Darkest Dungeon®

Darkest Dungeon®

Phantom - New Class
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o'night  [developer] 20 Jul, 2018 @ 6:50am
Balance Feedback
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Showing 1-9 of 9 comments
alvarox951 27 Aug, 2018 @ 2:52pm 
i don't know if this should go here
but i think you should make some changes to the phantom's COM trincket
mostly because i don't find any way to use i properly, the stealth effect on the enemy only last one turn so i never get to do the bonus damage againts them, only one phanton can aply stealth to enemies and do bonus damage againts them, and overall, and overall aplying stealth to the enemy isn't a good idea
o'night  [developer] 27 Aug, 2018 @ 11:28pm 
Thanks for feedback, i've planned rework for com trinket.
Chikanuk 12 Jan, 2019 @ 11:55am 
Interesting mod, not as overpowered as acolyte, but still. I wont play him that much, but please, dont take "chanse for extra action" lightly. This is strongest effect what skill can have. And this is why well balanced class mods dont have easy acces to this, for example look on snake charmer - he can give ally an extra action, but this skill debuff ally heavily while he make this extra move, and have limited uses per battle. And still this is incredibly strong ability. Whyile phantom have extra action as bonus effect, lol.
o'night  [developer] 12 Jan, 2019 @ 12:04pm 
Thanks for feedback. I agree that Acoylte is quite strong but according to community he is "very weak and useless" so I'm holding off with nerfs.

Phantom's chance of bonus action is on self only skill while Snake Charmer or Acolyte can target ally with it and theirs bonus action is guaranteed instead of being chance based.
Last edited by o'night; 12 Jan, 2019 @ 12:04pm
Chikanuk 12 Jan, 2019 @ 1:41pm 
Many people who dont love challenge stuck in DD for some reason. This guys who download cheat-mods and use cheatengine to have 100k moneys and weak one. And for this people even strongest champions will be weak. And (just my opinion) acolyte is strogest class what i even met in DD so far.
You simply cant make mod for everyone. Someone always will be displeased. Just look on arguments, this is best way to figure who is right. Look at the numbers for example - Acolyte can heal more than vestal - strogest vanilla healer in the game. He heal with HoTs - this make his party incredibly hard to kill, and HoTs in general far stronger than regular heal with same numbers. This is why they so rare in vanilla, and this is why flag bleed himself for more hp than he heal with HoT. And not only that, but he did alot of damage. No support can show some numbers, not even close. And he give additional action to ally. Combine this and you will understand why many experienced players think what he OP.
IMHO its better to make champoin weaker than average and then buff him, than start from OP champion and trying to make him weaker. Most ppl will play with weak hero, if he interesting. Im sure. But (at least for me) overpowered heroes and mechanics take away good chunk of game interest.
And about bonus action - This is not just 2x damage. You can repeat any skill, so all effects, heals, stuns, etc are dubbled. This is not as powerful with phantom, but still - this proc really strong thing.
o'night  [developer] 12 Jan, 2019 @ 2:24pm 
I mostly balance my classes on feedback from experienced players, as I can be biased towards my classes and I know most of strengths and weaknesses of them while other players might not. If you have suggestions on number changes feel free to share em.

Also about arguments - I've seen a lot of arguments why Acolyte's heals are weak and should be buffed - most of them are "heals are low, slow, unreliable, not increased with trinkets, have debuffs, apply disease"
Last edited by o'night; 12 Jan, 2019 @ 2:43pm
Chikanuk 12 Jan, 2019 @ 2:43pm 
Not now but surely later, it was just my first expression. I need to play him from lvl 0 to lvl 5 to have real understanding. I just point that he seems more balanced than acolyte, and modders in general underestimate "add action" skills, so they mostly overpowered, like one acolyte have. I can be wrong about phantom one right now.
Later ill will try to make more userful and complicated feedback.
trollwuzu 26 Jun, 2019 @ 11:21am 
Some of my personal thoughts regarding Phantom.

PHANTOM

This class is really unique but the best ability is Assasinate because it leaves no corpse. This is somewhat similar to Highway man Duelist Advance but without Riposte.

The other interesting ability is Ichorous Heal which steals life from allies to heal self kinda like a Succubus but not strong enough to really warrant using it.

Deatharang is too niche and the back 1 limits the use to backline.

Blind Throw, Vanishing Trick, Shadow Cloak, Marked Fate and Shady Setup all of these are not useful. Maybe Shadow Cloak is useful sometimes.


Phantom suggestions:
- Make Assasinate XXXO forward 3 and buff crit or damage so you can make him jump from back to front for a finishbing blow
- Make Deatharang X+X+X+X target entire enemy stack with reduced damage but normal crit launchable from XXOO backrow
- I would replace Shadow Cloak and Vanishing Trick with the following two abilities
Shadow Push = push any ally including self 2 forward + unmoveable
Shadow Pull = pull any ally including self 2 back + unmoveable
All of these 70% chance of being a free action
- Make all phantom abilities (except for the two above) 40% chance of being free Action

Just ideas.
Last edited by trollwuzu; 26 Jun, 2019 @ 11:33am
o'night  [developer] 26 Jun, 2019 @ 12:17pm 
Thanks for feedback.

You've read about his hidden mechanics, right? Ichorous Heal is much more useful that it might look, it clears debuffs, can even clear mortality debuffs, it actually heals a bit more if you have healing trinkets on anyone in your party and he doesn't need big heals anyway because of his low max hp.

Deatharang is intended to be used at start of combat (or right after shadow cloak) to deal damage to rank 4 and debuff rank 1 (who often has some prot). Or be used in a fight against boss. Or to move back when you really need it.

We have thought about making Blind Throw to move back during beta test but decided to keep move back on other two skills.

We thought about skill similar to your Shadow Bomb suggestion but there were both technical and balance issues with it, so we decided to make it self only and much stronger instead. Shadow Cloak is actually incredibly strong, I'd say it's his strongest skill - stealth, very high crit chance (and even if you fail to crit you will have another chance next turn), chance to act again, and also that huge move resist that prevents his own skills to move him so he doesn't ruin formation when you don't want it - all these things make the skill incredibly powerful and quite fun to use, well, at least in my opinion.

Shadow Pull/Push skills sound interesting, but I doubt they would fit Phantom.

Oh and his Shadow Trick, it's the only skill that he can use to get out from rank 4 (apart from his self shuffle skill ofc) so it already has a purpose, and stun with self stealth are always useful. Fun fact about this particular skill: during development it was stealing stealth from enemy instead of what it does now.

And as always, if you have more to discuss you are welcome.
Last edited by o'night; 26 Jun, 2019 @ 6:54pm
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