Darkest Dungeon®

Darkest Dungeon®

Paladin 2.0
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Copain 27 Jun, 2018 @ 5:23pm
Feedback
So I messed around with it for a bit; and here's my thoughts on some of him, like you asked.



The idea of him being a bit weaker at the start but then using his primary attack (or judgement) to buff himself so Divine Storm / Holy Light are stronger is pretty neat, and I like the core idea of it. The problem is that the spells even without the buff are already really good. I don't feel any real downside for just using divine storm on its own, and Holy Light is already a strong heal (though the heal with buff keeping the flow going easier is neat).


I'd honestly suggest nerfing Divine storm a little, but making the buff stronger and adding some kind of secondary effect if you can; like Torch gain or stress heal. Going too far would be bad; I don't think this class should become the ridiculousness that is Twilight Knight where you just eliminate stress from the game, but the Paldin having no Stress healing or Torch gain makes it hard to Utalize when I could just pop in the Crusader who deals more damage and has a heal/stress reducer/ Torch gain all in one skill.


Speaking of damage, I'd honestly just remove the Crit off his basic attack and give him something else. I get the idea is he hits for less than the crusader but has a higher crit chance, but instead of the crit you might give it some support element or strengthen the buff it gives to his other skills.


Also, his first three skills feel like they just outshine anything else. Your basic attack, holy light, and Divine storm are pretty much mandatory thanks to their raw power and the interaction they have, but none of the other skills feel that useful; I don't think I've ever wasted a turn with them aside from Judgement when I ran a high stun comp; in which it was useful (but required that specific setup). I'd honestly change them entirely, though I can't tell you how off the top of my head. Maybe give him the Paladin's blessing skills since you said he's based off that? Greater blessings that last the fight (or atleast a good few turns) might be worth a turn, But unless they interact with the same buff holy light / Divine storm interact with, there's still likely to be trouble in using it.



...



Now that I think about it, why not just make the buff from Basic attack / Judgement into an actual buff? You could call it light touched or something and (if possible) give it a visual indicator, like a smaller/opaque version of the wings you use for his art or some soft holy aura... but even if you don't give it a visual, it could interact with all his skills much easier.


IE: name the buff "Light touched" (or something), and just have all his skills say "If Light touched, X" instead of giving him the buff that specifically says it interacts with Holy light and Divine storm. If you don't want to overhaul the skills like I mentioned earlier, this could atleast allow them to be more useful by saying "If Light touched, also do X" At the very least I'd have it make all abilities give Torch power or something, given the "for the light" theme of the class.This kind of hurts Dark runs, but it's a pretty niche thing since Districts make dark runs not a thing late game and early game they aren't used often.



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EDIT: I realized this was mostly just feedback about the things I'd change about him to make it more interesting or useful; but I'd also like to toss in the class is pretty interesting. I'm glad to see I was wrong about him being OP, and infact I'd say he's decently balanced. The art edits on Crusader have it look different enough that it works out, and overall he's pretty well made. My complaints kind of boil down to I think you had a solid 3-4 skills that you really made good, but kind of forgot to make the others or the camp skills as interesting. I know there's a limit most modders want to work on a mod before just going to something new, so I can't say I expect you to do everything I said, but you asked for Feedback, so I figured I'd try.
Last edited by Copain; 27 Jun, 2018 @ 5:26pm
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Showing 1-13 of 13 comments
Caedwyn  [developer] 28 Jun, 2018 @ 12:10am 
Thanks for the feedback!

The first three abilities are good, for sure. Your suggestions about Divine Storm and Holy Light are something I've thought about for a while, and will likely implement them shortly.

I think you're underrating the other skills, though.

Spammable block which can double as a reflection tanking mechanic?

Stun which slows someone?

Judgment can be used for a ranged build with Seal of Insight, or normally used as a shuffle mechanic?

Hand of Freedom is a free action, 1 time per turn, 3 times per fight. It cleanses stuns, which has been insanely useful for me, as well as granting speed and move/stun immunity.

I think the remaining abilities are more than fine.

The camping abilities are pretty unique as well. I'm very happy with them. They have insane synergy with the class trinkets, and most of them are not found on any other class, modded vanilla.



Caedwyn  [developer] 28 Jun, 2018 @ 2:36am 
Updates already made.
Copain 28 Jun, 2018 @ 12:44pm 
I'll check the changes a bit down the road, work long shifts the next three days
Copain 28 Jun, 2018 @ 1:34pm 
To reply to what you said though, unless hand of freedom doesn't consume his turn, you're just trading turns, which is... eh? Because he's decently high damage, wants to keep attacking for divine storm, or use Holy light. It's why I suggested just making the basic buff given buff all skills with "light touched."

Judgement I use because it moves me and can hit the back line, yeah.

Maybe I misread the block, I didn't see it having Riposte on it before, and it didn't look worth sacrificing my main three or the ranged attack for, but I'll look when I can play.

My real issue with the stun was honestly that it was one target. It'd be fine in some situations, but most of the time I want to stun multiple targets if I'm not just going to kill them (ala Plague doctor or Hellion). If it's a raw stun on one target, I want it to do other things as well (Ala Vestal); which again is where you could have the "light touched" buff I mentioned come in handy, making it do more if he's got the buff from basic attack.
Caedwyn  [developer] 28 Jun, 2018 @ 1:46pm 
Originally posted by Copain:
To reply to what you said though, unless hand of freedom doesn't consume his turn, you're just trading turns, which is... eh? Because he's decently high damage, wants to keep attacking for divine storm, or use Holy light. It's why I suggested just making the basic buff given buff all skills with "light touched."

... ?

It doesn't consume his turn. It cleanses stuns. It makes people immune to move/stun for a few turns. It buffs speed. It's quite good.



Originally posted by Copain:

Maybe I misread the block, I didn't see it having Riposte on it before, and it didn't look worth sacrificing my main three or the ranged attack for, but I'll look when I can play.

Reflection is a new mechanic with CoM. Whatever damage the enemy does to you, they receive X% of it back.



Originally posted by Copain:

My real issue with the stun was honestly that it was one target. It'd be fine in some situations, but most of the time I want to stun multiple targets if I'm not just going to kill them (ala Plague doctor or Hellion). If it's a raw stun on one target, I want it to do other things as well (Ala Vestal); which again is where you could have the "light touched" buff I mentioned come in handy, making it do more if he's got the buff from basic attack.

It's balanced. With a trinket, this ability amplifies damage taken by the enemy. It's fine.

Most classes have a few strong abilities people like to take, and pick others for situational assistance depending on the match-up, their own composition, etc. That's fine with me.
Copain 29 Jun, 2018 @ 5:31am 
Originally posted by Caedwyn:
Originally posted by Copain:
To reply to what you said though, unless hand of freedom doesn't consume his turn, you're just trading turns, which is... eh? Because he's decently high damage, wants to keep attacking for divine storm, or use Holy light. It's why I suggested just making the basic buff given buff all skills with "light touched."

... ?

It doesn't consume his turn. It cleanses stuns. It makes people immune to move/stun for a few turns. It buffs speed. It's quite good.

As in he spends his turn to use it. So you lose a turn. Think of it like WoW, something being on the GCD versus off of it. If it's off of it, you can use it and then attack, if it's not, you choose between attacking or using it. In this situation, it's on the GCD, I'm giving up my Paladin's turn to use it (Which means I Could lose built divine storm/healing stacks or not get them when I could have).


Originally posted by Caedwyn:
Originally posted by Copain:

Maybe I misread the block, I didn't see it having Riposte on it before, and it didn't look worth sacrificing my main three or the ranged attack for, but I'll look when I can play.

Reflection is a new mechanic with CoM. Whatever damage the enemy does to you, they receive X% of it back.
Ah, thanks!


Originally posted by Caedwyn:
Originally posted by Copain:
My real issue with the stun was honestly that it was one target. It'd be fine in some situations, but most of the time I want to stun multiple targets if I'm not just going to kill them (ala Plague doctor or Hellion). If it's a raw stun on one target, I want it to do other things as well (Ala Vestal); which again is where you could have the "light touched" buff I mentioned come in handy, making it do more if he's got the buff from basic attack.

It's balanced. With a trinket, this ability amplifies damage taken by the enemy. It's fine.

Most classes have a few strong abilities people like to take, and pick others for situational assistance depending on the match-up, their own composition, etc. That's fine with me.

Like I said, it's up to you in the end. Your mod, your choice; I just like utility that I have to work around (IE Hellion doing strong things but then losing damage). It's why I like your idea of the buff for healing/divine storm, it feels fun and interesting; It's just to me personally I'd spread it out more so more skills are amped, but you and I might just value things differently.


I personally see speed as almost useless, since most fights based around speed will have mechanics that make speed not matter (The Brigand Pounder fight, for example; even with 0 speed I still have my heroes go before the one who fires the cannons, every time). I get it helps here or there, but I often like going second, healing the damage and buffing, and then killing. BUT I also know that's just me, and I can't say that everyone should play how I play.
Caedwyn  [developer] 29 Jun, 2018 @ 9:41am 
Are you saying you want the Hand of Freedom to consume the turn?

I tried that before. It just wasn't valuable in that form.
Copain 30 Jun, 2018 @ 5:10am 
Originally posted by Caedwyn:
Are you saying you want the Hand of Freedom to consume the turn?

I tried that before. It just wasn't valuable in that form.


I have one more 13 hour shift of work tomorrow. After that, I'll check it out. If you're saying you can cast Hand of Freedom and then cast another spell (getting two actions In one turn on Paladin), I'll admit that makes it more useful. I just didn't know you could do that in Darkest Dungeon.
Last edited by Copain; 30 Jun, 2018 @ 5:10am
Caedwyn  [developer] 30 Jun, 2018 @ 5:20pm 
Originally posted by Copain:
Originally posted by Caedwyn:
Are you saying you want the Hand of Freedom to consume the turn?

I tried that before. It just wasn't valuable in that form.


I have one more 13 hour shift of work tomorrow. After that, I'll check it out. If you're saying you can cast Hand of Freedom and then cast another spell (getting two actions In one turn on Paladin), I'll
admit that makes it more useful. I just didn't know you could do that in Darkest Dungeon.

Yes, that's the case.

It sounds like you haven't played the mod much. Give it some time and experimentation, and I think you'll see more utility.
Copain 3 Jul, 2018 @ 2:01am 
So, I've now put about 25 hours in with the mod and used a lot of Paladin. Most of my thoughts honestly remain the same. I'm still not really using hand of freedom at all, though I think it not taking a turn is neat (Consider mentioning that on the skill, if possible? Wouldn't have known it without you telling me).

Sacred Shield feels not worth a slot either (It takes a turn unless you recently changed it, but even if it didn't, I don't see any use from it). I find myself using Crusader Strike/holy Light/Divine Storm no matter what, and then mostly hammer of justice (sometimes judgement, but rare honestly).



I've started getting more trinkets, Seal of Command is kind of absurdly good, I really think it needs to have atleast a slight drawback. 170% stun chance with a level 4 stun let me chain stun the Second Siren fight over and over. On the other hand, fairly hard to make use of that stun damage (unless it applies on hit? I don't really notice since stun deals so little most of the time) since the target has lower speed and ends up going after the Paladin and then being buffed to resist stun (...which only Paladin's current ridiculously high stun chance can really get through as far as I know). I think the idea of it stunning more is good, but you might make it have a different secondary effect (since it currently doesn't mix great with the speed lower stuff IMO) and/or have a drawback.


On the flip side, I can't really see myself using Seal of Insight. The idea seems to be to make him a more support character with it; but given it's half the healing of Vestal's heal before a few turns of buffing with non healing skills (and then having a short window to do it before they fall off), as well as him having less general flexibility as a support role, I find trouble convincing myself to use it. I think the general Idea you want is to make it so he can stun and then heal, but in medium/long dungeons of harder difficulty, I don't see myself going without healing often on my dedicated healer (unless the occultist got a big heal last round with no bleed, but...).


If you want him to be able to use trinkets to go into a support build, I'd really suggest making Holy light have some sort of other thing it provides. Neither of the other two characters have a heal that restores light or reduces stress, which is why I keep suggesting that.


My only real issue with the Paladin is how much I just use him like a straight up Crusader. I know he's not supposed to feel too different and shares a base skeleton with him, but I end up playing them both the same way. Deal damage or stun, and give light support when you can do so safely; they don't really do anything too different from one another; sure the Paladin is a little different stat wise and ramps up a little better at the cost of being a little bit weaker at the start, but I'm still playing him the same.

...That said, I genuinely like using Paladin more because the animations are great. The little light streak on Crusader Strike is fantastic and the skill feels nice.



Also, how deep does the game let you go with seals? I was thinking to myself it'd be cool if seals worked like they did in WoW where attacks procced effects.



Also also, nerf Cleanse to cost 3 time, please. It's currently directly better than Snuf box, from Grave robber, which only does Disease (not blight), but also cost more at 3.
Copain 3 Jul, 2018 @ 9:19pm 
Just started looking at the Crystal gear; yeah, you can get on hit for the seals, pretty neat, good idea with Seal of Justice (Though If I'm honest, it looks pretty OP >_>;, might atleats give it the increased stress the other ones do )
Last edited by Copain; 3 Jul, 2018 @ 9:20pm
Caedwyn  [developer] 5 Jul, 2018 @ 1:14am 
He does -2 points of healing under the Vestal by default. That is nowhere close to "half" her healing. If you get Insight, you can can heal well consistently, especially after proccing crits with Judgment, which gives healing + damage buffs akin to Crusader Strike and Judgment normal attacks. Those buffs also stack. It's quite good.

The point of Seal of Insight isn't just to be a support character. It's also to be ranged damage. The trinket helps guarantee a ~50% crit rate (Depends on levels, Vengeance from camp, etc), and that procs healing buffs as mentioned above. Playing the Paladin like a Vestal is not optimal.

Cleanse nerf is fine. Makes sense.

Blocks are insanely good. I'm not changing Sacred Shield. It's balanced where it is. Making it not cost a turn would be brokenly OP. Compare to Shieldbreaker.

I can put a custom tooltip into Hand of Freedom. That's no worry.

If you're playing the Paladin and Crusader the same, that's on you. With the CoM trinkets, I don't even take attack skills. Hammer of Justice is my least picked skill on Paladin in general. I've heard different approaches from most of my subscribers.

If you prefer to play him as straight damage, I'd recommend checking out the new CC set. It's definitely intended for Divine Storm. I think it's definitely up your alley.

Caedwyn  [developer] 5 Jul, 2018 @ 1:15am 
I'm also going to lock this thread. Post in the Balance Feedback forum. More people are subscribed to that.
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