RimWorld

RimWorld

Vanilla Psycasts Expanded
Mur 7 Aug, 2022 @ 9:27am
Vanilla Psycasts Extended vs Rimworld of Magic
I wanted to post a mini review / feedback from my experience with a comparison between Vanilla Psycasts Extended (VPE) and Rimworld of Magic (ROM) which is another mod that adds magic to the game.

==Vanilla Psycasts Extended==
VPE adds a lot more utility, flexibility and choice to psycasting to the game and it is a much welcome fix to the poor implication of the DLC.

Pros
- The ability to unlock and expand other trees is a vast improvement on the original system, making your character a jack of all trades
-Access to unlock different focuses means that you have a lot more choices about character setup and pawn utility
-Anyone with a Psylink neuroformer can be a psycaster and they are able to be purchased by traders rarely
-Doesn’t add any new techs so you have all content unlocked right away.

Cons
-Meditation is really holding this mod back from being great. Focus is a bar that you can cast out of, it goes down over time and risen by meditating at your focus. This means every day the pawn needs to spend time at the focus and if you cast any skills, you need to spend more time there. Also, what makes this worse is that if your mediation gained is really high and it takes no time to gain it back, they still sit there while being full of focus.
-Due to the mass number of skills / trees that you have access to, your hotbar turns into small little squares that give you information overload. This can be mitigated by playsets, but that is such a manual task that will keep changing as you learn new skills and expand the number of casters in your colony.
-Some skills are super powerful, some are pretty useless

== Rimworld of Magic ==
ROM is a pretty massive mod, it adds a bunch of lower tier techs, 12 magic users, 6 physical type combat classes, gear and a bunch of stuff. The design on spellcasting is more on a few themed skills that you build up as you level instead of having a very wide range of skills. This means that you have less to understand while you invest time to build them up to become really powerful.
Mages cast from a mana bar that very slowly generates, if their bar gets too low then they start getting huge debuffs on their body. Where Physical classes have a bar that regens pretty quickly and are more locked behind timers on recast.

Pros
-Limits who can be a mage / physical class by a trait (makes it less common)
-Mages classes all generally have some kind of utility that is useful as well as offensive skills.
-Physical classes can be a strong frontline which is what core rimworld is missing
-There are strong healer mages that can cure wounds, remove scars, regrow limbs and even bring back the dead. Though they are generally not all on the same class

Cons
-Pawn can be really overpowered at times, going head-to-head with a whole raid and winning
-There is a lot of lower tier techs that are added which can be an issue if you use mods like “tech advancing”
-Fighting against magic users can be devastating to your colony
-There are elemental events which can summon constant attackers that you might not be able to deal with


==Which one?==
Right now, I have to say ROM feels a bit better to play due to mages feeling a lot more useful and less finicky than psycasters. I think what could fix this is reworking mediation, right now if you don’t meditate you lose all ability to do any casting and the higher the bar is the faster it goes down. This is a huge problem because it means that to be able to do anything you need to waste so much time doing nothing.

On top of that, meditation is linked to Solitary relaxation which you can get bored out of, spending more time on it and getting less focus back. Even if you have a full focus bar, you are only getting a very small number of skills off and you have a huge heat bar that is never close to being filled and empties rapidly.

Due to the fact that VPE goes wide with the number of skills instead of tall as ROM does it makes it visually harder to read plus a bit more hectic with understanding and using different skills. I would love to see this changed into focusing deeper on single trees instead of giving us access to all trees to a similar system to ROM. This could make each tree feel more unique and powerful.

Overall VPE is a much-needed expansion over the existing systems and I hope that it keeps getting worked on.
Last edited by Mur; 7 Aug, 2022 @ 9:40am
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Showing 1-8 of 8 comments
Toivoton 7 Aug, 2022 @ 12:32pm 
Interesting to see how we have so different takes on the mods:

I wouldn't mind some other ways to regain psyfocus, but for me the lack of an analogue for meditation felt like a balance problem in ROM - your pawns just passively got stuff without having to spend time or resources to get it. At least psycasters need to spend some time on the throne for it. I do however agree that the heat bar seems pointless atm - I'm still hoping for combat casts to be switched from focus heavy to heat heavy..

It also feels weird to me that you consider the techs (and I assume the stuff unlocked by them?) a drawback: I kinda miss that stuff in VPE, in particular the golems.

And to top it off, I was constantly needing to check how my pawns worked in ROM due to the complicated mechanics where even when I devmoded in a bunch of VPE casters for testing, everything felt self-explanatory and easy to remember. I wouldn't mind _some_ passives or other mechanics, but for me the 'cleanness' of the VPE stuff is a definite strength compared to the 'complex rpg character mechanics' of at least some of the ROM stuff.
Mur 7 Aug, 2022 @ 12:54pm 
Originally posted by Toivoton:
Interesting to see how we have so different takes on the mods:
...

Yeah I like seeing people's point of views.

100% agree that combat skills should be more heat heavy. I just feel that focus should equilibrate to somewhere like the middle, so when you are really low it goes up slowly on its own but you can force it to go higher by meditating though it , This way you choose between spending time getting focus or just using the little casts you have.

I enjoy the golems in ROM but I find that its a huge investment of points to get very little back and delaying getting into the later tech. Also if I use tech advancement I can't pick up later techs because the tech cost is 2-4x the cost for later techs until I pick up some lower tier techs.

I do agree that ROM has a deeper system but having only 4-5 skills on each character makes it no so hard to learn them. Where I can get a new skill on VPE every few days via trade or leveling but they tend be pretty simple...though some of the wording could be more straightforward.
Last edited by Mur; 7 Aug, 2022 @ 12:58pm
RedPine 7 Aug, 2022 @ 1:25pm 
ROM is harder to get into, due to having a much tighter balance. Too tight. Each class has a narrow focus, and only a few places to specialize, with only one or two of those specializations being optimal. The class options didn't feel like they were "mine" to play with, they were more like a quiz on the current meta.

VPE is very easy to get into, but has terribly loose balance (to be fair, this is to be expected on first public release). Each pawn can learn everything. If all my pawns have Farskip and Bolt... you know the saying, "If everyone's special, then nobody is". This is made even worse by Psyring crafting, OP class synergies, and being able to upgrade psystats infinitely.

Don't get me wrong, VPE is awesome, but it's not something I'd use in a "serious" playthrough without an extensive list of self enforced honor rules.




So far my potential list of honor rules includes:

-Don't use Anima Tree Links.
-Don't unlock more than 3 trees per pawn.
-Don't use Psycast Neuroformers.
-Don't craft Psylink Neuroformers. (Questing/looting them is fine.)
-No more than 6 psycasters.
legodude17  [developer] 9 Aug, 2022 @ 6:58am 
Originally posted by RedPine:
-Don't craft Psylink Neuroformers.
Are you using a mod that makes them craftable? They aren't in the base game.
Originally posted by RedPine:
ROM is harder to get into, due to having a much tighter balance.
Really? I've always found ROM to be hideously overpowered, even more so than VPE. Guess it's all just a difference in perspective.
Last edited by legodude17; 9 Aug, 2022 @ 6:59am
RedPine 9 Aug, 2022 @ 7:34am 
Originally posted by legodude17:
Really? I've always found ROM to be hideously overpowered, even more so than VPE. Guess it's all just a difference in perspective.

It depends on how well you know the mod. I don't know the mod well, so I don't pass the "what's the meta" trivia, and don't do well. IIRC you have ~3 stats and ~6 upgradeable abilities to choose from, and will also need good gear/trait combinations.

ROMagic also relies on micro, which I personally don't like or use effectively. I don't remember if it even had autocast back then. Things may have changed, but many of the abilities were too complicated/dangerous to be autocasted safely. I chose abilities based on "what requires the least micro", not "what's stronger in combat".

VPE has a very useable autocast system.

VPE is very modular. When I level up a psycaster, it's a unique combination suited to my playstyle and preferences. It can be OP, but it's very easy to add honor rules that balance things out.

I particularly like that most EXP comes from meditating. That means my psycasters have to live like Xianxia cultivators royalty. Sure, my cultivator psycaster COULD help with chores using supernatural grace... or they could continue closed door cultivation to get stronger. I could spend my next 5 levels on getting Ball Lightning, or I could stack 5 different focus types for faster EXP gain. Let's not forget that many focus types are very expensive and labor intensive!

VPE is revolves around future gains vs immediate returns. With ROM the gains just... happen. Same with jecrell's Vampires. There's no significant cost, you just do the things you're going to do anyway (*cough* Revia *cough*).

(Note: Much of the above breaks down if I spam Anima Tree links and Yeoman Ceremonies, hence the honor rules in my current playthrough.)
legodude17  [developer] 9 Aug, 2022 @ 8:04am 
Originally posted by RedPine:
(Note: Much of the above breaks down if I spam Anima Tree links and Yeoman Ceremonies, hence the honor rules in my current playthrough.)
We're going to lock Natural meditation behind Tribal backstories again in the next update, make it so you can't just grab it with points. And Yeoman Ceremony should only give a single level, no matter how many times you do it. If not, that's a bug.
RedPine 9 Aug, 2022 @ 9:39pm 
Originally posted by legodude17:
Originally posted by RedPine:
(Note: Much of the above breaks down if I spam Anima Tree links and Yeoman Ceremonies, hence the honor rules in my current playthrough.)
We're going to lock Natural meditation behind Tribal backstories again in the next update, make it so you can't just grab it with points. And Yeoman Ceremony should only give a single level, no matter how many times you do it. If not, that's a bug.

Ah, I meant spamming Yeoman to get the first level of psycast on all pawns. Once a pawn has a single level of psycasting from any source, they can cultivate meditate to become stronger than vanilla dames within 1-2 in game years.
Danzen 25 Aug, 2022 @ 11:36am 
Bro, I just use both of them and it's pretty good
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