First of all, i'd like to endorse you sir for making such a terrific mod!

My major concern about the balance aspect of it is with the constant ability to make yourself invisible. The "Way of Umbra" allows you to do this every two turns, so if you use it at the end of first, delay your turn turn in second, then you always render the enemies helpless (not to mention about the resetting invisibility from "Retreat in to the shadows" :) ). It is trivializing the game horribly.

My simple sugestion is to remove the invisibility effect form the "Way of Umbra", resetting skills is a powerful mechanic already, especially with all those cool defensive things you implemented.

I'm looking forward to try the Umbra at full potential :D

EDIT: I've noticed that "Preemptive tactic" should cost 1 AP, but it costs none. It also doesn't grant invisibility (lets keep it that way xD)

Originally posted by xeranos:

First of all, i'd like to endorse you sir for making such a terrific mod!

My major concern about the balance aspect of it is with the constant ability to make yourself invisible. The "Way of Umbra" allows you to do this every two turns, so if you use it at the end of first, delay your turn turn in second, then you always render the enemies helpless (not to mention about the resetting invisibility from "Retreat in to the shadows" :) ). It is trivializing the game horribly.

My simple sugestion is to remove the invisibility effect form the "Way of Umbra", resetting skills is a powerful mechanic already, especially with all those cool defensive things you implemented.

I'm looking forward to try the Umbra at full potential :D

EDIT: I've noticed that "Preemptive tactic" should cost 1 AP, but it costs none. It also doesn't grant invisibility (lets keep it that way xD)

Hey there! Massive thanks for taking the time to voice your concerns, and I'm pleased you like the class for the most part :)

I was aware this could be an issue, hence why there is only 1 invis skill (Retreat Into Shadow) outside of Way of the Umbra, and was hoping people wouldn't abuse this. However, as it has been flagged as an issue (not just by yourself either!), I'm looking at introducing a balance patch to remove the Invis applied by Way of the Umbra and Retreat Into Shadow at the end of the turn it was cast.

This not only prevents the player from stealthing all the time / sitting in stealth for a whole turn, but it also allows for more stealth skills to be added into the class, provided they also expire at the end of the turn. My plan is to introduce more "if you are stealthed on cast this does XYZ" onto other skills (so the invis doesn't feel pointless), and introduce 1-turn stealth on other skills too, like Preemptive Strike.

Any thoughts on this? Thanks :)

Ok I've made the changes and it feels far more balanced already!

The patch should automatically download for you, so let me know what you think everyone!

I understand the need for balance, but perhaps it has gone too far?

I like the original poster's suggestion that invisibility be removed from Way of the Umbra and kept on a secondary skill (Retreat / Preemptive). This means you can't hide every turn but at least in the moments you need to breathe you have the normal invisible mechanic for a turn.

Of course, I may be biased when it comes to party balance as I enjoy doing solo character tactician runs. For this same reason I do appreciate that it isn't too easy, since the only reason I play solo tactician is because it typically requires more planning.

I like the idea of giving invisibility more utility and strategy, but currently it seems like only a buff to next attack (having most skills benefit removes decision making in my mind) and a way to evade attacks of opportunity (which can be accomplished via talents). This, in my opinion, is less strategic than a single turn hide when you know an enemy skill is coming off cooldown and you need a bit more time to recoup.

Originally posted by Gay-Train to Buttsville:

I understand the need for balance, but perhaps it has gone too far?

I like the original poster's suggestion that invisibility be removed from Way of the Umbra and kept on a secondary skill (Retreat / Preemptive). This means you can't hide every turn but at least in the moments you need to breathe you have the normal invisible mechanic for a turn.

Of course, I may be biased when it comes to party balance as I enjoy doing solo character tactician runs. For this same reason I do appreciate that it isn't too easy, since the only reason I play solo tactician is because it typically requires more planning.

Thanks for your feedback. I think having stealth be readily available on such a short cooldown ( via Way of the Umbra and stealth skills being reset) is pretty strong. This was originally the reason why I just had it on WotU and Retreat Into Shadow. If I remove invis from way of the Umbra, and just have it on Retreat into Shadow, players are forced into Chaos form just for that. However, if I also add invis to Preemptive tactics, you can stealth pretty much every other turn. Plus removing stealth from WotU means you have no stealth in the early game (until level 9).

The other option I had in mind is removing the invis from WotU and adding a new skill to grant invisibility (at level 4) whose cooldown is shared across both forms, as well as keeping the remove-at-the-end-of-turn invis on Retreat and Preemptive. This way, invis abuse isn’t as easy, and both forms can access Invisibility.

Do we think this sounds better? That way Umbras can keep safe without being able to abuse it

Also, I forgot to thank you for the mod in my last comment. Only time I've bothered participating in discussion because it is something I am enjoying!

I see your reasoning and it definitely makes sense. The second option you listed sounds promising! But I think my bias toward solo character playthroughs means feedback from original poster and others is more important.

Right peeps, I've added a new patch which includes 4 new "Elite" skills. Elite skills do not have two forms, and their cooldowns are not reset with Way of the Umbra. They do, however, provide useful Utility, such as Invisibility for more than one turn, which would be unbalance-able on normal Umbra skills.

Let me know what you think - I'm off to bed now it's been a long day!

your class mods are AMAZING, and for that reason i would like to suggest a class like a dragon knight. now i know that there is already one on the workshop but it only has a few skills and could be absolutely awesome if it was fully fleshed out by you.

i know this is really random but i just wanted to get it out there in case it gave you an idea and thought it was something you might like to try for the future. also didn't know where to put a suggestion like this sooo /shrug

reason i thought of this was because i was playing with the dragon knight class by claivain, and with your class mods as comparison. i just thought how amazing it would be if it had your touch.

plus the author of the dragon knight class is apparently giving permission to anyone that wants to take over...here's a quote from their page on the workshop.

"I will likely not be making any updates for some time while I recover from surgery. If anyone has ideas and would like to take over the running of this mod, feel free to use my original files and do so as long as I receive credit for my work!"

idk if it still applies but it could be something to look into if you want. anyway i said my piece, also really enjoying the umbra class haven't had any issues with it so far with around 5 hours of play, fantastic work as always. peace!

EDIT just to add the link to the mod i mentioned https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1207358917

Originally posted by Appleaday:

your class mods are AMAZING, and for that reason i would like to suggest a class like a dragon knight. now i know that there is already one on the workshop but it only has a few skills and could be absolutely awesome if it was fully fleshed out by you.

i know this is really random but i just wanted to get it out there in case it gave you an idea and thought it was something you might like to try for the future. also didn't know where to put a suggestion like this sooo /shrug

reason i thought of this was because i was playing with the dragon knight class by claivain, and with your class mods as comparison. i just thought how amazing it would be if it had your touch.

plus the author of the dragon knight class is apparently giving permission to anyone that wants to take over...here's a quote from their page on the workshop.

"I will likely not be making any updates for some time while I recover from surgery. If anyone has ideas and would like to take over the running of this mod, feel free to use my original files and do so as long as I receive credit for my work!"

idk if it still applies but it could be something to look into if you want. anyway i said my piece, also really enjoying the umbra class haven't had any issues with it so far with around 5 hours of play, fantastic work as always. peace!

EDIT just to add the link to the mod i mentioned https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1207358917

That's an excellent suggestion! I really enjoyed this class, but it could do with a little bit of TLC to fully realise its potential. I'd be thrilled to pick it up!

I'll try to get in contact with Claivain and we'll go from there.

Thanks

Originally posted by Odinblade:

Originally posted by Appleaday:

your class mods are AMAZING, and for that reason i would like to suggest a class like a dragon knight. now i know that there is already one on the workshop but it only has a few skills and could be absolutely awesome if it was fully fleshed out by you.

i know this is really random but i just wanted to get it out there in case it gave you an idea and thought it was something you might like to try for the future. also didn't know where to put a suggestion like this sooo /shrug

reason i thought of this was because i was playing with the dragon knight class by claivain, and with your class mods as comparison. i just thought how amazing it would be if it had your touch.

plus the author of the dragon knight class is apparently giving permission to anyone that wants to take over...here's a quote from their page on the workshop.

"I will likely not be making any updates for some time while I recover from surgery. If anyone has ideas and would like to take over the running of this mod, feel free to use my original files and do so as long as I receive credit for my work!"

idk if it still applies but it could be something to look into if you want. anyway i said my piece, also really enjoying the umbra class haven't had any issues with it so far with around 5 hours of play, fantastic work as always. peace!

EDIT just to add the link to the mod i mentioned https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1207358917

That's an excellent suggestion! I really enjoyed this class, but it could do with a little bit of TLC to fully realise its potential. I'd be thrilled to pick it up!

I'll try to get in contact with Claivain and we'll go from there.

Thanks

OMG this'll be nuts if it all works out! so hyped :D

Hey, from a balance standpoint, you did a great job. Other mods on the workshop seem to have no idea how to balance based off real game skills. One small tweak that I think would work well is changing the damage on Spite the Vein to 100% instead of the current damage as 100% is what other single target skills such as Sleeping Arms and Sawtooth Knife are at. Cutthroat is fine at 100% but I feel like Sleeping Arms and Sawtooth Knife are more viable as they do 100% while Sleeping Arms applies atrophy as well and Sawtooth Knife is piercing damage with a possible bleed effect, piercing damage being extremely strong in DOS2.

Originally posted by Leviathxn:

Hey, from a balance standpoint, you did a great job. Other mods on the workshop seem to have no idea how to balance based off real game skills. One small tweak that I think would work well is changing the damage on Spite the Vein to 100% or 115% instead of the current damage as 115% is what other single target skills such as Crippling Blow and Corrupted Blade are at. Cutthroat is fine at 100% but I feel like Sleeping Arms is more viable as it does 100% and applies atrophy.

Thank you! It's nice to have my balance-driven designs appreciated :D

RE: damage on Cutthroat and Spite the Vein, I've kept them at 100% damage as they both deal an additional 25% damage if used from stealth (something the class can easily achieve in its newest iteration). They also apply Bleeding / Fading (Chaos bleeding), so I think the value is about on-par with the base game skills.

However, if the two skills feel slightly underwhelming still, I'm happy to look at nudging their power slighlty so they are more attractive to use without going overboard. Thanks again!

EDIT: I intentionally avoided Piercing in this class, as I do find it to be really strong. Could potentially include some as a skill in the future, perhaps an Elite skill...

Originally posted by Odinblade:

Originally posted by Leviathxn:

Hey, from a balance standpoint, you did a great job. Other mods on the workshop seem to have no idea how to balance based off real game skills. One small tweak that I think would work well is changing the damage on Spite the Vein to 100% or 115% instead of the current damage as 115% is what other single target skills such as Crippling Blow and Corrupted Blade are at. Cutthroat is fine at 100% but I feel like Sleeping Arms is more viable as it does 100% and applies atrophy.

Thank you! It's nice to have my balance-driven designs appreciated :D

RE: damage on Cutthroat and Spite the Vein, I've kept them at 100% damage as they both deal an additional 25% damage if used from stealth (something the class can easily achieve in its newest iteration). They also apply Bleeding / Fading (Chaos bleeding), so I think the value is about on-par with the base game skills.

However, if the two skills feel slightly underwhelming still, I'm happy to look at nudging their power slighlty so they are more attractive to use without going overboard. Thanks again!

EDIT: I intentionally avoided Piercing in this class, as I do find it to be really strong. Could potentially include some as a skill in the future, perhaps an Elite skill...

Hmm, from what I can tell in game for some reason Spite the Vein is doing 44-46 damage at level 10 but when I switch forms Cutthroat does 57-62 which is 100%, the same as the other scoundrel skills like it. Was that intentional? That's why I suggested you turn it up a bit because from an in-game standpoint it seemed to be doing less than it's counterpart by about 10-15%. I unpacked the file data to see if it was a numbers problem in the code and it seems to be fine in the code but when in game it does less than 100% for some reason?

Originally posted by Leviathxn:

Originally posted by Odinblade:

Thank you! It's nice to have my balance-driven designs appreciated :D

RE: damage on Cutthroat and Spite the Vein, I've kept them at 100% damage as they both deal an additional 25% damage if used from stealth (something the class can easily achieve in its newest iteration). They also apply Bleeding / Fading (Chaos bleeding), so I think the value is about on-par with the base game skills.

However, if the two skills feel slightly underwhelming still, I'm happy to look at nudging their power slighlty so they are more attractive to use without going overboard. Thanks again!

EDIT: I intentionally avoided Piercing in this class, as I do find it to be really strong. Could potentially include some as a skill in the future, perhaps an Elite skill...

Hmm, from what I can tell in game for some reason Spite the Vein is doing 44-46 damage at level 10 but when I switch forms Cutthroat does 57-62 which is 100%, the same as the other scoundrel skills like it. Was that intentional? That's why I suggested you turn it up a bit because from an in-game standpoint it seemed to be doing less than it's counterpart by about 10-15%. I unpacked the file data to see if it was a numbers problem in the code and it seems to be fine in the code but when in game it does less than 100% for some reason?

Huh that's odd... By design, the Chaos form skills generally do a slither more damage to facilitate the fact that most enemies have Magic Resistances, whereas seemingly none have Physical Resistances, but the numbers shouldn't be that far off... Will take a look later

Originally posted by Odinblade:

Originally posted by Leviathxn:

Hmm, from what I can tell in game for some reason Spite the Vein is doing 44-46 damage at level 10 but when I switch forms Cutthroat does 57-62 which is 100%, the same as the other scoundrel skills like it. Was that intentional? That's why I suggested you turn it up a bit because from an in-game standpoint it seemed to be doing less than it's counterpart by about 10-15%. I unpacked the file data to see if it was a numbers problem in the code and it seems to be fine in the code but when in game it does less than 100% for some reason?

Huh that's odd... By design, the Chaos form skills generally do a slither more damage to facilitate the fact that most enemies have Magic Resistances, whereas seemingly none have Physical Resistances, but the numbers shouldn't be that far off... Will take a look later

From what I can see Chaos skills are doing 20% or more damage about on each one, which their damage is fine, it's similar to other skills but Order skills feel weak numbers wise because they do less than almost all other skills in game.