Age of Wonders III

Age of Wonders III

Ayalin_Premium_Empire_Building
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Ayalin  [developer] 25 Sep, 2022 @ 1:58am
Harmonising already produced units with MCU conquered
So the goal here is to discuss the best way to achieve the following :
- It's always a bit meh to have units not having some MCU upgrades while others do because they were produced before any MCU was unlocked. Generally speaking, you are stuck between losing a high level of experience on a unit that you had since the beginning versus losing the MCU upgrade.
- It can also be frustrating to wait to create certain units because you want to have a certain MCU unlocked first. So you delay your troop production just for that but then you become vulnerable to attacks.
- If there was a way to get back, with a decent amount of balancing limitations, newly MCU abilities unlocked to older units it would feel good for everyone- no more head scratching about the timing of troop creation, better game flow, etc.

Solutions considered :
1) Adding a "visit site effect" to all MCU structures of the game, giving permanently to visiting troops the ability that the MCU provides once it's built in the city, with some sort of weekly timer (7ish turn cooldown)
2) Similar to 1), The MCU built in the city also provides to builders produced a new ability, to be able to create some sort of training camp structure which would provide to visiting units the ability (with a turn timer as well).

[!] Issue identified- I investigated this solution, and there is one big problem: you cannot apply a requisite filter on abilites given by visiting sites. It means for example, in the case of Ancient Ruins, that all units in the stack regardless of being pikeman or not would get the "Pillar of the stylites" ability. That's a big deal obviously.

3) Adding a spell as a reward from clearing the structure which could be either a global enchantment spell or a target-army instant spell, which once casted would apply the property of the MCU to all appropriate units.

[!] The easiest to do by far, and the issue is more about the balancing implications of this- does it sound fair to be able to apply to your entire army a powerful ability just after clearing the structure? It means you neither need to have it in your domain nor to build the MCU in a city to benefit from the upgrade. It could be a bit balanced by applying a high mana cost, but still.

4) Adding a new Hero item as a reward for each MCU, which does not take away any equipment slot, which provides to all units in the army of the hero said ability.

[!] Would work too, require some investigation nonetheless.
Last edited by Ayalin; 25 Sep, 2022 @ 2:03am
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Showing 1-4 of 4 comments
BladeofSharpness 25 Sep, 2022 @ 6:43am 
I would say that any solution which bypasses unit filtering is a no-go. So (1) and (2) are out of the equation for me.

(3) has some definitive merits. With proper balancing, the spell unlocked can be seen as a possible, yet not-that-commonly used option. Churning numbers now. You can take for granted that several units would be concentrated before casting the spell. Let's say 5 on average. You can also consider that the most experienced and higher tiers units will be favored. So these 2 factors are to be taken into account when factoring in the cost. On the other hand, concentrating on dispersed units is no small task. It means many turns where they are not available. Casting power is also a precious resource. So 2 negatives, 2 'positives' (aka significant efforts/costs).

That factored in, what would be an honest cost for say an averagely powerful MCU. Not top tier, but not weak either. What I would pay for 5 experienced units gaining it? Probably 40 mana per unit. Time 5, a casting cost of 200. At least. I would even go up to 300 for very important units. It definitely means that if you can, you produce MCU-enhanced units the regular way. When you could not (they were produced before, you were in hurry), then at some point you'll spend 200 to 300 casting power (and accompanying mana) to bring back to standard some units.
I think that would be fair, because costly.

(4) I feel this is a poor man solution :-) It pretends to do the job, but you know the units are not really upgraded. Plus many units would never get this special treatment, as they would not be with a hero, or not with a hero with the right item. I dislike it too, even if my feeling is more 'diffuse' about it. It seems inelegant, almost a hack.

I thought about the issue and I see no extra retroactive solution. I would have favored an MCU site unlocking a new (rather costly) building/ city enchantment that provides the MCU benefit to units passing to the city, but I guess it would not work?
Ayalin  [developer] 25 Sep, 2022 @ 7:04am 
I quite agree with you overall, the more I think about it, the more I am like "yeah with high casting points /high mana cost" it's not broken and it's still much better to produce with the MCU unlocked. 200 seems a bit hard maybe, but it's just finetuning.
Regarding the hero item, to be fair the idea does not prevent the other to be made too. It can be another quick win after all.

A few points moving forward :
- The spell could be given when exploring the ruins, but what about some structures sites already giving some secret spells? If it's just added in the mix, chances to get it are fairly low. And I am relatively sure you cannot have one spell garanteed and a second one being randomized from a pool.
- Following the point above, I would actually not feel too bad in general if you are not garanteed to get said spell every time you explore an MCU. To be totally honest, I was already thinking about making a big rework of all adventure sets rewards and also all defenders & spawners type of monsters.

To elaborate on the adventure set mod I was thinking of :
- I wanted to create some new units whose purpose would be to be only neutral and/or defenders and/or spawners, and setup special rewards for them, including secret units and new secret spells. The mod would require all my previous mods so that I can recycle a lot of stuff & abilities from my previous work.
- I wanted to make every MCU/treasure sites of the game to give at the same time one secret spell and one "secret" unit every time you clear one, and multiply the amount of adventure sets within each MCU. The idea is- said units and spells could only be acquired by clearing a structure site, no other way.
- Talking of the different new sets of secret units I was thinking of :
- Ogre thematic, with addition of ogre-mage for example
- Arachnea cultists, all focused around the spider thematic
And so on and so on... those different theme could be living/coexisting in the different MCU of the game, and would give you one unit from their roster and one secret spell linked to their thematic. On top of ALL of that, a secret spell giving the ability MCU could be added in the mix and could be obtainable whatever the set you have encountered in the MCU (like : you only get arachnea spells & units by facing Arachnea defenders, but you can always get the MCU spell of a given structure whatever the thematic of its defenders.

A lot of food for thought in the end.
BladeofSharpness 26 Sep, 2022 @ 7:15am 
It looks good to me and your adventure mod is of certain appeal! A caveat though Chivalrous Intentions mod already has all the units you cite, so perhaps you can liaise with it to not reinvent the wheel (and make many of us have 2 "versions" of the same unit).
Ayalin  [developer] 26 Sep, 2022 @ 8:16am 
Yes, that's a good point. I don't want to reinvent the wheel like you said and chivalrous offers a pretty impressive amount of new units, so I will have to investigate how chivalrous affect adventure set. I am anticipating that chivalrous affects defending units sets without really modifying the reward data, which makes me sad in a way, because what I was finding "cool" is to have thematic groups of defenders with each of them offering special rewards linked to their theme.
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