Mount & Blade: Warband

Mount & Blade: Warband

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Myll 13 Feb, 2023 @ 9:47pm
Situational mod flaws / Quality of LIfe Suggestions
Gents,
The group of you have done some great initial work. Let me offer you some polishing suggestions that are not truly Bugs, but in certain situations, as your Mod is using the construct of the foundational Native game, there could be a mismatch and a tweak may be required, or it's a Quality of Life (QoL) type game issue (and I hope other Mod Players speak up here with these type suggestions also).

- Quests to deliver items across the map, such as to deliver Wine to a Tavern keep. So in Native game, and the smaller-scale map size, you always had enough time at zero Pathfinding skill, to make it from the furthest apart Towns in the game. That is not true on your large map. So you can be offered a 7-day delivery quest and can't effectively make it across the map before quest expiration. Not sure if you play-tested for this one, but I think you should tweak all delivery quests with a play-testing Main Character that is at Pathfinding of zero skill to ensure that even a starting character has enough speed for the time allotted to accomplish the trip across the map. A suggested fix if you are going to standardize all these delivery quests to a single "maximum days" allowed, is to figure out the Minimum time to cross the map from furthest-apart Towns, and then lock that in as the going Quest maximum time to replace the default 7 day limit. Maybe it's 10 days, or something, but it may be a bridge too far to do some Auto-Calc based time allotted based on the game crunching numbers on travel distance and the player's Pathfinding skill, or such -- which would make the Quest's limits dynamic, but could be tough to code, which is why I say to consider just changing to a standard fixed number.

- First Recruiting attempt didn't actually provide the single troop. You should look at the code for a player's first attempt to Recruit, after paying off a village mayor 50 coin to then enable at least one Recruit to be obtained. I had enough coin, paid 50 to the mayor, then he says there is 1 troop willing to join, and I invite to group and coin is paid but upon exiting out of the town, that one troop is not in my group. This was the very first recruiting attempt in the game (quite a loss when you barely have 60-70 coin at start of game). It's these first-time playing, "first look" glitches to especially avoid like the plague.

- Formations should have a Default vs your custom set-up. First off, this is made from the perspective that when one attacks, they don't ask to start from a standstill but are stepping off running toward the enemy but then the player gives commands to form as a unit. I don't think it was wise that for what is normally in Native Game, the rapid process that many of us long-time Native players use, which is the rapid combo F1-F2 Keys (Everyone listen, Everyone follow me), then F2-F3 (Everyone Spread Out). In Native, that normally creates a "Line Formation" to left and right of Main Character, which is arguably the most standard, basic formation in history "Men, Form the Line!!" -- so why undo that Line Formation in the default Native setup? Your default has troops vary in their placement in terms of depth, fore/aft of the Main Character - some far forward of the Main Character, to the point they are literally right in front of the ranged weapons firing line (they're basically stepping straight out ahead of Main Character as if saying, "Please shoot me in the back of the head." I think you should play-test this and tweak the standard F1-F2, F2-F3 formation to restore the Line (formation, that is). I don't mind unique formation orders, but why fix something that isn't broken, specifically regarding the core Line Formation with a spread follow-on? Also, if you compare/contrast your Mod vs Native, note that this entire Line in Native is arrayed perpendicular to the enemy's attack axis, which is another intent of the original game that you should consider preserving.

- Cost mismatches. Fix the cost of Recruits at Villages so that stated cost in Village Elder's dialogue equals actual cost. For example, the Village Elder, after being bribed for 50 coin, is then asked if there are Recruits he could arrange, and his on-screen dialogue says that one troop will cost 10 coin, but after you click the button for the transaction, the game withdraws 30 coin from your account instead.

- Remove all cattle-moving quests (Town-to-Town deliveries of cattle). And you may think I'm joking, but seriously, find a way, any way, to dig into the Native game portion of code to "disable" all Cattle-moving quests given from the Towns' Guild Masters. Simply put - you built an ultra-large scaled map, especially a long axis from Western Europe all the way to the near-East of Asia (and even a portion of the Middle East). You've created an alternate game, now modify the underlying conditions from Native that are "incompatible." In a normal map format Native game, cow-moving is a nearly always "Bypass, no Thanks" quest to refuse. In this Mod? You must be a glutton for punishment to move cows Town to Town in this mod, and you can end up with cattle-moving quest that originate in modern Portugal and are supposed to travel all the way to the Caspian Sea. In real life? Not a single cow would be left alive after that journey. It's illogical, not just un-fun. This may not be an easy task to remove these cow-moving quests from your Mod's game, but I think it will be worth the effort to get all of them out of a Guild Master's random quest queue.
Last edited by Myll; 13 Feb, 2023 @ 10:58pm
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Showing 1-3 of 3 comments
Wlodowiec  [developer] 15 Feb, 2023 @ 1:01pm 
Originally posted by Myll:
Gents,
The group of you have done some great initial work. Let me offer you some polishing suggestions that are not truly Bugs, but in certain situations, as your Mod is using the construct of the foundational Native game, there could be a mismatch and a tweak may be required, or it's a Quality of Life (QoL) type game issue (and I hope other Mod Players speak up here with these type suggestions also).

- Quests to deliver items across the map, such as to deliver Wine to a Tavern keep. So in Native game, and the smaller-scale map size, you always had enough time at zero Pathfinding skill, to make it from the furthest apart Towns in the game. That is not true on your large map. So you can be offered a 7-day delivery quest and can't effectively make it across the map before quest expiration. Not sure if you play-tested for this one, but I think you should tweak all delivery quests with a play-testing Main Character that is at Pathfinding of zero skill to ensure that even a starting character has enough speed for the time allotted to accomplish the trip across the map. A suggested fix if you are going to standardize all these delivery quests to a single "maximum days" allowed, is to figure out the Minimum time to cross the map from furthest-apart Towns, and then lock that in as the going Quest maximum time to replace the default 7 day limit. Maybe it's 10 days, or something, but it may be a bridge too far to do some Auto-Calc based time allotted based on the game crunching numbers on travel distance and the player's Pathfinding skill, or such -- which would make the Quest's limits dynamic, but could be tough to code, which is why I say to consider just changing to a standard fixed number.

- First Recruiting attempt didn't actually provide the single troop. You should look at the code for a player's first attempt to Recruit, after paying off a village mayor 50 coin to then enable at least one Recruit to be obtained. I had enough coin, paid 50 to the mayor, then he says there is 1 troop willing to join, and I invite to group and coin is paid but upon exiting out of the town, that one troop is not in my group. This was the very first recruiting attempt in the game (quite a loss when you barely have 60-70 coin at start of game). It's these first-time playing, "first look" glitches to especially avoid like the plague.

- Formations should have a Default vs your custom set-up. First off, this is made from the perspective that when one attacks, they don't ask to start from a standstill but are stepping off running toward the enemy but then the player gives commands to form as a unit. I don't think it was wise that for what is normally in Native Game, the rapid process that many of us long-time Native players use, which is the rapid combo F1-F2 Keys (Everyone listen, Everyone follow me), then F2-F3 (Everyone Spread Out). In Native, that normally creates a "Line Formation" to left and right of Main Character, which is arguably the most standard, basic formation in history "Men, Form the Line!!" -- so why undo that Line Formation in the default Native setup? Your default has troops vary in their placement in terms of depth, fore/aft of the Main Character - some far forward of the Main Character, to the point they are literally right in front of the ranged weapons firing line (they're basically stepping straight out ahead of Main Character as if saying, "Please shoot me in the back of the head." I think you should play-test this and tweak the standard F1-F2, F2-F3 formation to restore the Line (formation, that is). I don't mind unique formation orders, but why fix something that isn't broken, specifically regarding the core Line Formation with a spread follow-on? Also, if you compare/contrast your Mod vs Native, note that this entire Line in Native is arrayed perpendicular to the enemy's attack axis, which is another intent of the original game that you should consider preserving.

- Cost mismatches. Fix the cost of Recruits at Villages so that stated cost in Village Elder's dialogue equals actual cost. For example, the Village Elder, after being bribed for 50 coin, is then asked if there are Recruits he could arrange, and his on-screen dialogue says that one troop will cost 10 coin, but after you click the button for the transaction, the game withdraws 30 coin from your account instead.

- Remove all cattle-moving quests (Town-to-Town deliveries of cattle). And you may think I'm joking, but seriously, find a way, any way, to dig into the Native game portion of code to "disable" all Cattle-moving quests given from the Towns' Guild Masters. Simply put - you built an ultra-large scaled map, especially a long axis from Western Europe all the way to the near-East of Asia (and even a portion of the Middle East). You've created an alternate game, now modify the underlying conditions from Native that are "incompatible." In a normal map format Native game, cow-moving is a nearly always "Bypass, no Thanks" quest to refuse. In this Mod? You must be a glutton for punishment to move cows Town to Town in this mod, and you can end up with cattle-moving quest that originate in modern Portugal and are supposed to travel all the way to the Caspian Sea. In real life? Not a single cow would be left alive after that journey. It's illogical, not just un-fun. This may not be an easy task to remove these cow-moving quests from your Mod's game, but I think it will be worth the effort to get all of them out of a Guild Master's random quest queue.

Hello! And thank you for taking the time to write this insightful message. I reported all your points to the other devs on Discord, hopefully they'll find some time to read them in the upcoming day. However, from my side, I can already give you some brief answers:

1) You're totally right and we should tweak the number of days required to perform these kind of tasks.

2) I don't exactly get the point in that, this is very common in a lot of other mods. You could simply take it as the village elders being scammy: at the end, if you're at the stage of the game where you're required to beg for village elders to give you volunteers, you might as well be aware that you're an easy target for dishonest folk targeting newcomers like you.

3) Don't get the point of this one either, formations AI are present in every good mod for Warband as of now. To prevent the archers to have footmen in front you just select the archer division and move it in front of your infantry.

4) This is an easy fix, noted.

5) You're not totally wrong on this one, hopefully those kind of quests can be replaced with something more meaningful.
Myll 15 Feb, 2023 @ 7:59pm 
On Number 2, it wasn't that the Elder refused to provide a Recruit, it's that he did offer just one recruit, money changed hands (so I thought), yet no recruit entered the group, but this also ties in to the discrepancy on costs for recruits in text vs what's actually withdrawn. My guess is this - I see on-screen the Elder say "will cost 10 coin" and I think to myself "I have that" so I click, game makes a noise as if coin is exchanged, but actually no Recruit enters my Party because the 10 coin cost is actually 30 coin in reality and thus I don't actually get the Recruit in the Party. So in retrospect, if you fix point #4, then point #2 is also fixed, I would assume.

On Number 3, there is more to this. Play a Native/unmodded game. Go into a Pitched Battle with troops. Do the initial F1-F2, F2-F3 keys (not pressed simultaneously, but you press F1 Key then F2, short pause, then press F2 Key and then F3 Key. If you've never done this before, then - welcome to Battle Management 101 in this game. Look left, look right. You have troops "In Line" as historically stated and portrayed. Press F2 then F3 again - they all spread out the line further, etc. But notice, Not One Troop is forward of you. And do this same thing in any Diplomacy-foundation based Mod - all the same, most all the time, no one messes with these default arrangements. In your Mod, now do it. Notice - you don't have a Line. You have a Mess instead, and you get Troops forward of the Main Character who are literally 10-20 paces in front of you that block your line of sight and line of fire (as if they want to get shot in the back of the head). I'm guessing that one of your Modders didn't like the Default setup (I could teach that person a thing or two about how to shift from the Line to a better formation but then we're talking multiple Key Strokes -- all of which are the same combinations of Keys no matter the Native or normally modded Diplomacy game). So you essentially changed from Default so much, that one is actually LESS prepared for the fight that is coming at you, because now the player is forced to rearrange things, especially in early game where you aren't sure of all your various culture's troops and who's a skirmisher and who's a bowman and do I want this one forward or the other one back on the Line -- again, it's a mess, and I'd revert back to Defaults and let the Player decide (not the Modder decide) on how they want to shift from normal game Defaults from that base line formation setup.
Last edited by Myll; 15 Feb, 2023 @ 8:26pm
Myll 19 Feb, 2023 @ 7:55pm 
New Issue: Training Peasants mission. Two issues with that:
1. The entire Party is not participating. In Native game and any Diplomacy-foundational mod, the player's Party participates up to the "Unit Limit" for spawning the fight on-screen. I had the lowest/default setting slider for this mod, which is 100 units in fights. But when my post-training sequence ended and then the fight against "bandits" begins, only my Companions and Main Character were generated into the Village for the fight, and ZERO troops in my Party spawned into the fight. Something is wrong with this picture and needs to be fixed in this mod for Training Peasants missions in terms of the fight that is generated. Another way this is proven out is that upon looking at my Party, none of my Troops in the Party were wounded at all, yet 100% of Companions were wounded (further proving that no normal line troops had spawned for the village fight).
2. The enemy forces should be looked at for both scale and size in relation to Game Day/timing. I did a Train Peasants mission on Day 40 but the "bandits" generated were all heavily armed footsoldiers that easily ran through 25 Peasants and my Main Character and 8x Companions (all thinly outfitted since it's Game Day 40 or so). Don't get rid of the early game "easy bandits" equivalents of the Native game, for at least 30-40 Game days. One thing the Native game Developers were intending - that the Peasants can help tip the scales to win the fight, if you bring enough people. But it's a bit imbalanced if you can't possibly win the fight unless you bring in what would be the equivalent of a Game Day 200 level force with leveled up Companions and 100% of available Party Members (see Point 1 aforementioned) that are in a much higher level, higher quality and heavily armed state.

Otherwise, these Train Peasants missions are pointless meat grinders until Day 150+ in the game.
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