Thanks for the feedback! Always happy to hear other people's takes.

The coin flip has been... a unique challenge. I might need to tweak how much they are affected by physics/the player momentum, because it's quite a lot in Ultrakill but that can lead to a lot of inconsistency in Yomi. As for them despawning, you would not believe how often I've tweaked the decay on the coins. I'll find a sweetspot eventually.

A lot of the other issues tie into the frame recovery, and this is where the current beta state kinda comes in. The plan is to first incorporate as many of the mechanics as possible to get him "Ultrakill-complete" and then flesh out and tweak the moveset until he feels "Yomi-complete" too. This will almost certainly include speeding up or adding faster options in the close range.

I'm planning on playing a lot more with Style gain, the damage multiplier for Style and the Style decay, so the damage balance will probably change a lot, As for the Staling, this is not actually per weapon but per move in Yomi (one of many concessions) so will hopefully be alleviated as I add more moves.

Regarding the healing, I made the conscious decision to make Blood restore meter rather than health because easy access to healing is a really annoying thing to be playing against. I've batted around the idea of including the healing with Ultrakill's "Hard Damage" mechanic also included, but letting him heal would be very hard to properly balance.

The recovery times on throwing coins and such are currently made to be in line with other setup moves and was done in consideration with people from the Royce's Brackets discord server (The aim is to balance Machine around those tournaments), but are in no way final.

And yes, Railcannon is missing because I just haven't gotten to it yet, just like Rocket Launcher and Whiplash.

Awesome to get a reply already, so here's my reply to the reply to the feedback:

I'll leave the coin momentum thing to you, as I have no idea how to fix that. As for the decay, perhaps the coins don't need to decay on their own, just disappear upon hitting a surface, kinda like it does in Ultrakill? That could be more difficult to balance though, but it's an idea.

Very fair! I look forward to the faster paced style once Machine is Ultrakill Complete. It'll be fun to mess around with!

Ah, the staling makes a LOT more sense now. I might have just missed it in the description, but it was really off lol.

As for the healing, maybe it could cost up to a couple levels of meter then? I'd imagine making it very expensive for a smaller amount of healing, but playing around with that is going to be really difficult I imagine. Definitely probably have it a separate secondary action instead of a primary action on it's own. Kinda like being able to use the Marksman move and then switch weapons for the next turn. The blood is still really difficult to actually collect, but I imagine that'll be tweaked with time.

Ah, fair. I have no knowledge of that stuff, but I feel like with as little damage as even a four coin ricoshot does, the setup for that has such a high recovery time you're getting punished by most modded characters and even a couple of the vanilla ones. That said, I should probably check that discord out so I know what kind of characters Machine is being balanced *for*, cuz I don't think Pray is a good comparison. :skull:

I figured that was a Beta thing.

I look forward to a complete version of this mod! :D

Yeah, even post nerf cowboy can punish hard. :skull:

I did notice the coin bounce doesn't seem to work, unless I'm doing something wrong? >.>

i expected a character from a fast paced shooter game to be..well...fast..but he's fumblingly slow

I just feel like everything is off numbers wise, not enough moves, too few options for the situations that the game requires you to have options for, the damage multiplier starting at 0.8 is so detrimental that you can forget about going above 1x damage, the stun time on the moves are laughably small and result in a frustrating experience to play, I've been trying to get this character to work in so many instances, but where as characters like the base game ones excel one thing with a few solid skill sets in others, this character really doesn't have that kind of attention, and just ends up being really bad feeling, the sound design is great on the other hand, which is why knucklblaster doing little to no stun and having what feels like minimal damage hurts, it feels like combos are cut short by moves that have too much knock-back and too little damage and stun time to capitalize off of, resulting in doing two combos and 2-7 chip damage hits only results in half a characters hp, where as other characters doing two combos and no chip damage hits results in 75%-80% of a characters hp.

Overall, the character feels good mobility wise, and sound wise, however, everything else feels terrible a majority of the time, there are too few options for meaningful decisions, this could be solved by the inclusion of the rest of the weapons, or, making every variant present as part of the weapon switch system for the nailgun, and adding in the railcannon, maybe a few frame tweaks to existing moves to make them more viable in more situations, or just double the unique moves to each weapon

Originally posted by Cuddly_Buddy:

I just feel like everything is off numbers wise, not enough moves, too few options for the situations that the game requires you to have options for, the damage multiplier starting at 0.8 is so detrimental that you can forget about going above 1x damage, the stun time on the moves are laughably small and result in a frustrating experience to play, I've been trying to get this character to work in so many instances, but where as characters like the base game ones excel one thing with a few solid skill sets in others, this character really doesn't have that kind of attention, and just ends up being really bad feeling, the sound design is great on the other hand, which is why knucklblaster doing little to no stun and having what feels like minimal damage hurts, it feels like combos are cut short by moves that have too much knock-back and too little damage and stun time to capitalize off of, resulting in doing two combos and 2-7 chip damage hits only results in half a characters hp, where as other characters doing two combos and no chip damage hits results in 75%-80% of a characters hp.

Overall, the character feels good mobility wise, and sound wise, however, everything else feels terrible a majority of the time, there are too few options for meaningful decisions, this could be solved by the inclusion of the rest of the weapons, or, making every variant present as part of the weapon switch system for the nailgun, and adding in the railcannon, maybe a few frame tweaks to existing moves to make them more viable in more situations, or just double the unique moves to each weapon

I will have to agree: The numbers *hurt*. I've played a couple different Machine matches, and they've *sucked.* Like the dev said, he's more focused on finishing the character's movesets before doing any actual balance on his moves. That aside, feedback is always a good thing I think.

I do think having the guns be a little more freely aimable would be nice.

As someone who only recently started playing YOMI, I see machine as just a little underwhelming comparing to most popular modded characters.
I'll just point out the moments I noticed so far:
Really low combo damage. Even the melees hitstun starting with the whiplash is REALLY not something too great. The Limbus Company character my friends play easily beat me with melee damage in like 2 moves, when I have to use the whiplash->whiplash->low whip->feedbacker->low whip->feedbacker combo to STILL inflict not that great damage, and basically get zero combo out of it just as well. Yes it's easy to get into melee combo, but I feel like it lacks a straightforward option to inflict great damage (yes, sometimes you can land a kneecapper as a combo ender which results in OK damage, but usually enemy's DI makes you waste your combo with so or not land it at all).
Machine REALLY doesn't have any stuns mid or long range. Rockets are exclusively a zoning skill, as landing them on said characters is just impossible. SRS on the other hand is tricky to use, can land, but deals underwhelming damage. Best neutral damaging weapon is Piercer or Metal flood if you're able to land them.
Slab revolver, on the other hand, is something too off with the balance. I get that it's a super, but it deals pretty significant neutral damage, and can be a great combo addittion. I feel like it's a little too strong and I'd better have Marksman and Sharpshooter actually do SOMETHING (both of them are straight useless as far as I tried their everything), than spam Slab revolver out of neutral. If the game's about style I feel like Marksman should be a hitscan rather, and Sharpshooter could use being WAY faster (again, most Limbus characters both shoot down the projectile and then you have to deal with THEIR attack, pretty much wasting frames. All the while Piercer basically doesn't have a counterplay rather than to parry)
Thanks for making the Nailgun have a purpose though. Before the update it was almost a useless gun, now it has a great air dodge. Was one of the concerns that you dealt with just recent.
Might be OP to which I'm oblivious, but I feel like you could use being able to swap guns while not having any options/being stunned. I say this only because all the characters I faced do have some mechanic going on that they can use inside being stunned (change knife direction, perform air dodge once, etc.) This, again, might be OP, but I don't really see how. It's not like your opponent can predict your gun pick or see it before they see your moveset anyway.
Combo is really not that great on machine, however, neutral damage is biig. I really feel it should be backwards, though I have a feeling you nerfed the neutral damage a little in recent update (Piercer feels slightly weaker). Maybe ricoshots could use getting a 7-frame stun or something, as, again, on a character that relies on you doing combos, you never get even the mid-range stun for some reason?..
I can't recall the character, but I remember how I planted a magnet and did whole 2 metal floods to set up the trap, right? And then this character just hyper armors me while INSIDE the trap, WINNING the damage trade, and getting a STUN on me, all the while he barely took any damage from such. I don't think he gets any damage reduction, rather just magnet+metal flood doing WAY underwhelming damage.
All and all, I really like the character, but I feel like you went with the OPPOSITE of what it's supposed to be. No, it shouldn't get stuns for every single attack, but the combo ones really lack it. (Pump+core eject, ricoshot, knuckleblaster is basically zero-punishment stun which doesnt have any reason to even try to land)
Best balanced weapons in my opinion are Shotgun and Piercer at the moment. No reason to even try to land Marksman, Sharpshooter, or to go for a rocket launcher unless you specifically want to rocket ride. Nailgun is tricky, as sometimes could be a hit or miss, but I feel like with the latest update you made it really useful. Haven't gotten to try it too much yet though.
Tl;dr - combos suck, neutral attacks damage is great on the contrary. Make it backwards plz. And could use more stuns for long-range imo, maybe nerfing the damage in return.

Originally posted by МАКС МАКСБЕТОВ:

As someone who only recently started playing YOMI...

First thing
Combo damage, you mentioned it sucked yet your main combo route was just feedbackers, low whips and grapples. Try experimenting in the lab a bit more, Machine rewards mixing up your options with a damage multiplier. You're not meant to have great combo damage if you're comboing at D Rank Style - and you're not gonna build up style if your combo is just repeating low whip and grapple. He's a weird, complex character with weird to use combo tools - that's by design. That being said each update is bringing new tools to the table.

Second
I'm not making marksman hitscan. It's a 4f starting projectile, hitscan would be a nightmare, hitscan projectiles are a balance nono

Third
When you say "no stuns" I hope you mean that his hitstun on his tools is too low and not that you want me to give him full on stun moves.

Originally posted by Vermilingus:

Originally posted by МАКС МАКСБЕТОВ:

As someone who only recently started playing YOMI...

First thing
Combo damage, you mentioned it sucked yet your main combo route was just feedbackers, low whips and grapples. Try experimenting in the lab a bit more, Machine rewards mixing up your options with a damage multiplier. You're not meant to have great combo damage if you're comboing at D Rank Style - and you're not gonna build up style if your combo is just repeating low whip and grapple. He's a weird, complex character with weird to use combo tools - that's by design. That being said each update is bringing new tools to the table.

Second
I'm not making marksman hitscan. It's a 4f starting projectile, hitscan would be a nightmare, hitscan projectiles are a balance nono

Third
When you say "no stuns" I hope you mean that his hitstun on his tools is too low and not that you want me to give him full on stun moves.

Thanks for reply.
As about combos - I only recent started to figure out his very exquisite combos that are nothing obvious at first. I think by now that it's just the skill floor for combos being too high rather than Machine actually not having combos, correcting myself on that. A guide would help but I require nothing from you exactly, just a heads-up.
I usually run around on Anarchic or Brutal in my games. Stacking meter is fairly easy, though getting past SS is too hard, be it by design or not (in Ultrakill it's really not hard).
About the damage - it's only recent I learned the mechanic that significantly reduces your damage the more moves you input in a single stun on your opponent. I won't dare to say it's Machine's character design flaw, but was the entire reason I pointed out this thing. Currently as a combo starter feedbacker/whiplash is great, but as you continue to insert moves into a single stun it becomes very time-consuming for disappointing amounts of damage. Again, figuring out this character is very hard and there aren't guides around, so I'm typing only as I know it. Entering combos is fairly easy on close range but the combo damage is not Machine's strong side anyway, even if you're fairly skilled. And has a high skill floor to add, so I still think this character is more about stylish escape out of scenarios and maybe even counterattacks a little (I say it again that the Slab revolver is a great super, might be even a little TOO great).
So about the marksman: I really don't understand the attack. Like actually I see it having a no upside to resorting to use it and not Piercer. Please tell me if I missed something, but it doesn't pierce projectiles (obviously), deals less damage, flies SLOWER than Piercer (tested a lot), and disappears short-distance. You say it flies out at 4f, which to be fair I haven't got to use as a trap card yet, though it doesn't say at which frame it starts on the move. Sorry I'm new and I'm not sure if it's a bug/WIP missed feature/etc. Still I think it's a little too niche use for something as middlegrounded. I won't throw you new ideas how to buff it, I'm just leaving the feedback that it feels out of place.
Same with sharpshooter. Might be lacking the damage buff on ricocheting off the floor just as well. Even when I'm near walls I won't use it as coins+piercer have a much harder counterplay and more damage for a possible damage trade. Very very hard to use the Sharpshooter too.
And to add, yes, I mean that most his tools have very strict stunlock, making you slip for every mistake in the combo. I'm not saying you should straight up buff it, just pointing out this fact. Some of his stuns are AS strict that you can insert at best just one script on how to insert the max punish. (my most proud one is something like whiplash->whiplash->feedbacker->low whip->clay pigeon->robotic viper->overheat+rain, which was like 20% of enemy's HP. And then the Senator character did like 5f guardbreak into scripted 1-move punish eating the 30% of mine, just to put things into perspective).
So again, I'm not here to teach or make you change the Machine in any way. At best I can give you feedback on how playing it feels like. I like the design but I see some tools as too niche and I'm usually just going with the usual ones even if there are better unexplored ones (I think you nerfed the rocket ride's velocity? Or does it too work on varying velocity? Because the only use I see for the rocket gun with it's nonexistent damage and zero chances to land is to rocket ride in or out the fight, quick.)