Torchlight II

Torchlight II

Nethermancer Class (v.5568)
Andras Zodon 23 May, 2013 @ 4:21pm
A few thoughts on Flesh Skills
I don't know if Haette has anything in the works for those last two skills in the Flesh tree, but I had a few ideas, as well as some thoughts on a couple of passives and the Jagged Bones skill.
For reference, I'm playing with SynergiesMOD and TL2 Essentials, on Veteran difficulty. At the moment, level 8. These are just my thoughts so far.


Atrophy
First of all, while I haven't tried the Atrophy passive, perhaps you should clarify the second line of its effects, "physical damage reduced by 3% for .5 seconds". Whose physical damage? Nearby monsters? Maybe it's just me, but it seems a little vague.

Devourer
Second, Devourer. I took this passive early on because I was having trouble with survivability. It was ineffective then, and I feel like it would still be ineffective now (12/2 health/mana stolen on hit @ lvl 8). I'm dual-wielding 1h axes/swords. I can tell this could be much more useful with more points into it, but generally the rule of thumb seems to be that if 1 skill point isn't worth it, then 5 skills points isn't going to be worth it either.
Edit1: It occurred to me that I didn't have Carapace when I first used this. I suppose that it might work as a way to regain your health when it is protected by the effects of Carapace...

Jagged Bones
Next, Jagged Bones. Just... Why? It's a plausible idea, but I don't understand why it is executed the way it is. It is the only Flesh ability, active or passive, that doesn't involve the manipulation of your body. I have a few suggestions on how I think it would be better. One being that it gives you damage reflection (whether it's more than the current amount of course depends on how it balances out), and that the tier bonuses are changed such that it gains the ability to provide exoskeletal harnesses to nearby allies, giving them the buff too. Further tier bonuses can become more powerful through the size of the radius within which allies are affected, and how many allies can be affected. Additionally, I'd like to throw in the idea that since it is now your body that is hurting the enemy, that if possible, perhaps this reflected damage should proc Devourer? I think that this would be very helpful for Devourer's viability, as well as increasing synergy between the different skills.

Alternatively, it could be swapped with Atrophy to be a passive, with a modified version of Atrophy becoming an active. Jagged Bones would passively provide damage reflection (again, this could proc Devourer), and the active version of Atrophy would work somewhat similarly to the current version of Jagged Bones. The current version of Jagged Bones is described as being a curse; that seems to me to go against the style of the tree. However, if Atrophy were an active, it could operate with similar controls to the current JB, but with similar effects to the current version of Atrophy. Perhaps boosted effects, but rather than passively affecting surround enemies, affects a targetted area with a stronger effect. Or, rather than a targetted area, the area around the player, similar to now, but as an active. My suggestion would be that the ability is made much more dramatic, with radial cracks in the ground emanating from the player, and energy converging on the player (similar to JB's current effect, but probably purple). The strength of the buff provided by Atrophy would be dependent on the number of enemies affected, and at higher levels, could slow enemies or reduce their attack speed.

"Deadly Division"
New skill suggestion; other name ideas include "Shocking Separation", "Flesh Wound", and "Dismembered Terror".

While my suggestion is for this skill to be an active ability, it could be modified to work as a passive if changes of that magnitude were implemented to existing skills. Deadly Division would sacrifice a percentage of your health (I'm thinking a maximum of 20% to start with, so that it can be used in conjunction with Carapace with only one skill point in each, however it could be arranged such that they won't work well together without investing more skill points, if that's better for balance) to slough off several chunks of your body which will become minions (HP directly dependent on how much you sacrificed? Might not be viable if 1:1 ratio) that have life steal to master on hit. Like other minions in the Nethermancer skills, I suppose they would have a constant HP-loss and no time limit. However, I'm proposing that they have a time limit, and if they are alive at the end of it, as opposed to dying of external causes, that you regain the health spent to create them. The idea being that you absorbed them back into your body. Obviously, each minion would count for a fraction of the total health spent, so you will receive the appropriate fraction of that health at the end of the timer, or all of it if they are all still alive. Or, you know, none.

As a passive, Deadly Division would have a chance on being hit to summon one of these creatures, with otherwise similar skill effects. I prefer "Flesh Wound" and "Dismembered Terror" for the skill name when I think of it as a passive.


Edit2: "Release the Beast"
Release the corruption within you, unleashing tentacles that wrap around nearby foes, choking them and drawing them in. Weakened foes lack the strength to resist and are likely to be consumed.

Tentacles wrap around x amount of foes within y range; both could be upgraded through tier bonuses. Foes being constricted could have attack speed lowered, stunned, or be interrupted, depending on how this was balanced, or could gain stronger effects as such through tier bonuses. Additionally, enemies with <= zz% health receive 100% (or otherwise largely increased) critical hits from this skill as they take their last breath. My suggested health is 10%, but again, balance and blah blah blah. The maximum health remaining before this effect occurs could also be increased through tier bonuses.

Edit3: "Focus Biomass" (Idea for Jagged Bones Replacement)
All that biomass you absorb through lifesteal takes time to be fully incorporated into your body. If you focus hard enough, you can shape this excess body mass into jagged spikes that will hurt your attackers!
  • Life steal performed during buff duration increases damage reflection (not sure how this would work mechanically in the coding, but maybe Haette can figure something out.)
  • Damage reflection degrades over time as biomass is slowly absorbed fully
  • Tier bonuses could include quicker reflection build rate/slower rate of decrease, as well as "becoming adept enough that you can aid your allies by shaping their excess biomass as well" or something like that, if it needed to be explained logically.
  • If damage reflection works with my proposed Devourer life steal, it is probably important that Devourer cannot provide a net gain in damage reflection, only a slower decrease rate. Perhaps the life steal from Devourer could be isolated and have a reduced effect on Focus Biomass, if any.

    . . .


    Alright, well, I've spent sort of a while writing this. I have a few more thoughts and ideas, but I'd like to go back to playing for now. Feedback is welcome everyone, so please, discuss your thoughts!

    EDIT1: Addendum to thoughts on Devourer.

    EDIT2: Added "Release the Beast" Skill suggestion. I'd also like to comment that I'm very impressed with the balance of this mod! The synergy between skills and the charge bar is amazing. I'm almost level 20 now, and the class still holds up in a very enjoyable and balanced way!

    EDIT3: Added "Focus Biomass", idea for a replacement for Jagged Bones that was inspired by Haette's feedback.
Last edited by Andras Zodon; 24 May, 2013 @ 8:17pm
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Showing 1-15 of 31 comments
Haette  [developer] 24 May, 2013 @ 6:52pm 
I'll look at this closer in a bit, but after skimming it I'll say that Atrophy debuffs enemies around you (IIRC it's described as stealing or sapping their strength and giving it to you), and that I'm not a fan of Jagged Bones either. It just doesn't work very well on a mechanical level.

Flavor-wise I still love it, and it IS a flesh skill to the core (the name is best taken literally, it makes the debuff particle scarier). It's probably going to be heavily reworked or just replaced in the future, though I haven't given much thought to replacements.

I will say that I'd prefer to avoid straight-up damage reflection if I can, but getting it to play with Devourer is an interesting prospect. Also, I hate HATE those basic clicky-buff skills like Elemental Boon and Shadowmantle, so it won't be one of those.
Andras Zodon 24 May, 2013 @ 8:02pm 
Hmmm, interesting thoughts on the basic clicky buffs as you call them, but I just thought of an interesting way to make it more complex, I'm going to add it to the original post.
phoenix 29 May, 2013 @ 11:39am 
Hum, when I read you both, I may have something like a this :

Instant absobtion (mana : 25, cd 30 sec) :
You create a shield that protec you from magic damage and effect for ONE seconde.
Each spell or magic damage prevent this way give you mana regeneration.

shield 1 sec
regen 5 mana by spell in 4 sec

Tiers 1 : cd->25
Tiers 2 : cd->20
Tiers 3 : duration -> 2 sec

Each lvl up the amount of mana regen by spell by 5.

So this is a REFLEX basic clicky-buff skills.
Uncle Jellyfish 29 May, 2013 @ 12:24pm 
That's an interesting skill idea, Phoenix, but between Carapace and Devourer, it seems like it wouldn't have much use. Though, being only one skill, it would definitely save skill points, and may be useful for kite-mage builds that only ever get hit every so often.
Haette  [developer] 29 May, 2013 @ 2:31pm 
Now see, that's the kind of short-lived buff I like. It's... "hard" is the best word I can think of. It's a guaranteed, extremely powerful effect that rewards thought and reflexes. Something like Elemental Boon is a really soft kind of buff, and I feel like those belong in a proc or a passive instead of chewing up mana.

That sort of thing usually shows up in PvP games, so I'm not -totally- sure how well it would work here, but it's worth a try.

Also, Carapace is due for a fairly hefty rework since I think I've found a fundamental flaw in its design. And Devourer, while it's not broken or anything, it's pretty high up on my list of skills to replace if I happen to come up with a more interesting alternative, or at least one that doesn't step on the Berserker's toes quite so much.

@Andras

Release the Beast is some kind of perfect for the 7th-tier flesh skill. I do also like the lifestealing minions.
Last edited by Haette; 29 May, 2013 @ 2:38pm
Uncle Jellyfish 29 May, 2013 @ 2:37pm 
I love Devourer, honestly. Since the Flesh tree relies so heavily on the Charge Bar being full to make use of the increased attack speed and reduced damage and slow effects received, Devourer gives the tree a way to get back the mana it lost from using the skills with increased mana costs (not to mention that Flesh builds don't have Focus, so lower mana pool).

I will attest to Carapace being a bit broken, though. It works a little TOO well with Festering Bulwark and the passive between Devourer and Carapace (can't remember the name, and my game keeps crashing at launch, so can't check). It'll be interesting to see what you replace it with, but it will also completely screw over my build. =/
Haette  [developer] 29 May, 2013 @ 2:39pm 
Yeah, Devourer just works, and it's probably not going anywhere soon. If it did, the life and mana steal would probably just get broken up and moved into other skills (like replacing Fusion of Flesh's regeneration with lifesteal) to make room for something new.
phoenix 30 May, 2013 @ 10:28am 
@Haette Yeah, this kind of spell is in pvp usually, the base idea is from Sivir in League of Legends but with some arrangement we can make a good spell for this game,

@jellyfish Yes this spell isn't worth it more than one point, it is too special.

May be something more like:

Instant absobtion (mana : 25, cd 30 sec) :
A shield protect you from damage and effect for one seconde :
You gain 5% of the magic dammage prevent this way in mana in 4 sec
You gain 30% of the physique dammage prevent this way in health in 4 sec

Tiers 1 : cd->25
Tiers 2 : cd->20
Tiers 3 : duration -> 2 sec

Each lvl up by 1% the mana regen and by 10% the health regen.

Seems more usefull.
Andras Zodon 30 May, 2013 @ 1:25pm 
As a writer, I'm a bit of a stickler for details. I don't see too much of a problem with the idea of what Phoenix is getting at, but I'm trying to draw a connection between its function and the Flesh tree's skill theme.

One idea I'm getting at is something like the Grand Regent's ability where when he melees, an spectral image of the Netherlord appears over him, mirroring his movement; the connection of course being that when you use this ability, you're using it defensively rather than offensively.

Dark Presence
Draw upon and emulate the power of a powerful Nether-demon to protect yourself, turning a portion of incoming damage into health or mana.

Another idea I had was a connection to muscular enhancement, involving a burst of quick reflexes, briefly giving you a 100% dodge rate instead of direct damage negation. I'm not really sure how to, thematically, work in any sort of health or mana generation into that. Perhaps something along the lines of:

Twitch Reflex (I really just don't have a good name for this representative of the nature of the class)
Assisted by your corruption, you brace your mutated body for evasive action, ready to twist and bend at the drop of a hat, then kill the clumsy oaf who dropped that hat before it hits the ground. A portion of your Charge bar is consumed with every incoming attack to give you a burst of blinding speed, which also refreshes your fatigued muscles (Small health regen).
  • Briefly gives you a 100% dodge rate: every attack you dodge consumes a portion of your Charge bar, and restores a small amount of health.
  • A well balanced cooldown/manacost could make timing crucial with this ability, or the other suggestions like it.

    However, whilst trying to figure out that Reflex thing, I had another idea! I know you want to make some hefty changes to Carapace and I don't know what you're thinking about doing for passives, but this idea was another passive.

    Whiplash
    When you dodge an attack, you counter with your tentacle appendage, striking the attacker for xxx% weapon DPS (or set amount that scales, or something).
    • Also increase evasion rating passively?
    • Devourer proc?
    • Generate Charge?
    • An additional idea for this is something like "Elastic Inertia:" As you dodge attacks, your to and fro motions build inertia, stretching out your arm. The increase in kinetic potential results in Whiplash doing more damage, and if you build up enough inertia, you will release all of the built up energy in a large, circular tentacle sweep.
Ryth 30 May, 2013 @ 3:34pm 
Just felt compelled to say that this class is extremly welldone and fun to play, but sadly it's a bit op. I'm level 6 and enemies can't even damage me. I tried it with Synergies mod and I could solo two Unique monsters with 2.5K hp and a few normal mobs plus an elite mob. They couldn't even do damage to me with the devourer skill [3 Skillpoints] plus the carapace skill [1 skillpoint].
So yeah, maybe needs some more balancing, but otherwise I love it. Keep it up! <3

Might be worth to add that I play on veteran. So I don't know how it fairs on higher difficulty.
Last edited by Ryth; 30 May, 2013 @ 3:37pm
Haette  [developer] 31 May, 2013 @ 4:49am 
I don't think Devourer is the problem, it might be a little much on top of a lifestealing weapon AND Fusion regen, but Carapace is all kinds of insane right now so I'll worry about it first. Was. Was insane. Because Carapace just got beaten with the whole nerf tree. Try it out now and see how it feels.
Last edited by Haette; 31 May, 2013 @ 4:50am
Ryth 1 Jun, 2013 @ 9:07am 
Thank you so much, it's way better now! Now I actually have to move around in fights and use my blink to get in and out of battle. Before I could just stand still and tank 60 mobs at a time while holding down the attack button. This makes the class much more dynamical. Great work.
Andras Zodon 1 Jun, 2013 @ 1:43pm 
What's the point of Regenerate Carapace if you still have to wait 4 seconds?

EDIT: Oh right, because it doesn't regenerate at all until it breaks. Okay, I see.
Last edited by Andras Zodon; 1 Jun, 2013 @ 1:45pm
Haette  [developer] 1 Jun, 2013 @ 2:00pm 
It's weird yeah, but it's about the only way I can make sure I'm replacing the shield properly. And I'm the kind of person who would break it on purpose before a big fight to get the regeneration, so just I added that skill as a shortcut :V
Last edited by Haette; 1 Jun, 2013 @ 2:01pm
Andras Zodon 1 Jun, 2013 @ 4:13pm 
Is there any way you could or would consider giving the Wall of Flesh tentacles most of your on hit effects as with Impale and Tentacle Lash? Since technically I believe the tentacles are supposed to be part of you. As far as life steal and such, maybe they would only have regular life steal, and not to master.
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