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Age of Wonders 4 >  Workshop > Von Schnitzel's Workshop > (GK Uppdated) Late Tier Cultural Units > Discussions
(GK Uppdated) Late Tier Cultural Units
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Von Schnitzel  [developer] 13 Dec, 2024 @ 7:18pm
My future plane for Dark culture units Warlock, Cablist and Stalker
Any one who has followed this mod for a long time will be aware of my opinion on the tier 2 dark battelmage which is that there is no reason to build Pursuers when Warlocks can be unlocked after like 1 or 2 turns, It's also worth noting that there's a lot of tome mages at tier 2 so changing it generally encourages the use of the mentioned tome mages.

The reason i added Cabalist was so that the dark culture could make use of the abundance of support only upgrades which otherwise would have required that you pick up one of the tome support just so you could make use of something like overdrive kit or whatever.

Now a tier 1 support is unique but not the most use full thing for dark because of this i have decided i'm going to make some major changes first i will moved Warlock back to tier 2 so that if a another mod changes that unit it will only undo the changes i made while keeping the tier 3 unit instead of there being 3 tier 2 unit.

The second thing i will do is merge Warlock and Cabalist in to a single unit Warlock model and name (and a new staff model) Cabalist abilities and role this is where it branches off into 2 possible paths the first one maintains the tier 3 battlemage Warlock uses Cabalist model and a new tier 3 battlemage is made using Warlock model Stalker is moved to tier 1 or the option i'm currently leaning more towards Stalker is reworked into a tier 3 ranged unit dual wielding crossbow pistols and a new tier 1 shield or fighter (dual wielding fighter maby?) no skirmishers there are way too many as it is.
Last edited by Von Schnitzel; 13 Dec, 2024 @ 7:31pm
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Showing 1-15 of 17 comments
Dabor 13 Dec, 2024 @ 7:32pm 
Haven't had a chance to try the T3 warlock myself yet although the "just use tier 2 battlemages" issue has definitely always been one I'm aware of, so I appreciate the attempt to deal with it (although tbh if you aren't picking up stuff that buffs them Pursuers are still sorta left out cold, and as dark you're a lot more likely to be going melee + casting while ignoring physical ranged I think).

Which sounds like a good argument for making Stalker a tier 3 ranged unit that's actually appealing to invest in, and "dual crossbow pistols" sounds like it'd differentiate it enough from tier 3 tome ranged units that it'd feel interesting.
#1
Cat-Lunatic 13 Dec, 2024 @ 8:49pm 
Honestly I like the warlock the way it is, if I may voice my opinions, I'd say keep it T3, or if you must, move it to T2, for the Cabalist replacement ...Dark is built around weakness and damage, so lets take a page from Reaver and and, honestly, the dual wielding stalker sounds amazing, and ...T1 shield might be good, Though the fighter is tempting, we'd need something to set either apart from the other factions, an ability that feels "Dark."
I confess I am not entirely a fan of the idea of merging the cabalist and warlock models, but your good at this and thus I think I can trust your judgement.
Last edited by Cat-Lunatic; 13 Dec, 2024 @ 8:52pm
#2
Von Schnitzel  [developer] 14 Dec, 2024 @ 8:34am 
Originally posted by Dabor:
Haven't had a chance to try the T3 warlock myself yet although the "just use tier 2 battlemages" issue has definitely always been one I'm aware of, so I appreciate the attempt to deal with it (although tbh if you aren't picking up stuff that buffs them Pursuers are still sorta left out cold, and as dark you're a lot more likely to be going melee + casting while ignoring physical ranged I think).

Which sounds like a good argument for making Stalker a tier 3 ranged unit that's actually appealing to invest in, and "dual crossbow pistols" sounds like it'd differentiate it enough from tier 3 tome ranged units that it'd feel interesting.
It's good that i'm not the only one that recognize the just use Warlock issue normally someone will write an essay about how i should not touch base units which can be summarized as please don't change unit because this other mod give it plus 2 damage.
#3
Von Schnitzel  [developer] 14 Dec, 2024 @ 8:50am 
Originally posted by Cat-Lunatic:
Honestly I like the warlock the way it is, if I may voice my opinions, I'd say keep it T3, or if you must, move it to T2, for the Cabalist replacement ...Dark is built around weakness and damage, so lets take a page from Reaver and and, honestly, the dual wielding stalker sounds amazing, and ...T1 shield might be good, Though the fighter is tempting, we'd need something to set either apart from the other factions, an ability that feels "Dark."
I confess I am not entirely a fan of the idea of merging the cabalist and warlock models, but your good at this and thus I think I can trust your judgement.
I will move Warlock back and convert it in to a support using the new updated cablist abilities because as mentioned it will technically increase cross mod compatibility, I won't use cablist model unless i make a replacement tier 3 battlemage in which case the new tier 3 will use warlock model and defult warlock will use cablist, How ever if i do the other one i will scrap cablist model as i won't need it any more and move stallker and add shield or fighter as mentiond.

I should probably mention that if Dark get subcultures as part of an update then i can and will do both if posible.
#4
MrDeath 21 Dec, 2024 @ 3:04am 
Okay, since I'm not a fan of a _last_ version of Cabalist, which made it _too reliable_ at saving your stuff. While the basic motto of a Dark culture is 'Cull the Weak', working at both sides presumably.

T3 Archer is fine idea, archers are a sad unit type overall, basically mages but lame. Propose a damage+debuff ability to it, something like multi-shot (mass weakened stack) or a melee stab (with weakened and some else), because it fits well with 'survivability through oppression' theme. And will help it being more than just damage numbers lobber.

But also the Shade skill 'reach weakened target' is too good to be disposed. New T1 unit should be a frail Fighter geared towards mobility over tenacity, because the last is a Oathsworn feat. With this theme it will not overlap with the Dark Warrior, who are more of a heavy frontline grunt.
#5
Dabor 21 Dec, 2024 @ 11:54am 
I liked the idea of dual crossbow as sorta going the commandant "two weak single shot attacks" route. Maybe each crossbow can do something different, like one armor-pierces weakened targets, and the other applies weak? I'0ve generally enjoyed a lot of the "low-mid value free action" designs Von Schnitzel runs with in how they make turn planning more interesting.
#6
Von Schnitzel  [developer] 22 Dec, 2024 @ 4:21pm 
Originally posted by MrDeath:
Okay, since I'm not a fan of a _last_ version of Cabalist, which made it _too reliable_ at saving your stuff. While the basic motto of a Dark culture is 'Cull the Weak', working at both sides presumably.

T3 Archer is fine idea, archers are a sad unit type overall, basically mages but lame. Propose a damage+debuff ability to it, something like multi-shot (mass weakened stack) or a melee stab (with weakened and some else), because it fits well with 'survivability through oppression' theme. And will help it being more than just damage numbers lobber.

But also the Shade skill 'reach weakened target' is too good to be disposed. New T1 unit should be a frail Fighter geared towards mobility over tenacity, because the last is a Oathsworn feat. With this theme it will not overlap with the Dark Warrior, who are more of a heavy frontline grunt.
I admit i agree that cablist is a bit overtuned especially for its tier especially when it was originally supposed to be an anti healer, There were two reasons why i reworked it 1. ai never uesed it as it viewed it as to weak and reason 2. it has a tendency to buff the worst unit it could fined.

I am going to make som minor but noticeable changes to cablist abilities so that its focused on stopping healing rather than actually healing any significant amount (dark vitality will be focused on buffs rather then healing)


The tier 3 archer will have 2 attacks every turn but lower damage overall if it spread out its attacks across multiple targets on top of this it will also have a long range shot functionally similar to warlocks sundring curses.

So far the plan is a tier 1 fighter dual wielding swords similar to barb salyer with stalkers back stab ability the speed thing isn't possible as it would make it have way to many thing for a tier 1 unit.

Off hand fighter trait will receive changes like lower armor against physical ranged attacks (ranged and skirmisher units attacks) and some other things.
#7
Von Schnitzel  [developer] 22 Dec, 2024 @ 4:30pm 
Originally posted by Dabor:
I liked the idea of dual crossbow as sorta going the commandant "two weak single shot attacks" route. Maybe each crossbow can do something different, like one armor-pierces weakened targets, and the other applies weak? I'0ve generally enjoyed a lot of the "low-mid value free action" designs Von Schnitzel runs with in how they make turn planning more interesting.
Current plane is full action power shot (sundering curses like effects) regularly attack nothing special, Unit can however always do 2 attack special shot (not the real ability name) counting as one.
#8
Von Schnitzel  [developer] 22 Dec, 2024 @ 4:56pm 
I have decided to go path 2, tier 3 archer tier 2 support and tier 1 fighter i have already mentioned my plans in the various responses above now there is however one problem i need a name for the tier 1 the current name one i am not 100% happy with is gladiator if you have any good fitting name suggestions throw them at me.

Hear is a screenshot of what the units will look like.
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/7416073482788156/3058F74D710F5B1FCEFAAE38AF779795F6BD89AB/?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false
Last edited by Von Schnitzel; 22 Dec, 2024 @ 4:58pm
#9
Dabor 22 Dec, 2024 @ 10:53pm 
I think one of those "Verber" names akin to Reaver jumps out at me. Something like Marauder or Ravager.

I'm usually the guy designing stuff and then needing to tap people to fill in half the names for me, though. T_T
#10
MrDeath 24 Dec, 2024 @ 9:12am 
Originally posted by Von Schnitzel:
I have decided to go path 2, tier 3 archer tier 2 support and tier 1 fighter i have already mentioned my plans in the various responses above now there is however one problem i need a name for the tier 1 the current name one i am not 100% happy with is gladiator if you have any good fitting name suggestions throw them at me.
Well, considering it'a a Dark fellow that will probably be used to 'reap' multiple already crippled, 'sentenced for death' targets - something mentioning to 'reach and finish off'.

'Executioner' sadly is already taken. 'Killer' is a bit meh. 'Oppressor'? Actually better for a shielded guy. 'Persecutor'? Not too vile. Good old 'Stalker'? My personal choice.
Last edited by MrDeath; 24 Dec, 2024 @ 9:12am
#11
Von Schnitzel  [developer] 24 Dec, 2024 @ 3:16pm 
Originally posted by Dabor:
I think one of those "Verber" names akin to Reaver jumps out at me. Something like Marauder or Ravager.

I'm usually the guy designing stuff and then needing to tap people to fill in half the names for me, though. T_T
Marauder feel more like barb or my outlaw mod and Ravager is a bit to close Reaver it also fit better for a Reaver unit then Dark.

Still i appreciate the suggestions.
#12
Von Schnitzel  [developer] 24 Dec, 2024 @ 3:22pm 
Originally posted by MrDeath:
Originally posted by Von Schnitzel:
I have decided to go path 2, tier 3 archer tier 2 support and tier 1 fighter i have already mentioned my plans in the various responses above now there is however one problem i need a name for the tier 1 the current name one i am not 100% happy with is gladiator if you have any good fitting name suggestions throw them at me.
Well, considering it'a a Dark fellow that will probably be used to 'reap' multiple already crippled, 'sentenced for death' targets - something mentioning to 'reach and finish off'.

'Executioner' sadly is already taken. 'Killer' is a bit meh. 'Oppressor'? Actually better for a shielded guy. 'Persecutor'? Not too vile. Good old 'Stalker'? My personal choice.
A name already in use is never a problem (as long as it isn't a base unit) as i can always just change the other unit like what i did to vanguard, I did consider Executioner and Stalker problem is then i need a new name for the unit i stole the name frome.

Also Persecutor is perfect for my Law and Order 'good Reaver' theme Reaver culture i want to make so i'm adding that to my list of unit names for custom culture units, Agre Oppressor is better for shield or reaver unit.
#13
Dabor 24 Dec, 2024 @ 3:46pm 
Butcher? Or if you want to go for the more stylish reference while sounding more distinct from Ogre Butchers, Shrike (aka Butcher Birds and just a cool sounding word)
Last edited by Dabor; 24 Dec, 2024 @ 3:47pm
#14
Von Schnitzel  [developer] 28 Dec, 2024 @ 8:47am 
Originally posted by Dabor:
Butcher? Or if you want to go for the more stylish reference while sounding more distinct from Ogre Butchers, Shrike (aka Butcher Birds and just a cool sounding word)
Butcher was a aow3 goblin unit which is more barb, Shrike just make me think of xcom chimera squad.

I have thought about it and there are a few names i think could work 1 Dark Cohort or just Cohort 2 Strider or Dark Strider and finally the last one rename Stalker to Shadow (Shadow was the name for Shade in aow1) and name the tier 1 Stalker.
#15
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