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Age of Empires II (2013) >  Workshop > Zetnus's Workshop > Middle Earth - The War of the Ring > Discussions
Middle Earth - The War of the Ring
Description Discussions2 Comments135 Change Notes
Zetnus  [developer] 14 May, 2013 @ 4:45am
I need some input on civilization choices
A lot of you had suggestions for different civilizations for some of the factions, so I am making a dedicated thread to ask for your advice on which civilizations to choose.
Here are the current civilizations and my rationale for choosing them, as well as some alternatives that have been suggested. What do you think?


Player 1: Men of Gondor and Rohan - Byzantines
I chose the Byzantines because they are a defensive nation with extra building HP (which suits Gondor) and with a good tech tree including cavalry and a unique Cavalry unit, which suits Rohan. Also, the real Byzantine Empire in decline mirrors the situation in Gondor.

It has been noted that the architecture could fit better to Gondor, and that person suggested maybe Teutons or Franks instead. My current feeling is to stick with the Byzantines for now though.


Player 2: Mordor - Celts [UPDATE - Mordor is now the Aztecs]
I choose the Celts because they are an infantry based civilzation with strong focus on siege weapons as well, both of which fit to Mordor.

Goths and Aztecs both might make viable alternatives, as they are both infantry-based as well. Jaguar warriors look sort of like creatures that Mordor might field. Aztec architecture could look ok for Mordor, although castle is a pyramid. Aztecs lack horses and Goths lack walls, but this is okay because the walls and Black Riders are already in place when the game starts.


Player 3: Elves - Britons
The stereotype is that Elves are archers so the British with their long-bowmen seemed fitting.

No one has suggested anything different for the Elves so far. The Mayan’s complete lack of horses makes them not so good of an alternative in my opinion, as the Elves do ride horses.


Player 4: Isengard - Japanese [UPDATE - Isengard is now the Celts]
My thought on choosing the Japanese was that they are an infantry nation with a siege (treb) bonus. Their fishing bonuses are wasted though…

Celts seem to be a good alternative because they also have infantry and siege bonuses. Goths would be more of a problem because Isengard needs strong walls as it is surrounded by enemies. If I switch Mordor away from Celts, I will probably make Isengard the Celts.


Player 5: Free People of Eriador - [UPDATE - Eriador is now the Franks]
Basically, the Free People of Eriador is a broad name to include Hobbits from the Shire, Men from Bree and Elves of the Gray Havens. The choice of civilization should reflect this. A balanced civilization that includes naval techs is needed. I chose the Chinese because I thought an economy bonus might be fitting for this largely peaceful group of people. The UU could be Elves...

Various people have said they wanted to replace the Chinese. The Franks have been put forward as a better alternative. This is the one case where I really don't know what to do; I think several of the civilizations might be ok - what do you suggest?


Player 6: Goblins of Angmar - [UPDATE - Goblins is now the Goths]
I chose the Vikings because of their longboats and their berserks. What is needed is an infantry strong civilization with still some cavalry (think warg riders) and ships for the ice bay.

It's been suggested that the Berserks would look like dwarves, and I agree (the Dwarf heroes are largely Viking heroes). If the dwarves were made as Vikings, the Goblins of the north could be Goths - the lack of stone walls would not be an issue.


Player 7: Dwarves of the Iron Hills - [UPDATE - Dwarves are now the Teutons]
Dwarves are slow but powerful infantry, and so are the Teutons. They are also good at building sturdy defenses.

The Vikings have been suggested because visually the Berserks look like dwarves. I'm not sure about this one, because Teutonic knights make half-way decent dwarves as well and the longboats would be wasted on the dwarves.


Player 8: Harad and Umbar- Persians
There is no question about this one, the war elephants are a must, and the camels add a nice touch. The navy is also strong.


So yeah, that’s about it.
Tell me what you think about the civilization choices; I am open to reasonable suggestions.
Thanks for supporting this map!
Last edited by Zetnus; 19 May, 2013 @ 2:56pm
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Showing 1-13 of 13 comments
FE_HockeySam18 14 May, 2013 @ 7:22am 
I think you've hit all of my suggestions atm, but also realize that re Mordor's pyramid castles, you can always change GAIA civ to Spanish, place the GAIA Spanish castle (Minas Morgul) in Mordor, and then have a trigger change its ownership to Mordor at the start of the game. Then you could do the same thing in Isengard with the Spanish wonder as Orthanc.

Dol Guldur seems a bit useless atm, perhaps you could add a barracks there or something?

Have you ever played the AOK scenario War of the Ring by Mashek? It is a good example of some of my suggestions. The link is here: http://aok.heavengames.com/blacksmith/showfile.php?fileid=7326
#1
[Valhalla] Alkhalim 15 May, 2013 @ 9:16am 
I would support the idea of using atzecs for Mordor and using a Gaia-castle, although i think that the teutonic one would fit in better, the Spanish castles would fit to Rohan (Helms deep) or the goblins of Angmar. Another (maybe offtopic) thing would be giving Harad/Rhun more mamelukes at the beginning, as they cannot be recreated.
#2
Zetnus  [developer] 15 May, 2013 @ 4:31pm 
@HockeySam - I've decided that the Aztec pyramid actually looks fine. I did make Orthanc into a monument. I didn't use a trigger, so whoever controls Isengard, also controls Orthanc. It's rocks are too old to be destroyed ;)


Anyway, to the main point. I've made a series of changes and am ready to post an update. Do you have experience with workshop item updates? I know that I can upload a file and give it the same title to replace the old version in the workshop. But will it actually autmatically dowload the new version for all the subscribers, or do they have to clear the old version or unsubscribe/resubscribe to get the update?

I can always make a whole new item, but I'm trying to aviod that.
#3
Slasher_D 16 May, 2013 @ 2:00pm 
Concerning the steam workshop, I have some some mods or other files that were updated automatically. I didn't have to unsubscribe and re-subscribe.
Note: I'm not a modder and have never any uplaoded content.
Back to the original topic. I think the suggestions you put up are good. Like some people said, you could use gaia units/buildings to have different sets/architectures.
#4
Supreme Emu 17 May, 2013 @ 12:42am 
Just a thought, switch elves from Britons to Mayans. I know Britons are the "archer" civ but the Mayans have a better buff for foot archers. Also I suppose it will look more elfish as their buildings have some foliage in them.
#5
Buiddechass 17 May, 2013 @ 12:49am 
May I suggest that Rohan could be closer to the Huns as both were cavalry based militaries? I do agree with the Vikings being the dwarves but can also understand the situations with the Teutons as they do come from Northern Europe which makes it kind of work (as the Vikings as well were from Northern Europe)
#6
Zetnus  [developer] 17 May, 2013 @ 5:18am 
@Buidechass - I agree that a cavalry civliztation would be great for Rohan, but since there is a maximum of 8 nations I have a combined Gondor/Rohan. The Huns would be a top choice for a standalone Rohan, but the huns hardly fit with Gondor (and Gondor makes up the bigger portion of Gondor and Rohan on the map).
If I could, I would have added at least 2 more nations ...
#7
FE_HockeySam18 17 May, 2013 @ 10:24am 
IMO Gondor/Rohan should either be Byzantines (for the reasons you have already stated) or Teutons, since Teutons are an excellent defensive civ, great cavalry, and the TKs as strong Gondorian infantry, as well as their aesthetics looking better (I still don't like that Middle Eastern castle in the middle of Gondor). Then you can make the Dwarves vikings since the berserks are most similar to dwarves, and vikings have weak cavalry (seeing Dwarves with paladins and heavy horse archers is kinda awkward). Another advantage is the possible use of the Teuton wonder in Minas Tirith.
Last edited by FE_HockeySam18; 17 May, 2013 @ 10:26am
#8
FE_HockeySam18 17 May, 2013 @ 10:32am 
Another interesting idea is to use Eriador as Teutons (strong cavalry too, TKs as Dunedain), and Franks as Gondor/Rohan (even stronger cavalry due to increased HP and full access to the scout cavalry line, axemen as soldiers of Ithilien, Rohan infantry, or Rhovanion soldiers). It's a bit of a toss up, there isn't any wrong choice here, though if you use the Byzantines for Gondor it would look better to design the city with GAIA buildings (IIRC you are using Spanish as GAIA so you can have Orthanc in Isengard and the West-Euro castle in Minas Morgul), so that Minas Tirith, Helms Deep, and such can have the more realistic West-Euro acrhitecture.
#9
Zetnus  [developer] 19 May, 2013 @ 3:05pm 
I'm testing the Dwarves as Vikings now. Gondor now has a Spanish (GAIA) castle in Minas Tirith and a second one as the new Helms Deep. I've still kept them as Byzantines for now though. The white buildings do make a good white city for minas Tirith in my opinion (even though the architecture is not western).
I guess one could argue that Minas Morgul should have the same castle as Minias Tirith, although in the movie they don't look that similar...
#10
FE_HockeySam18 19 May, 2013 @ 8:22pm 
Cool! Byzantines are a good choice, I agree, though Teutons or Franks would be good as well. Like I said, it's a toss up, and Cataphracts bonus vs infantry well represent the dominance of the Rohirrim over Orc infantry. Minas Morgul is also an interesting case. The Aztec Castle annexed to a barracks and surrounded with Aztec wall except at the front side (the side with the doors) might look slightly more malevolent, though a West-Euro castle annexed to West-Euro barracks but with Aztec wall may also look good. The main argument for that is that the Gondorians/Late Numenorians built Minas Morgul (first Minas Ithil), so there could be a similarity there. Naturally it could have changed since the Witch-King took it over.
#11
Ruinae Retroque Rursus 7 Aug, 2015 @ 5:41pm 
Well, I thought I'd give you my 2c on the matter long gone :P :
Gondor/Rohan as Byzantines makes sense, but so does Teutons or Franks... though not Franks, their defences are rubbish (and Throwing Axemen? What've they got to do with anything? :P) The Rohan bit makes sense as the Byzantines, although Rohan should probably be the Huns (though that throws Gondor off MASSIVELY)

Mordor: Aztecs is fine. Pity there's no form of troll...
Possibly set up a triggering station: move three Jaguar Warriors and get a troll, or something? It's what I did with Erebor to give them Throwing Axemen (in one of my scenarios). Just make sure you also set a "task object" for the resulting troll that spawns: this will allow people to train trolls by setting a rally point for whatever into the troll enclosure.

Elves as Britons: Suits me fine :P Possibly the Chinese, if you wanted a change.

Isengard: Celts is good. Possibly allow them to get Bombard Cannons (they had cannons in the book for Helm's Deep), although I don't think Celts can get Bombard Cannons anyway :P Another possibility would be (for TF) Incas, however the scenario is just the normal, and I can change it myself anyway :P

Eriador: Franks is fine, other civiliations would also be fine (Britons if ya wanted, but that's the Elves). Nothing much is really said about them :P

Orcs: Goths suits them, except I'd give them Stone Walls to start.

Dwarves: I wouldn't go with Vikings (that's what it was last time I checked; you did say the workshop wasn't updating, soo...) The choice of Teutons is probably good. Perhaps the Dwarves could be the only civilisation to build Bombard Towers, seeing as they did have very good defences?

Umbar and Harad: Persians. :P
#12
Zetnus  [developer] 7 Aug, 2015 @ 10:55pm 
Wow, it's been a long time. I'll update this map to the most recent version now that we have the new workshop.
It seems I never changed the Dwarves to be Teutons. I suppose I could fix that now.
Last edited by Zetnus; 7 Aug, 2015 @ 11:25pm
#13
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