 150 meters wide/long. Most FPS maps, the vanilla RS2:V maps included, are too cramped and cluttered with artificial cover. It might feel better from a pure gameplay/balancing-perspective, but in terms of realism, it's wrong.

    PS: Military maps on Vietnam are very handy here: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/topo/vietnam/

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Last edited by Wenzel; 11 Nov, 2017 @ 12:31am
Wenzel 5 Nov, 2017 @ 10:33pm 
I've been thinking a bit about balancing. Apart from the uneven amount of tickets (ca. 2x player for VC-defenders, ca. 4 x player for US-attackers?), which gives the attackers more tries while the success-chance of each try stays the same, and the advantage in weapons (US will get their grenade launchers) I was also considering three more things to compensate the superior position* held by the defenders (VC):

  • Ammunition: Afaik, the US trooper already comes with more (7!) magazines than his opponent. Now, assuming that suppression will indeed play a larger role if the distance is increased, ammo-consumption will become an important issue - suiciding in order to replentish ammo should lose you the game really fast (very small amount of tickets). Not only do the attackers carry more ammo with them, but also, ammo-crates can be placed accordingly on the map, that is benefitial for the attackers, more difficult to reach for the defenders (e.g. only in the bunker, which is offside the main VC-position). So either the defenders have to pick their shots or they need to resupply, which means leaving the security of their foxholes (a dedicated ammo runner is an interesting option) and braving an exposed foot-trail that leads up ca. 400 meters to the bunker/ammo crate. But really it's hard to anticipate how engagements will play out on this map...
  • Spawn-points: In addition to uneven reinforcements, the location of respawn-points can be benefitial for the attackers. E.g. the defenders' respawn-point can be set up in a way so that it is difficult/risky (i.e. exposed to the attackers' fire) to run over to the objective and it's safer to stay put and try to operate at the distance, trying to help their buddies on the objective. I'm not a fan of the constant "feed" of the objective areas by respawning. If you die, you can re-join, but on a weaker tactical position.
  • Artillery: I need to test whether players can actually and realistically survive arty-strikes in foxholes (deep ones, spiderholes). If so, the attackers could be allowed a few arty strikes.

* It's woth noting though that concealment of fortified positions is impossible in a game. After playing a map for the first time, you know where everything is.

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PS: Doesn't look as if you can survive arty, which for the americans fires airburst ammo. So that's out of the game. This is just too easy: you know where the VC positions are - just drop arty on them, game won.
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Last edited by Wenzel; 11 Nov, 2017 @ 12:31am
Wenzel 11 Nov, 2017 @ 12:30am 
The project is not dead, but I'm starting anew on a more modest scale. As I looked at the FPS, I noticed that the very long drawdistances and open spaces that I had on the map (somewhere around 500m² of open space!) really strained performance more than anything else. Also, I figured it would take me ages to finish a map on this scale, and I didn't want to risk so much work with the outlook of poor performance/unplayability.

My new map will be smaller. I will keep the distance high (ca. 250 meters) but scale down the width of the battlefield. The scenario: A patrol of US. forces has dug in for the night in the vicinity of some montagnard-huts. As it is but a temporary position, the troopers have only dug some foxholes, no sophisticated trenches or bunkers, maybe they have also cleared some important firing lanes. The northern forces, "streaming" out of the jungle, attack this night-camp through the dense brushwood/grass that separates a trail from the huts. (maybe it would be interesting to have a night or dawn scenario)

It will still be an asymmetrical scenario:
  • US has better positions (hastily dug foxholes) and better weapons (grenade-launcher), VC gets more tickets,
  • VC spawn in jungle, US. reinforcements (respawns) might be arriving via the trail
  • US doesn't get an ammo crate, VC might have one in the jungle (not sure yet)
  • For realism (you have no protection from arty if dug-in) and gameplay reasons, neither side has access to arty (official explanation: the mountains interdict it). There will be no radios on either side.

Note to self: 1 unreal unit = 2 cm
Last edited by Wenzel; 11 Nov, 2017 @ 1:34am
North_Dumpling 8 11 Nov, 2017 @ 11:58am 
Sounds like a scenario of my Brecourt map...oh wait
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