Sid Meier's Civilization V

Sid Meier's Civilization V

SMAN's The Ancient World at War
S-Man  [developer] 12 Mar, 2021 @ 3:11pm
Testing Objectives - What are the Kinds of Things I am Requesting from Players:
Note: the Ancient World at War (AWAW) is in BETA status (V0.0). It has been extensively tested and seems quite stable. However, there is still a need for further testing to improve the overall quality of the mod. The focus of testing will primarily be looking at all things balance-related. With a mod that adds so much content to the game, ensuring that things appear about when they should and how they should will take the eyes of a lot of players.


As you’re playing the mod, any feedback you can supply is greatly appreciated. I’m looking for both bug reporting and suggestions. There are no bad suggestions, so please feel free to add anything that you’d like to see in the next version. As the mod is still BETA, don’t be surprised if you see a few hotfixes (for game-crashing bugs) or even a V0.x, if there is a need.


Here are the two links you should use to report issues with the mod:

Reporting a bug: https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/workshop/filedetails/discussion/2422701461/4164113537233770959/

Making a suggestion: https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/workshop/filedetails/discussion/2422701461/4164113537233772796/


The AWAW collaboration space is also a good way to exchange information or find out more about the design of the mod. It is located here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/smans-the-ancient-world-at-war-awaw.664974/



Testing Areas of Focus. These are the areas I’m most interested in:

1. Technologies: Are there too many new techs? Should some appear in different places on the Tech Tree? Are their bonuses correct? Should units/buildings, etc. have different prerequisite techs?


2. The Enlightenment Era: How do you like the new EE? I used that famous mod of the same name as a starting point, but I always felt that it was a bit “undercooked.” Did my additions burn it to a crisp? Are the “right” units/techs/buildings, etc., in the new Era? Should anything be moved in or out?


3. Units: Are the units appearing when they should, with the stats they should have? Do they have the right resource requirements? Promotions? Should any of the models be exchanged between units? Did the changes to Naval Melee ships (heavy city attack penalty, but now all can capture ships) break naval warfare?


4. Buildings: Are there too many buildings? Should any be removed? Added? Appear at different times on the Tech Tree? Do they have the right resource requirements? Should any of their bonuses be adjusted? Should there be a limit to the number that can appear?


5. Wonders: Same questions as #2, except for the limits to the numbers that can appear.


6. Resources: Are there too many new ones? Should any be dropped? Should they be/not be required to make certain buildings or units? Are the large numbers of units requiring strategic resources (primarily the “Late Era” versions) breaking the game? How is Gunpowder working out? I’m very interested in finding ways to “consume” the new resources, so they do more than just sit there and add a bit of happiness.

==> As Kaela mentions below, there is a primitive "crafting" system in the mod, where you use some resources to create new ones (e.g. Gunpowder). I'm very interested in finding new ways to combine resources to create other ones. If anyone has any suggestions on how to expand this capability I really, really, really want to hear them! This is a priority with me, and I think it can make the game even cooler!


7. Improvements: Are there too many of these as well? Any you really like/hate? Do you know of any other Improvements available in other mods that you’d like to see in AWAW? How is the change to who can build them working out? Some of the “builders” were selected due to limitations to how the “work rate” value for each unit is used. A unit type can only have 1 work rate. So, if I want the Great Prophet to build Abbeys, unless it is instantly built (like the Holy Site), then changing his work rate means that building Holy Sites will take time as well. And as the game isn’t designed for this (especially in all thing related to Religion, which tends to be hard-coded and unchangeable), it’s a great way to introduce instability into the mod.


8. Religions: I really don’t want to add too many more to the mod, as I really was only interested in adding belief systems used in the early Classical Era (and before) to add a bit more realism to a mod that focuses very closely on that time-frame. However, I wouldn’t mind adding any new Beliefs, if you have any you’d like to see. Also, if you can think of any changes to the beliefs already in the game – or any bonuses they should provide, please report it.


9. Game Features: Things I’m curious about:

a. Happiness: Happiness from Luxuries was nerfed to 2 per, down from 4. Are you having trouble maintaining Happiness?

b. Many of the adjustments made for The World at War mod were brought over into AWAW. Are there any of those things that should have been left out, adjusted, etc.?

c. AI Civ performance: several adjustments were made to make the AI harder to beat, especially if that civ is in the bottom half of the score table. Most of these adjustments are free culture, gold golden age points, and research every few turns. Did these adjustments go too far? Not far enough?


10. General:
a. Typos, typos, typoes… There are probably dozens if not hundreds out there. If you see anything incorrect, or poorly-worded Civilopedia entries, Help entries, etc., please report those as well.

b. Timing: I spend a LOT of time reworking the settings that govern the “Date” that appears in the top of the screen. While I don’t expect them to be perfect, if there’s a game speed that seems quite broken, please let me know what the game speed you were playing, and about what year/Era you were in when you first noticed the problem. Getting these right is extremely tricky (and painful!).

c. Overall “feelings” about balance between all the game systems. Is something in the mod simply breaking the game?

d. Scenarios: the planned/potential Scenarios are found in Post # 12 at the collaboration space: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/smans-the-ancient-world-at-war-awaw.664974/ Are there any that you’d like to see that aren’t there?

e. Perhaps the most important question about all testing: Is the mod FUN to play? All of these new content additions make the game more complicated – learning the new stuff plus balancing all the competing interests – but does that raise or lower the amount of fun you’re having playing Civ5.
Last edited by S-Man; 17 Mar, 2021 @ 2:01pm
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Showing 1-2 of 2 comments
Kaela 12 Mar, 2021 @ 6:56pm 
First of all sorry for the sometime weird english and all the typos.
After finishing my first game on quick and difficulty prince ( using AWAW, WAW ( unique units/modern improvements/militia ), The Monarchs, IGE and info addict ) I can give some first toughts but I'll definitly have to play a few more games before fully exploring the mod, it is huge and quite overwhelming, especially on quick speed, I usually play only on this speed but I think the mod is way more enjoyable at a slower pace.

1 The new techs are really good and even if at first it is a little confusing ( writing from fishing and animal husbandry instead of pottery initialy ) I think it will be better with time and I can already see some tech beelining strategies

2 The enlightement era does not appear to me and instead merge with the rennaissance era --- ( else i don't have any clear feedback right now, they will come with time, same thing for all the points i ll awnser btw, and I will also probably gives some multiplayer feedbacks if needed )

3 Units are really well done and the AI seems to take full advantages of them ( except in naval battle where i didnt see any melee boats used by the AI in order to take cities ) the uniques abilities of some units like the throwing attack really make you think twice about your army composition but I still need to discover a lot of the units. Also the arbalest in particular with 3 ( 4 ? ) seemed a bit broken on the paper, maybe giving it a malus against certain type of unit if it isnt already the case for being able to shoot thru two layers of two units per case

4 There are a lot of building to play with and it fells really overwhelming on quick speed as you just can't build them all fast enough, but it might be way better on slower speed. I usually play with the 256 and 128 wonders packs so fat stock of buildings are not a problem to me, the two big critics I have tho are :
-Some of the buildings feels really underwhelming compared to other, sometime for the same gold cost and not so far from each others in the tech tree, I'll have to make a doc to take note about the few buildings that could need a buff or nerf with time
-I dontt feel like a lot of the buildings are taking full advantages of the enormous amount of ressources added by the mod, a lot of them only concerns the vanilla ressources, wich are becoming quite rare, maybe reducing some of the bonuses and applying them to more ressources could be a good idea, also the building captions might just be wrong/missleading

one last thing, I noticed some of the buildings needs manuscript, but I can't find a way to produce it appart from one wonder, tho after checking it might be because the ressource requires goats, and if I remember well you said you removed them for the broken models on the civfanatic modpage

5 Like buildings, I can't give an awnser on if there are too many of them since i just play tall all the time, they are really good and diversified, oh and yes same thing at point 4, some of the wonders could include their bonus to the modded ressources like for the Skara Brae

6 I can't really tell now, I had a lot of fun discovering the ressources and I need to play a bit more with the "craft" system wich is really interesting, maybe there are a bit too much of them and could be more scarces, maybe ( if it is possible in modding ) creating a pool of ressources that are not needed in any building and such, that could just not appear in one game then do in another, or I'll to play with scarces ressources for the next games, the only problem that it gave me was with automatic builders acting a bit lost on what ressources are the most urgent to improve and just having space for comercial town, I havent been able to place one and see the evolving process take place yet, one last things I noticed, rice, maize and such don't receive bonuses from farms ? or did I needed a certain tech, the only ones I had were on floodplain deserts tho maybe its that

7 It took me time to notice that some improvement were only buildable by great engineers and im loving this mechanic of having not only one building unit for everything, I didnt ran into any issue as of now, I ll keep searching

8 The new "+1% gold/food per believer" belief is such a welcome addition tho I ll need to test it out some combinations that might be broken especially with tall civs like india that I fear, with all the new food oriented buildings, improvments, ressources and the food processing city project, can make them just explode in population really early game
The diversity in the new religions was also refreashing, I really liked seeing druidism and emperial cult and the AI are using them as well as what seems to be their historical religion ( saw the japaneses using the koshinto )

9
- Hapiness is fine with the current state, even tho I was sometime on the thin line but it was mostly because I found myself with absurd levels of food early game with 6 cities ( 45 food in my capital in the middle of classical era ) and because auto workers were not going for the luxuries as a priority ( I really should stop using them ) after that I managed to stay at 15/25 hapiness for the rest of the game, the AI struggled a bit more tho and was often penalized in wars by their lack of hapiness ( need to play more game to confirm it is not just an unlucky AI )

- The unit staging mechanic is still something I truly love from the WAW mod and really encourage composing your armies smarter in accordance with what comes next in the tech tree and if your economy can support it, I dont notice anything wrong as of now

- The AI really is stronger than before in wars, I'm not really good at combat I build workers not soldiers but I really struggled just to keep my territory, I didnt had such a problem in the WAW mod since at the point of industrial revolution wars were for a lot of them just WW1 style stack of death on several layers and who has the best industry to keep it that way for the longer ( not a critic I truly love it ) . I ll need to test with other difficulties but the challenge is now there and that was fun to try to overthrow the AI ( i lost then resigned to a cultural victory )

10
- I'm not the best person to speak up about typos so I'll pass on this one

- I didnt paid much attention but I sure will for the next games

- same thing

- I'll definitly recreate an "Asterix and the gift of Cesar" scenario with some friends on multiplayer but else I have no idea as of now, I'm really hyped for the punic wars and the conquest of germania scenarios tho, maybe some scenarios based on the chinese early civil wars, or something based in Africa like the Ethiopan-Adal war ?

- YES it was totally worth the wait the amount of work and love in your mod is stunning and I had a lot of fun all the way thru, despite some of the issues I stumbled uppon I'm it has a lot of replayability, this is a totally objective opinion and might differ from people to people, I mod civ in the first place because the added content and mechanics on top of the base game is fun and this mod truly brings a ton of it

I'll keep editing ( can I on steam ? ) my feedbacks as I keep testing around with the mod, thanks for reading my painful english and have a good day
S-Man  [developer] 13 Mar, 2021 @ 7:47am 
@Kaela - thanks for your input - it is most appreciated!

I'm not surprised what you're saying about Quick game speed. The mod is really structured around EPIC, and to a lesser extend Marathon. While it's possible to play at the 2 faster speeds, there won't be a lot of time to experience any one aspect of a tech, unit, etc., as they'll fly by every few turns, sometimes even faster.

1. The relationship between techs isn't 100% logical. It simply isn't possible to do this, especially after adding 62. Even in BNW, it wasn't completely perfect (e.g. Archery to the Wheel? Horseback Riding to Civil Service? Plastics to Atomic Theory, etc....). I tried to get them close, but the primary criterion on the Tech Tree design was to create a "web" of techs, that tied techs together (2+ in, 1-2 out) to slow down tech beelining - to make it harder to ignore large parts of the tree to get to a particular tech that provided some great advantage over foes. The current design isn't perfect, but it does make beelining harder to do.


2. This error is caused by the Irregular Units mod. Something in that mod doesn't anticipate any variation in the number of Eras in the game after WAW adjusts them. I'm hoping the error on the Tech Tree is purely cosmetic and the game is stable, even with the error. I'll look at Irregular Units soon and put out a hot fix to address this issue.


3. Odd that you mention the lack of Naval Melee units. I've noticed this in testing too. I'll raise the flavors of these boats, so that hopefully the AI will use them more often. I'm expecting a major re-release in the next 2-4 weeks, after I've collected enough feedback on things to fix/change. If something is game-breaking, I'll put out a quick hotfix and try to include quick/easy changes like this one. Otherwise, I'll have to add a function that spawns "free" NavMelee ships for the AI, just so they'll vary up the composition of their fleets.

I wasn't completely sure what you were saying about the Arbalest. I know it has a +1 to range, so it can shoot 3 tiles, like the English Longbow. What is a "malus?"


4. The building number is discussed here (Point #2): https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/workshop/filedetails/discussion/2422701461/6303323544996027859/

Hopefully that will explain some of the reason the buildings are structured the way they are.

If you go to the Collaboration Site, on Post #5, there is a complete breakdown on the building. It's already completed in spreadsheet format, so don't waste any time re-creating the wheel.

In fact, the Collaboration Site has most of the information needed about the mod, but in a much more concise format than the pictures in the Description tab. The charts a slightly out of date, but probably about 98% accurate. I'll post final updates sometime this morning.

About "consuming" resources: I couldn't agree more. I put a lot of resource prerequisites for both buildings and units, but there is room for more consumption, I believe. Any suggestions about how to use these resources is appreciated. However, one factor to consider: Luxury resources now only provide +2 Happiness, instead of 4. So, if we use up too many resources, I may have to bump Happiness to +3 or so.

On Manuscripts: The Classical Scriptorum creates 1, but there is a build limit of 4 per civ. The Chatres Cathedral World Wonder creates 2. So, at best you can organically create 6 (but in most cases we're talking 4 per civ, times how many civs in the game for the total in the world). To get more, you'll have to trade with other civs. This resource demonstrates the design criterion of having to make tough choices on what to construct, based on limited resources.

Manuscripts no longer require a nearby worked Goat tile, but the city must have either Cow, Horse, Sheep, or Hardwood nearby to build the Scriptorum. Not easy, but shouldn't be impossible.

If you have any suggestions (e.g. make the Scriptorum produce 2, or raise the build limit from 4 to X, etc.), please let me know. I think I mentioned this in the second sentence in the OP: Getting the "balance" right (like having the right number of Manuscripts available), is one of the things I'm most interested in hearing about from people playing/testing the mod. It's the hardest thing for a single tester (aka me) to determine, but if a bunch of people playing the mod can come up with data that I could never accomplish in a year's time.


6. Changing what resources appear isn't difficult, but coming up with the rules that decide which appear and when would take some refinement. I'm not 100% sure I understand why this is a benefit to the mod?

The mod (as WAW did) changes the numbers of the game's normal strategic resources, so that sometimes really large amounts can be found in a single tile. This creates some rather interesting rich areas of strategic resources which often change Grand Campaign Plans and the direction of city building or conquest.

Workers decide what improvements to build solely on the amount of the Yield that improvement provides. If the AI decides to build an improvement, it then looks at what yields it needs the mods (e.g. if the AI civ is producing negative gold per turn, it would look for an improvement that produces gold, and select the improvement that produces the mod). So, there is some rationale about how it selects.

The Trading Post will "evolve" to the next higher level in about 1.5+ Eras. So, if you create a Trading Post at the start of the Classical Era, it has the chance to evolve to the Hamlet about the middle of the Medieval Era. But, please note this is random within the game's core (not moddable). So, that 1.5 Era time-frame is the MINIMUM about of time to evolve to the next level - it is often longer than 1.5, much longer. I've seen a lot of Trading Posts remaining Trading Posts through out the entire game, while I've also noticed Trading Posts build nearby at the same time make it all the way to Towns just a few Eras later.

You're absolutely right about any of the Resources adding any yields to improvements. The code is in the mod, but it is commented out. I coded it in when creating the mod, but removed it during the adding of other items (because I'd removed most of the new resources, so the mod would rebuild faster). When I added the Resources back into the mod at the very end, for some reason, the improvement yield increases wasn't uncommented... X^( It's on the list. Great catch!


8. I'm very curious what you see in testing games with India. There are a lot of food bonuses, and this might be the best chance to see if they should be nerfed and by how much.


9. As I mentioned previously, I'm concerned about Happiness, as well. Especially for the AI. I've added functions in the LUA part of the mod that makes sure they have a chance to produce Research, even if they normally wouldn't. If they fall behind the other civs a lot in tech, they can sometimes even get free Great Scientists to help push them a long. There are similar boosts to gold, culture, faith, and golden age points for AI, especially if they are in the bottom half of the score table. This is an "adaptive difficulty" level for the AI, to help keeping poorly-performing AI civs in the game. AI civs can even get free strategic resources if they are far behind.

But one thing these bonuses don't address is Happiness. I'll review the logs on my test games more closely - it has a report every 5 game turns that provides a lot of stats on how each civ is performing. You can see it too, in the "Lua.log" file in the Logs folder, usually located here:

C:\Users\user\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\Logs

Where "user" is the account under which you installed Civ5

If you're having more difficulty at combat with AI civs, it has a lot to do with what is mentioned above. They upgrade their units much more often (even if they really can't afford to), they have more bonuses and resources. They don't play any smarter, but they get a lot of "free help" from Ares to make them a harder opponent.


10. On typos: heck, we all make them, but the more pairs of eyes are looking at it, the better chance of someone seeing errors.

Asterix? My sons loved those! May have to complete a scenario just for nostalgia alone!

The Euro/Med-centricity of the mod is a problem, I'll admit. Just outside my realm of knowledge. Eventually I'll take a look at addressing this. One of my collaborators suggested a Three Kingdoms scenario, which will be the start of fixing the problem.

Thanks for the compliment - I put a lot of extra time on the mod to try and make it look good, play well, and be a nice, fun extension of the game. I personally think it's beautiful. I'm starting to believe this mod will have more possibilities of growing (scenarios primarily) than WAW did. Most players are probably much more interested in running the Second Punic War scenario than they are the Yom Kippur War...

Anyways, thanks for the feedback. It is most helpful!


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