Left 4 Dead 2

Left 4 Dead 2

Fallen Fortress
Nuclearstomp 15 Mar, 2022 @ 12:57am
Feedback for Fallen Fortress Beta
Ok our discord got together and finally managed to play the campaign in versus. I will be compiling a list of issues that I and other people had.

First issue: The length of the maps. The maps are short enough that getting to the saferoom in versus with all 4 survivors is pretty common. This is something I've even noticed in campaign, where the maps length leads to them ending too quickly for the maps to wear a team down to the point where they will be defeated. I think every every map, 1-4, could perhaps be slightly extended without hurting the difficulty balancing between campaign and versus.

Second issue: Some areas just don't have enough locations to spawn in versus. I think this is something that will naturally be addressed as you update the maps to have more objects though.

Third issue: Lift still gives way too many points for being entirely free. One of the people playing the match said that there was supposedly a fix for this, so it's probably possible to make the lift give 0 points. I do appreciate that the lift goes slower while still covering a distance though, in the first iteration it was so fast that it was kind of absurd and it still took a while.

Also it would be nice if there was a way to spawn above the lift in Versus so you can ambush the survivors easier when they get out. The only other way is to spawn directly outside the tunnel where it's hard to attack from.

Fourth issue: The catwalk room above the bus needs more areas for infected to attack from, maybe some boxes up top or something. If the tank spawns here it's entirely useless and the infected team can't spawn anywhere to support it. Also it's a much easier drop than the other side because of this.

Fifth issue: This one is a bit of a personal problem, but the holdout at the end of the Map 2 is just too easy. Most of the infected funnel in from one way especially if you don't open the gate on the right to go back for ammo. Very easy to stay in one spot here and not do much. No real specific feedback on this one.

Sixth issue: The finale is way too easy, in campain and versus. In campaign is very easy to camp up high, especially on the fences up top and stay there the entire time until tanks and the finale area gives you a LOT of room to kite the tanks around and maneuver (which isn't entirely bad especially with 2 tanks). I feel like the layout of the finale needs to be updated a little, perhaps with more ways for infected to get around and cover that is harder to defend from all angles.

This issue is even more prevalent in versus. It's so extremely easy for survivors to camp up top in the building on the left that infected can barely even teach them there. Tank doesn't help that much, just way too many easily defensible areas that have no risk.
People in the discord server I play with aren't huge fans of static holdouts but everyone in the lobby unanimously agreed that they did not like the finale, especially for versus and they found it annoying as infected and boring as survivors.

Now I want to be clear, I still think this is a fantastic campaign, but these are some of the problems that came up on the most recent playthrough. Some people did enjoy it but had a lot of problems with the general design.

I think honestly that as far as just campaign goes the finale needs to be altered. It's an interesting layout but it doesn't provide much challenge.

I don't know how worried you are about versus play for the campaign but on that side of things there are a lot of potential issues. I think fixing some of them is as simple as continuing to work on the campaign and fleshing it out, but the length issue is one that would require actively reworking parts of each map.

Regardless, this is just the feedback I have for now. In the future when this is updated (or if I find anything major between now and then) I will play again and hopefully come back with more helpful feedback. Keep up the good work!

Edit: I would have posted this as a comment instead of a discussion but it was simply too long to do so.
Last edited by Nuclearstomp; 15 Mar, 2022 @ 1:28am
< >
Showing 1-8 of 8 comments
Frözen  [developer] 16 Mar, 2022 @ 2:29pm 
This is the biggest response related to versus play I’ve ever gotten on this map, thank you, I’ll definitely work on these in the Alpha version

Though, I do disagree with one thing, I think that everyone getting to the safe room very easily is more on the aforementioned lack of attack points in some areas rather than the map length, the first level of No Mercy is shorter than any of the maps in this campaign and I hardly see people even get halfway across
Nuclearstomp 16 Mar, 2022 @ 2:50pm 
That's a fair point. I guess we'll see eventually as the maps are updated. :D
Nuclearstomp 10 May, 2022 @ 6:17pm 
Ok I return with more feedback now that I've played the new version! Overall the maps are greatly improved and the campaign looks good.

Map 1: Nothing really to add, final version is good.

Map 2: Also good. The changes to the auto garage work well. For some reason the event felt a little harder but that may have just been me being a goofball, but I do like it being harder.

It would be nice if the player had more incentive to go over to the left side because the auto garage is far more appealing and easy to find.

Map 3: Map could maybe be a little longer. Changes to event area are nice by the way. It would be cool if maybe there was more to do in the 2nd area the vehicle has to get through, like the zombies slow down a little bit and then you have to grab a fuel can or two because the vehicle stops. This would help balance out the length of the map a little I think without making any actual changes to the length. I also think there could be some extra cars on the road outside of the tunnel, like some big tricks or an extra alarm car, just as extra cover for the infected. (Also if a tank spawns there's a way to actually juke it!)

Map 4: This is the only map that I think needs a significant improvement to length. It's generally solid but it's so so short and it means you're not really properly worn down for the event. I'd recommend adding in more areas to get through between the factory and the event, but besides that the level itself is fine.

Map 5: More difficult now that you can't camp somewhere completely safe. Even with just 2 players on expert we did it fine, because the boxes are pretty good for holding out, but it was more challenging and I appreciate that. Haven't had a chance to test the finale in versus unfortunately!


Issues that happened in multiple maps:

1. Witches like to spawn in places that are impossible to get to or have her be startled from. Ex: On top of the apartments, on top of the store roof.

2. Maybe slightly too many defibs. These maps aren't that long and not super hard (except for the event in map 3, but that's still doable). With 2 players we only had to use defibs for that specific event because the bots aren't very good. With 4 players you don't really need defibs on any maps. Personally, I feel like 1 defib spawn for Map 2, 3 and 4 is fine. Though idk, maybe with only 2 players the director was taking it easy on us for item spawns.

3. Not enough tanks spawned during our playthrough. Weird thing to say I know. A witch spawned on nearly every map but besides finale we had tank spawn once. I feel like maps 2 and 4 could really use that tank spawn to make them a little harder, but I know that's somewhat up to the mercy of the director. I'm not saying to add in scripted tanks (please don't) but if there's any way to increase the odds that a tank could spawn in a map I'd recommend it.

Overall: The campaign is really solid and these improvements are all good. The biggest issue with the campaign I have at the moment is probably that it's a bit on the easier side, but that's just a personal thing.
Nuclearstomp 10 May, 2022 @ 7:35pm 
Oh also, on Map 3 Louis spawns outside of the saferoom.
Frözen  [developer] 11 May, 2022 @ 8:43pm 
Originally posted by Nuclearstomp:
It would be nice if the player had more incentive to go over to the left side because the auto garage is far more appealing and easy to find.
During development, I had this thought cross my head to have it randomly pick a path to block, kinda like in Dead Center level 3 before the running event, where there’s a chance that you’re forced to go through the toy store up top, or down low through an emergency door, but because you can’t return to either area after dropping down, the blocked off area will have all these precious items that you can’t get, so I dunno, maybe I should try it anyways or try something different
I also think there could be some extra cars on the road outside of the tunnel, like some big tricks or an extra alarm car, just as extra cover for the infected. (Also if a tank spawns there's a way to actually juke it!)
Yeah, sure, I’ll add that

1. Witches like to spawn in places that are impossible to get to or have her be startled from. Ex: On top of the apartments, on top of the store roof.
Weird, but I’ll try to fix it

2. Maybe slightly too many defibs. These maps aren't that long and not super hard (except for the event in map 3, but that's still doable). With 2 players we only had to use defibs for that specific event because the bots aren't very good. With 4 players you don't really need defibs on any maps. Personally, I feel like 1 defib spawn for Map 2, 3 and 4 is fine. Though idk, maybe with only 2 players the director was taking it easy on us for item spawns.
Sure

3. Not enough tanks spawned during our playthrough. Weird thing to say I know. A witch spawned on nearly every map but besides finale we had tank spawn once. I feel like maps 2 and 4 could really use that tank spawn to make them a little harder, but I know that's somewhat up to the mercy of the director. I'm not saying to add in scripted tanks (please don't) but if there's any way to increase the odds that a tank could spawn in a map I'd recommend it.
Level 1 doesn’t have any tank spawns because they’d be too overpowered in the claustrophobic areas of the office or on the rooftops, so that was on purpose, for every other level, though, yeah, that was probably on the director, because the only thing I did to limit tank spawns is on 2-way forks in the road so you can’t avoid them by going the other way

The biggest issue with the campaign I have at the moment is probably that it's a bit on the easier side
Too much skill issue

Originally posted by Nuclearstomp:
Oh also, on Map 3 Louis spawns outside of the saferoom.
Let him in then

Anyways, thanks for the response again, I’m fixing some things right now
Last edited by Frözen; 11 May, 2022 @ 8:46pm
Frözen  [developer] 11 May, 2022 @ 8:51pm 
Originally posted by The Frözenfires:
for every other level, though, yeah, that was probably on the director, because the only thing I did to limit tank spawns is on 2-way forks in the road so you can’t avoid them by going the other way
Actually, never mind, it was me, as I’m going through the levels again, I found a lot of tank-free areas
Nuclearstomp 12 Jul, 2022 @ 3:18am 
Ok so coming back with more feedback for the campaign. Here's a vod of my most recent playthrough in case you want to see the playthrough.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1529484268

Issues I found:

Saw a zombie climb on the air.

Way too many throwables, ammo packs, ect. We were playing on Realism Expert and this many items probably shouldn't be spawning on that difficulty level.

I think the armory in Map 4 is a little too generous in retrospect. The map isn't very long and it gives you 4 pills and pretty much any gun you want.

During the finale a zombie was clipping into the ground.

This was all I really noticed while playing. Difficulty is a bit on the lower side with the sheer amount of items, that really needs to be looked at. The campaign is pretty much fine as is otherwise, maybe there's like an area or two that could use an extra object to fill space.

The only thing I really could recommend doing at this point is extending at least Maps 3-4 but all of them could really use it. I know I keep saying this, but every map in this campaign is really on the short side.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Feedback for Survival:

The Park is a good survival map imo. There's a good balance between items and the cramped area is fun to fight in. There's a couple spots where you can get on top of the buildings, especially if a tank smacks you, but you're still confined to the park boundaries. Nothing game breaking but I felt I should point it out.

The Fortress map on the other hand... I didn't get to play much of it but you just hold out in the room by the stairs with all the desks. Very easy, could maybe use a 2nd entrance in that area to make it harder to defend. Other than that, the desks (and some other objects) emit spitter goo when stood on for too long, so that's something to look into.

I haven't had a chance to check out any of the other survival maps yet, but I plan on doing so in the future.
Nuclearstomp 12 Jul, 2022 @ 3:19am 
Addendum to last point: We were playing on a custom server so that might've affected item spawn rates, but I do feel like upgrade packs and throwables spawn too often. Might have to replay it on Expert to get a better feel of how often they spawn.
< >
Showing 1-8 of 8 comments
Per page: 1530 50