Slay the Spire

Slay the Spire

The Vacant
Mirli 18 Apr, 2022 @ 11:25pm
Balance Suggestions Thread
So as to not clog up the regular comments page, I'm gonna start a thread here detailing things that I think Vacant could use work on in terms of balance based on my experience with Downfall.

1) Milling an empty deck should reshuffle and cycle. I'm all for making excess mill stop at an empty deck (for example you mill 5 in a deck that has 4), but allowing you to keep playing mill cards or gems when your draw pile is already empty feels pretty exploitative.
2) Grave Digger has *way* too much damage for a common, especially one that can be rebounded when milled. It solves way too many fights in act one simply by itself. I'd suggest either reducing its damage or removing the rebound keyword. A rarity bump to uncommon wouldn't be a bad idea either.
3) Emerald Gems are far too plentiful. With the recursion Vacant has access to, and the fact that many cards can summon Emerald size 3 gems, you can quickly run into situations with very little effort where you're filling your entire hand on draw. Draw effects are typically very tightly controlled, and I think many sources of Emeralds beyond size 1 should be very closely examined to make sure they aren't way too good, or at least Emerald Splash. Sorry Kakyoin, you're too powerful to live.
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Showing 1-15 of 22 comments
Laugic  [developer] 25 Apr, 2022 @ 4:45pm 
I appreciate all the balance suggestions, and thanks for the feedback!

For 1, I'm not sure what you mean by Milling while the draw is empty feeling exploitative- If you Mill while the draw is empty, you don't get any value out of the Mill, so it seems balanced to me.

2- I felt Grave Digger was too underpowered last time, so I probably overbuffed it to compensate. I'll look to rebalancing it again for next patch.

3- Emerald Splash is being changed to Exhaust, and Treasure+ is no longer buffing Gem Size, so larger Emeralds will be much less common. Perhaps Emerald Splash+ could do without upgrading Emerald size as well.
Mirli 26 Apr, 2022 @ 4:25am 
The entire value of the mill is to get your deck down to 0 cards so void can begin taking effect, isn't it? Being able to continually push your deck down to 0, especially in a smaller deck can basically mean you have a permanent significant boost to strength and dex
Laugic  [developer] 29 Apr, 2022 @ 5:58pm 
That's one of the benefits yes, and making Mill reshuffle after playing it with an empty discard would kill that synergy a bit. Do you think Mill + Void is too strong at the moment?
Mirli 29 Apr, 2022 @ 9:03pm 
In certain situations definitely. If you get the event to upgrade your goblet (which isn't uncommon) you can get some pretty spicy Void numbers. If you make your deck thin enough it's not uncommon to get a basically permanent +5-6 STR and DEX
Laugic  [developer] 2 May, 2022 @ 2:07pm 
Wouldn't that still be the case with what you suggested though? You just wouldn't play things that Milled if you had 0 things in your draw pile
nerman8r 18 Sep, 2022 @ 8:10pm 
Hello. I just played Vacant for the first time, and I want to say I really like it. I find most mod characters overwhelming, or just a mess. I enjoy Vacant's mechanics, and the animations and art are really cute.

That said, I do think it seems somewhat broken. I played at A0, so of course the game was easy, but some things stuck out as being especially problematic:

- The event blalo'u mentioned where you can increase your void relic seems too strong. I used it three times, and was able to Mill my whole deck almost every turn, giving me 5 str and dex most of the time.

- Cracked Crystal Ball was also ridiculous. With healing cards (reap?), you could kite every enemy to gain full health. I know Ironclad does this too, but reap cards are uncommon.

- Reap seem in general easy to exploit with a bunch of 0-cost cards.

- There are some very high numbers on common cards. These stick out: Doomed attacks for 14, Thoughtseize for 10, Partake blocks for 8 at 0-mana.
Last edited by nerman8r; 18 Sep, 2022 @ 8:11pm
nerman8r 18 Sep, 2022 @ 8:11pm 
Anyway, thanks for putting so much work into a great mod. I look forward to playing it more!
Laugic  [developer] 29 Nov, 2022 @ 3:44pm 
Thanks for this feedback, and sorry I didn't see it til now! The goblet event is much more punishing on higher ascensions, which is what I normally play on, so you normally wouldn't be able to consistently get away with popping it 3 times. Cracked Crystal Ball is very punishing with statuses, and on higher ascensions, stalling for minuscule healing from Reap usually results in taking more damage than you would heal from those cards. I tried to balance the cards around comparable vanilla cards. Some of them are probably overtuned because I don't like losing but I play on high ascensions lol.
Nordos/atord 17 Dec, 2022 @ 12:40pm 
Mind you that I too am still on low Ascensions, but I would still would like to mention a few things I noticed
- the starter crds feel too good. Especially Soul Bash. While Corporeate can be removed at some point when you have enough mill, Soul Bash will be basically never to be removed. It has Riochet, it costs 0, and it practically deals 6 damage (kind of even more with the amount of double and triple hit cards you can have access to)
- Mill feels too .... easy? Forge Soul can be really strong, Brass Magnet is one card I loved to pick when I have a few ways to mill, Spelunk can easily fill up your gem slots, but the worst offender is Runic Thoughts. It generally leads to me overdrawing and snappicking any 0 cost cards
- a lot of block cards seem to be giving quite a bit of block, especially with the saphires. (maybe its just spelunk...? Wear the Goblet at least needs some investments)
- there are a lot of cheap multi hit cards or AoEs, which are especially deadly with Void (Eye Poke, Emerald Splash or Shrieking Blast). You can also increase damage via Doom or Vigor.

Well, thats my initial impression. Generally, though, I quite like this mod, it plays quite smoothly. I just keep falling into the mill archetype so easily
Laugic  [developer] 18 Dec, 2022 @ 8:12am 
Glad you're enjoying the mod! I'm always looking to make it feel more balanced, so feedback is always welcome. The block may be a bit overtuned, especially Spelunk. That was a change that was made just before this release so there wasn't much balance testing for it. It could probably be 8 Block size 2 Sapphire by default. I also think I might make Corporeate give Temperance instead of Block so it isn't as confusing with its interaction with Dex and Temperance, and also isn't just "Better defend". As for Soul Bash, it is probably too strong yeah. Boosting its numbers and making it cost 1 might be a good way to fix that.

Runic Thoughts is in a weird spot. Its current iteration is probably indeed way too strong, but I'm not sure what else to do for a rebound-themed power.
Nordos/atord 18 Dec, 2022 @ 8:37am 
My proposal would be:
- Keep the 3 damage / 3 Vigor, and increase the cost to 1. Upgrade to decrease the cost to 0. As such, it initlally is basically a strike that also riocheets and enabled multi attacks.
- Changing Corporeal to Temperance does sound fine in my opinion. It would indeed be less confusing all in all, and wouldn't make it to be a mostly better defend.
- Now, Runic Thoughts is a weird one. Changing it can make it too weak, while its current iteration is overtuned. Hoe about unupgraded it only riocheets 0 cost cards, and the Upgrade, instead of giving Riocheet to itself and reduce the cost to 0, it would simply adapt the riocheeted cards to also be costing 1?
The way it currently is, it has too many synergies. The Relic that mills your whole deck at the start of your turn, or the card that does - both easily give you access to Runic in turn 2. Add in the relic that gives you block whenever you riocheet a card, it can become monstrous. Removing its inherent riocheet makes it a bit harder to find and less consistent (or rather, powerful).

I will keep you posted on further feedback. I am still trying to find a different archetype without falling into mill (since its so central and useful with a lot fo things). I do think that the power that returns exhausted cards after 2 rounds into the library feels ... not good? Basically, I rarely go into that many rounds in hallway fights, and its mostly the Bosses where it actually does something. But the effect is not noticeable either, and there is already a relic that does it, turning that power completly obsolete. There is the other one, which gives you 1 Void at exhausting - and it feels too slow. There are just a couple of ways to recurr cards, and even if you played 4 exhausts, it is a drop in the bucket at the turn it actually may be online.
Maybe thats just because of the low ascension, but that was my experience.
Nordos/atord 18 Dec, 2022 @ 8:49am 
Also, I am not sure I like the way Diamonds are used. 'Diamond is unbreakable' is fairly underwhelming, since you rarely need so many diamons in a turn nor can you spare that much energy.
I would have proposed that Diamons would instead give a buffer on being chipped, while also not being affected by size increases (to prevent having basically 2 buffer for the rest of the fight)
nerman8r 18 Dec, 2022 @ 12:21pm 
I don't like diamonds because they work differently than all the other gems. It's confusing and inconsistent.
Laugic  [developer] 19 Dec, 2022 @ 6:42pm 
Cracked Reflection with Diamond is Unbreakable is a fun combo imo, and it being a flexible amount of Buffer (or Diamonds acting like normal buffers if you have Reach Through) makes it quite versatile too. They are inconsistent with other gems in the sense that they don't give a boost at the start of the turn, but in every other way they're the same. Dark orbs and Plasma are also slightly different than Lightning and Frost, but still feel like orbs. I'm open to possible change ideas though.
Laugic  [developer] 19 Dec, 2022 @ 6:48pm 
I have found Immaterialize to be very useful on decks that have powerful exhaust cards that could use being played multiple times, but I see how it can be slow. Some of the most powerful cards Vacant has Exhaust, so it seems like it has many good hits. There are other ways to enable Exhaust return though, including the Crystal Ball like you said.
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