I like steel. Try copper. ;)

I also like the effect of weight, and have to put 2 or 3 locomotives in front of a steel train, and still it's running slow.

The cargo shipping price would indeed be interesting, with the use of cooling cars more expensive then open flatbed, or express cargo (mail, food,...) more expensive then slow goods (sand, ore,...).

I'm thinking about using cargo weights as kind of a cargo profitability modifier. Because we don't have actual modifier and cargo weight can have a big impact on profit (like with vanilla passengers), we can make it so the closer cargo is to the start of the production chain, the heavier it is, and thus the less profit you can make from it (more locomotives means more maintenance costs, much less profit). So like crude oil, logs, all types of ore, sand, etc. will all have high weight, while intermediate goods like steel - less weight and finished goods - even less weight.

Not realistic? Yes, but might make more sense for economics aspect :)

Personally I think it would be counter-intuitive. It would be strange to see feather light long steel trains, and extremely heavy short postal express trains. The relation with a "ticket price" is not evident, and would introduce more frustration and questions than fun. But that's just my intuition telling me.

A special setup for special autistic players?
Minority preference?

Originally posted by Yeol:

Personally I think it would be counter-intuitive. It would be strange to see feather light long steel trains, and extremely heavy short postal express trains. The relation with a "ticket price" is not evident, and would introduce more frustration and questions than fun. But that's just my intuition telling me.

- I was thinking more about vanilla cargo types, where all primary cargo is heavy. For mail in your mod, if I understand correctly, it needs towns to receive goods first. So it can be considered to be high above in the supply chain and thus still keep it's low weight.

- I'm not sure about counter-intuitive. Personally when playing I always assumed cargo numbers already represented weight in themselves, so equal weights in base game didn't bother me as much. But in the long term, you will see lighter cargo lines always more profitable, creating even more incentive to have completed supply chains.


Even looking at the model of full steel wagon - it's only filled like 1/3 of total volume. So even visually steel cargo having 8 times the average weight doesn't make too much sense to me.

Originally posted by phobos2077:

Even looking at the model of full steel wagon - it's only filled like 1/3 of total volume. So even visually steel cargo having 8 times the average weight doesn't make too much sense to me.

You can try my mod for good:

Short description:

The amount of passengers in a vehicle is calculated by counting the real passenger seats and standing places which are not for the crew.
If you use the passenger multiplier of 4 (default, because counting the seats would not make sense otherwise) set the game difficulty to at least medium or even hard - or it's too easy because you will earn hundreds of millions with a few trains.

Additionally the cargo capacities are optionally multiplied with 2 and optionally the loading speeds are adjusted accordingly.

This mod must be loaded after all vehicle mods.

It must be loaded after "Yeol's Senseless Industries" if present.
When the mod "Yeol's Senseless Industries" is found and loaded the cargo capacities are optionally adjusted accordingly.


Google Docs spreadsheet to calculate the correct amount of needed vehicles with "Yeol's Senseless Industries" and yeolheavy = false:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bzwMVf66_NfjaAQ09uZnlNziwzIlVsq0YU0Osn9UCok/edit?usp=sharing

or use the included gordondry_cargo_capacity_with_yeolheavy_false.ods

Outdated, cannot update because of cancel culture - v1.112:
https://www.transportfever.net/filebase/index.php?entry/5580-passagiere-sitze-güter-multiplikator-passengers-seats-cargo-multiplier

Up-to-date, via Dropbox - as I own the game via GOG and cannot upload here on Steam - v1.119:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nyl2d3ta8gqqnye/gordondry_passenger_capacity_equals_real_passenger_count_1.7z?dl=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/utzo1z6qhmnkd9a

This is a link to a text file with the changelog, you can check it to see if there is an update available as well:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/utzo1z6qhmnkd9a/gordondry_passenger_capacity_equals_real_passenger_count_1.txt?dl=0

It seems we have different play styles, that's it. I want economy to be a stronger factor. You want more visual realism. Classical tycoon vs model train set division of the player base. So please don't "cancel" the other group just because you prefer a different play style.


For me mods that make passengers take all seats in vehicles don't make sense because I'm fine with 1/4 ratio built into the game. Using realistic numbers of people on the map just won't work for the kind of transport management gameplay I prefer.

I think I've found the source[www.aqua-calc.com] where Yeol got these weight numbers. Basically the argument comes to what do you consider as one unit of cargo. Based on commonly used models of cargo units, it's 1 cubic meter. So in theory, from realism standpoint it is correct to use 7900kg as a weight of 1 cubic meter of steel. However, I can give 3 counter-arguments to this:

1. https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2810025459
Materials have gaps, as you can see in this screenshot (steel and planks). So based on this alone, the 7900 number is already wrong.

2. Because cargo is often measured in weight, you can say that one unit being visually represented as 1m3 cube is just a game abstraction and actual unit is weight. This is reinforced by the fact that vanilla game has equal weight for all cargo types. Passengers are exception because each one is represented by one character model.

3. Striving for 100% realistic values is not necessary in a game like this, at least not for all players. I agree with Yeol that intuitiveness is important (especially for immersion). But there is a middle ground between pedantic realism and gameplay balance.

I believe this balance worth it to be pursued.

PS: 30-capacity truck with top speed of 100km/h loaded with steel struggles to speed up beyond 30km/h on level road... this doesn't feel right at all. You can't "add more engines" to trucks, sadly. Yes, you can set up the line for them to go half-empty, but this is a kludge. Feels like weights shouldn't go beyond 3-4t when using vanilla vehicles.

To 1.
as I suggested different cargo weights to Yeol back in the days - yes it was my fault - I mentioned gaps to some intend
To 2.
my mod only fiddles with the internal capacities, the visual cargo animation stays the same
To 3.
of course, but I don't like those long but lightweight trains accelerating like sports cars

Originally posted by GordonDry:

To 3.
of course, but I don't like those long but lightweight trains accelerating like sports cars

I don't understand why we need to argue about extremes. There's always a balance to be found :)

Another interesting find:
Copper production: 1x Copper Ore + 1x Coal => 2x Copper

Now the fun part, 1 unit of copper = 8900kg, 1 unit of copper ore = 2400. So somehow we gain several times the mass during production... weird.

PS: the same with Iron Ore. In vanilla it takes 2 ore + 2 coal to make 1 steel.

Yeah, a good find. The weights could be taken into account regarding the input/output ratio of those heavy industries.
@Yeol

Studying the supply chains of this mod I realize my original idea of differentiating "primary" and "secondary" cargo won't work because of the complexity of these chains. I kinda see how this mod transforms the game from puzzle-like to be more chaotic but life-like logic. I like this.

Also having different weights for cargos adds even more chaos (read: variety) which is good. In vanilla you can use the exact same ratio of cars/locomotives etc. and different cargo types become just icons, not having any meaningful distinction beyond their position in a 3-step production ladder.

Regarding the economic aspect, I guess just thinking about cargo weights will be a strategy for good early game lines... And later you still want to grow cities, so you'll have to complete every chain in order to satisfy every demand. Those weight differences should average out. Some lines will be more profitable, others will not break profit at all, similar to how many road lines work economically in vanilla.

So probably what I'll do is just tweak some numbers to make sure vanilla vehicles in all eras can reasonably work with them. Either that or just reset everything to 1200kg like in vanilla...

I'm just testing different production ratios in several industries in my edit pack, taking cargo weights into account.
But I do not upload it for now.

I mean this edit pack:
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/workshop/filedetails/discussion/2799634962/3271311587269153940/

So based on values from Yeol, some density figures online and my drive for simplicity & balance, I came up with these numbers: https://pastebin.com/cG9tBe3m

As you can see, I partly followed my original idea. Cargoes try to follow this general trend, where it doesn't conflict with player's expectation. All weights are additionally rounded to 300kg, 1/4 of default 1200kg - for simpler math. Some cargoes I've made heavier. Final goods delivered to cities I've tried to make lighter or at least not heavier than source materials. This is the opposite of Yeol's approach where for some reason final goods were usually the heaviest.

I also changed the ratio for Copper Mill. Currently I'm using modifiers and postRunFn to surgically tweak stuff w/o actually copying any Senseless files. So it should be very easy to support new versions.

Now thinking about maybe disabling some industries and cargo types for my game. Vanilla industries are sure boring, but maybe 60 cargo types is a bit much?

This mod is such a great contribution, it has a plenty of very logical industry types, it's much easier now to tune/remove what you don't want. I don't know if I would add anything :)