Crusader Kings III

Crusader Kings III

-ABBC- Additional Byzantine-Bulgarian Characters
 This topic has been pinned, so it's probably important
Abaçı  [developer] 10 Mar, 2024 @ 8:28am
Suggestions
You can post your suggestions( or even requests) for further additions here but I will have a few small rules though:

- For any suggestion, also post some sources, I can't go researching for all the suggestions so unless I find it really interesting I won't consider adding things with no source.

- Before suggesting a change about a character/family I've already added, please take the time to have a look at that character files about the family/character you are going to suggest about,
many characters have notes added about them and perhaps the suggestion you are going to make was not made on purpose.

- Requested characters should be "accesible": They should either be alive during 867 or 1066 start dates (or any other new start date that may come in the future) or can be reached through existing characters (either present in base game or added by me) such as being the ancestor of an existing character, or being the spouse of that characters cousin etc. The more connections they have to existing characters or the more important the characters they are connected to, the more likely that the character will be added and prioritized.

- Legendary/Mythical characters: They are ok, I've already added a few but I'd prefer if they are not alive in either start date so a mythical/legendary ancestor of a character I may add but I'd consider twice before adding such characters alive in either start date
Last edited by Abaçı; 11 Aug, 2024 @ 4:44am
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Showing 1-15 of 35 comments
Symmachus 28 May, 2024 @ 2:04pm 
Since 1178 start will include very young Leo Gabalas with his father, I would suggest to connect them to their ancestors beforehand. Here is what Settipani says about this family:

"They surely only appear with a certain Gabalas, son-in-law of Leon Katakalon and father of Anna, wife of the co-emperor Stephanos Lekapenos in 933. Then, the family only really appears in the sources from the 11th century, and its best-known representatives are Leon Gabalas, Caesar, master of Rhodes from 1204 to 1234, and Manuel Gabalas, born in Philadelphia (Lydia) in 1271, who became metropolitan of Ephesus in 1329. The origins of the family gave rise to various speculations. However, we know the seal of a Gabalas, patrikios around 600 who presents himself as a very likely ancestor. This Gabalas is probably no different from Gabala (Jabalah), phylarch of the Ghassanids in 636, general of Heraclius, whose ancestors had received the titles of patrician or magister militum. In addition, we know that this Gabala had established roots in Byzantium since Emperor Nikephoros I was descended from there. The hiatus is not so important between Nikephoros who reigned at the beginning of the 9th century and Gabalas, relative of Photios, who lived at the end of the same century. Nikephoros himself left no male descendants, but he may have had a brother (a late source attributes one to him, a certain patrikios Eutychios), who could have perpetuated the family*.

*Andreas Dandolo, Chron., p. 125. Cf M. HERLONG, 1986, p. 45. Eutycius (=Eutychios) would have helped his brother to seize power. The character, who does not appear in Byzantine sources, is not included in the PmbZ or in the PBE.
M. Herlong wonders if this is not a confusion with the patrician Aetios who actually played a role in the seizure of power by Nikephoros and, precisely, in seeking to push his brother onto the imperial throne. But this brother was called Leon and was never emperor. Furthermore, Aetios was playing on his own account and only joined Nikephoros at the very last moment. Although confusion is possible, it is difficult to see the relationship between the names Aetios/Leon and Eutychios/Nikephoros. Dandolo would have to have shown particular carelessness to have erred to this extent."

Here is the scan of the stemma compiled by him[files.catbox.moe].

Here are also the scans of related trees - of Katakylai[files.catbox.moe] and of Photius[files.catbox.moe]. There are some differences with your trees. Settipani thinks that Katakylai were related to the Amorians by marriage instead of being their cadet branch. He adds wife of Leon Katakalon, patrikios Tarasius and patriarch Sisinnius II as descendants of Sergius, brother of Photius. And finally, he names magistrissa Maria as wife of this Sergius.
Last edited by Symmachus; 29 May, 2024 @ 2:47pm
Abaçı  [developer] 30 May, 2024 @ 10:07am 
Originally posted by Symmachus:
Since 1178 start will include very young Leo Gabalas with his father, I would suggest to connect them to their ancestors beforehand. Here is what Settipani says about this family:

"They surely only appear with a certain Gabalas, son-in-law of Leon Katakalon and father of Anna, wife of the co-emperor Stephanos Lekapenos in 933. Then, the family only really appears in the sources from the 11th century, and its best-known representatives are Leon Gabalas, Caesar, master of Rhodes from 1204 to 1234, and Manuel Gabalas, born in Philadelphia (Lydia) in 1271, who became metropolitan of Ephesus in 1329. The origins of the family gave rise to various speculations. However, we know the seal of a Gabalas, patrikios around 600 who presents himself as a very likely ancestor. This Gabalas is probably no different from Gabala (Jabalah), phylarch of the Ghassanids in 636, general of Heraclius, whose ancestors had received the titles of patrician or magister militum. In addition, we know that this Gabala had established roots in Byzantium since Emperor Nikephoros I was descended from there. The hiatus is not so important between Nikephoros who reigned at the beginning of the 9th century and Gabalas, relative of Photios, who lived at the end of the same century. Nikephoros himself left no male descendants, but he may have had a brother (a late source attributes one to him, a certain patrikios Eutychios), who could have perpetuated the family*.

*Andreas Dandolo, Chron., p. 125. Cf M. HERLONG, 1986, p. 45. Eutycius (=Eutychios) would have helped his brother to seize power. The character, who does not appear in Byzantine sources, is not included in the PmbZ or in the PBE.
M. Herlong wonders if this is not a confusion with the patrician Aetios who actually played a role in the seizure of power by Nikephoros and, precisely, in seeking to push his brother onto the imperial throne. But this brother was called Leon and was never emperor. Furthermore, Aetios was playing on his own account and only joined Nikephoros at the very last moment. Although confusion is possible, it is difficult to see the relationship between the names Aetios/Leon and Eutychios/Nikephoros. Dandolo would have to have shown particular carelessness to have erred to this extent."

Here is the scan of the stemma compiled by him[files.catbox.moe].

Here are also the scans of related trees - of Katakylai[files.catbox.moe] and of Photius[files.catbox.moe]. There are some differences with your trees. Settipani thinks that Katakylai were related to the Amorians by marriage instead of being their cadet branch. He adds wife of Leon Katakalon, patrikios Tarasius and patriarch Sisinnius II as descendants of Sergius, brother of Photius. And finally, he names magistrissa Maria as wife of this Sergius.

Thanks.

Although I highly doubt it, I have some hope(slightest of hope) that PDX may actually do some proper additions and corrections to some families especially since this is a Byzantine specific dlc, so I'll try not to touch Byzantines much until dlc release but for families like the Photius' or earlier members of Katakalons, that I'm absolutely certain they will never ever correct, I think I can do some changes before dlc.

Edit: Is the connection between [Akylas] born 765 and Katakylas the relative (nephew or cousin) of Michael II certain, especially regarding it being from male line? I'll add consul Akylas and his descendants either way but currently I have added him as Michael's relative on the paternal line and if there is no certainty, I'd prefer to keep it that way as it would allow a cadet for Amorians.

Also is Gabala certain to be son-in-law of Katakylas? I've seen the claim he is the son of either Katakylas the relative of Leo or a son of this Katakylas with a name similar to him. I think it was from PMBZ. If it is not certain I'll keep him as the way I've added based on this and add a mother to him as a descendant of Phylarch Gabala but if he is certain to be a son then I'd prefer to add him as a paternal descendant of the Phylarch.


Last edited by Abaçı; 30 May, 2024 @ 5:22pm
Symmachus 31 May, 2024 @ 4:34am 
Originally posted by Abaçı:

Edit: Is the connection between [Akylas] born 765 and Katakylas the relative (nephew or cousin) of Michael II certain, especially regarding it being from male line? I'll add consul Akylas and his descendants either way but currently I have added him as Michael's relative on the paternal line and if there is no certainty, I'd prefer to keep it that way as it would allow a cadet for Amorians.

I don't think that it is certain.

BTW, in vanilla game there is one Taxiarches Katakylas, ruler of Opsikion in 769. Although this character is probably fictitious, I think that he can still be connected to other Katakylai. I made him a son of consul Akylas.

Also, in 867 start Dalmatia is ruled by one Amphilochios Radenos (who I believe is also fictitious). You can connect him to other Radenoi you added.

Originally posted by Abaçı:

Also is Gabala certain to be son-in-law of Katakylas? I've seen the claim he is the son of either Katakylas the relative of Leo or a son of this Katakylas with a name similar to him. I think it was from PMBZ. If it is not certain I'll keep him as the way I've added based on this and add a mother to him as a descendant of Phylarch Gabala but if he is certain to be a son then I'd prefer to add him as a paternal descendant of the Phylarch.

Settipani describes his own solution as probable. Some sources, such as PmBZ indeed call Gabalas a son of Katakylas, but I personally find it much more likely than he was his son-in-law. They had different surnames, and IMHO the wording used by Theophanes Continuatus (daughter of Gabalas, granddaughter of Katakylas) implies that Anna descended from Gabalades on her father's side and Katakylai on her mother's side.

Gabalas is a surname, so this character needs a valid first name.
Last edited by Symmachus; 31 May, 2024 @ 6:38am
Abaçı  [developer] 31 May, 2024 @ 6:48am 
Originally posted by Symmachus:

I don't think that it is certain. The brackets indicate that Akylas' name was inferred (in this case from his grandfather). But the notion of Katakylai descending from consul Akylas contradicts them being a cadet branch of the Amorians. Michael I was born to a peasant family, and it is hardly possible that there was a consul among his kinsmen. [Leon] Katakylas is described as exadelphos of Michael, which usually means cousin. However, Settipani prefers to see him as emperor's nephew. In his view, the alliance between Amorians and Katakylai could've happened only after Michael had risen through the ranks. Thus, Katakylas would've been very young when he became a count of Opsikion (an office that was reserved for very experienced generals). However, due to Thomas' rebellion Michael was in a very precarious position, so he would've valued his nephew's loyalty above experience.

In vanilla game there is also one Taxiarches Katakylas, ruler of Opsikion in 769. Although this character is probably fictitious, I think that he can still be connected to other Katakylai. I made him a son of consul Akylas.

Michael was born a peasant but became important before he became emperor. Father of his wife Thekla is generally identified as Bardanes Tourkos and Bardanes' son Bryennios is a known relative(cousin but perhaps meant as more distant) of Emperor Leo the Armenian. Although this is possibly mistaken, some Arab sources(so claims PMBZ) also make the father or grandfather of Emperor Michael I a cousin or uncle of emperor Nikephoros. I've just added a line of Akylas but due to the speculativeness of the descent from him and certainty of relation to Emperor Michael, I've made him descend maternally from Akylas.

Taxiarches Katakylas is probably PDX mixing everything up, knowing that a Katakylas was Komes of Opsikion but not his name and making him a Komes of Opsikion before his time or they may even have believed when first doing these in CK2 or even CK1 time that Byzantine empire was feudal and if in 820s there is a Katakylas then he must have had an ancestor of that family. For other examples there is also another Katakilatzes or some such dynasty name, again fictional placeholder Strategos of a Theme along the Blacksea(can't reacall which). They also have at least two seperate Mouseles (before 867 start) but they are of two different dynasties with slight derivations in the dynasty name and there is a Pakourianos in 867 start but not in 1066 start when in fact there was no such family known in 867. They were a family originating from two brothers, members of Georgian nobility, who went to Byzantine Empire because they had so many sisters their share of inheritance was very little. They rose high and even married into the imperial family (Komnenos) within 11th century. They must also have been important in Georgia because their grandmother or great-grandmother Thekla had a brother who married to a daughter of one of the Bagrat kings.

But such is the historical accuracy we get from PDX.

Originally posted by Symmachus:

BTW, in 867 start Dalmatia is ruled by one Amphilochios Radenos (who I believe is also fictitious). You can connect him to other Radenoi you added.

He is a fictional placeholder. I was going to give him a new dynasty, an appropriate one if I can find one or a fictional one if not, but decided to wait until dlc releases. I had plans to correct all the placeholders to actual people who held that title if it is known or just some other historical people and families if not but decided that I should wait until release.

Originally posted by Symmachus:

Settipani describes his own solution as probable. Some sources, such as PmBZ indeed call Gabalas a son of Katakylas, but I personally find it much more likely than he was his son-in-law. They had different surnames, and IMHO the wording used by Theophanes Continuatus (daughter of Gabalas, granddaughter of Katakylas) implies that Anna descended from Gabalades on her father's side and Katakylai on her mother's side.

We have people named after their maternal ancestors and also have people whose name became their family names even if they already belonged to known families like several (possible) Mamikonian branches in Byzantine Empire so it is not impossible a son who bore the name of a maternal ancestor eventually have descendants who use his name as a family name but if there is even the slightest of leeway and from what you say there is, then I'd prefer to make Gabala descend maternally from Katakylas. I may or may not make the family tree look exactly like how Christian Settipani did it as I can't remember how I currently made it look and according to which sources.

If there is more than one account, view, interpretation etc. I generally try to implement as much of them as possible and find some compromise. For example various additions and changes to Armenian family trees I made are a mix of Christian Settipani's and Cyril Toumanoff's family trees(French wikipedia sources them both) and sometimes other people as well or as another example I made Olga of Kiev a daughter of Vladimir Rasate born to a daughter of Oleg the Seer because of two different theories on her, one claiming that she was the daughter of Oleg the Seer and the other that she was a Bulgarian princess born to either Vladimir Rasate or Simeon.
Last edited by Abaçı; 31 May, 2024 @ 7:14am
iyasajaa157 31 May, 2024 @ 7:26am 
You should add the missing parents of Ermentrude of Roucy [en.wikipedia.org], the matrilineal ancestress of Emperor Heinrich IV. Oddly enough, both of her maternal grandparents (Gilbert of Lorraine and Gerberga, daughter of Henry the Fowler and Matilda) are in game, but for some reason they left out both her mother and her father. Also, her father, Renaud was a Norse viking who swore allegiance to King of France, I think you can get a bit creative with his ancestry.
Abaçı  [developer] 31 May, 2024 @ 7:30am 
Originally posted by iyasajaa157:
You should add the missing parents of Ermentrude of Roucy [en.wikipedia.org], the matrilineal ancestress of Emperor Heinrich IV. Oddly enough, both of her maternal grandparents (Gilbert of Lorraine and Gerberga, daughter of Henry the Fowler and Matilda) are in game, but for some reason they left out both her mother and her father. Also, her father, Renaud was a Norse viking who swore allegiance to King of France, I think you can get a bit creative with his ancestry.
Thanks. According to wikipedia article you provided he may have had a brother so I'll be adding him a father. Perhaps I can make the father available as a baby in 867 or add a grandfather who is young in 867 and give a claim.

Are their children available in the game or are they also absent?
Last edited by Abaçı; 31 May, 2024 @ 7:33am
iyasajaa157 31 May, 2024 @ 9:05pm 
Originally posted by Abaçı:
Are their children available in the game or are they also absent?

I don't think their other children appeared on the game other than Ermentrude herself. For some reason Paradox left them all out

Also, sorry for getting out of topic, the Angevin family trees are quite a mess, you have 3 people representing Adelaide-Blanche of Anjou, one is basically the daughter of Folques II of Anjou, one is the daughter of his son Geoffrey who is married to William I of Provence and the mother of Constance of Arles and one is his granddaughter. Adelaide-Blanche should've been just one person who is a daughter of Folques II of Anjou and married 4-5 times and have many children with her husbands but Paradox made 3 versions of her with different parents for some reason. Ermengarde of Anjou, the wife of Duke of Brittany is also wrongly linked as the daughter of Fulk II instead of his son Geoffrey.

And there are also many historical people who isn't linked to one of their parents, Richinza of Zahringen isn't considered her mother's daughter even though her younger sister is linked to her mother, Gertrude of Egisheim isn't linked to Heilwig of Dasburg, her mother, and then Alianor of Normandy the second wife of Baldwin IV of Flanders isn't related to her mother, Judith of Brittany. It's pretty much Paradox's oversights with these family trees, it irks me so much lol.

Last edited by iyasajaa157; 31 May, 2024 @ 9:21pm
Abaçı  [developer] 1 Jun, 2024 @ 7:34am 
Originally posted by iyasajaa157:

I don't think their other children appeared on the game other than Ermentrude herself. For some reason Paradox left them all out

Also, sorry for getting out of topic, the Angevin family trees are quite a mess, you have 3 people representing Adelaide-Blanche of Anjou, one is basically the daughter of Folques II of Anjou, one is the daughter of his son Geoffrey who is married to William I of Provence and the mother of Constance of Arles and one is his granddaughter. Adelaide-Blanche should've been just one person who is a daughter of Folques II of Anjou and married 4-5 times and have many children with her husbands but Paradox made 3 versions of her with different parents for some reason. Ermengarde of Anjou, the wife of Duke of Brittany is also wrongly linked as the daughter of Fulk II instead of his son Geoffrey.

It's not out of topic as long as it is about PDX being incapable of adding proper family trees lol.

The main scope of the mod is done but as long as I am provided with sources and have the time to do these additions and corrections, I'll do so. Unfortunately I no longer have much time, but I enjoy doing this so whenever I have enough time to spare I'll be doing some work on this.

Originally posted by iyasajaa157:
And there are also many historical people who isn't linked to one of their parents, Richinza of Zahringen isn't considered her mother's daughter even though her younger sister is linked to her mother, Gertrude of Egisheim isn't linked to Heilwig of Dasburg, her mother, and then Alianor of Normandy the second wife of Baldwin IV of Flanders isn't related to her mother, Judith of Brittany. It's pretty much Paradox's oversights with these family trees, it irks me so much lol.

That's one of the reasons for this mod. Connect disconnected members, add missing members and families etc.
Symmachus 1 Jun, 2024 @ 12:02pm 
Settipani speculates that Tiberius III was related to the Heraclian dynasty:

"It is possible that Apsimaros is linked to the Heraclid dynasty. His son is called Theodosios (G. V. SUMNER, 1976, p. 293: IV, s. v. Theodosios 7845, p. 514-5), a fairly common name but borne by several princes of the dynasty. Above all, his brother was called Herakleios, a name which is only found, with the exception of two bishops from the end of the 8th century, among members of the dynasty descended from Heraclius: PmbZ, II, v. Herakleios 2556-2563, p. 125-9 (it is probable that 2560 & 2561, known by seals from the beginning of the 8th century with the qualification of patrikios, relate to the brother of Apsimaros, patrikios and monostrategos in 705). Unlike J. F. HALDON, 1994, p. 104, I absolutely do not believe that we can consider that the brother of Apsimar only received this name after the accession of his brother."
Abaçı  [developer] 2 Jun, 2024 @ 4:02am 
Originally posted by Symmachus:
Settipani speculates that Tiberius III was related to the Heraclian dynasty:

"It is possible that Apsimaros is linked to the Heraclid dynasty. His son is called Theodosios (G. V. SUMNER, 1976, p. 293: IV, s. v. Theodosios 7845, p. 514-5), a fairly common name but borne by several princes of the dynasty. Above all, his brother was called Herakleios, a name which is only found, with the exception of two bishops from the end of the 8th century, among members of the dynasty descended from Heraclius: PmbZ, II, v. Herakleios 2556-2563, p. 125-9 (it is probable that 2560 & 2561, known by seals from the beginning of the 8th century with the qualification of patrikios, relate to the brother of Apsimaros, patrikios and monostrategos in 705). Unlike J. F. HALDON, 1994, p. 104, I absolutely do not believe that we can consider that the brother of Apsimar only received this name after the accession of his brother."

Apsimar's name is thought to be of Germanic or Turkic or Slavic origin, I think I went with Germanic and at one point Germanic and Turkic both. I'll take a look at the Heraklius' dynasty to see whether if I can connect them through a female line and considering the several marriages with Khazars, starting possibly with Eudoxia Epiphania whose betrothed, Ziebel or his son, died but may still have married to a Khazar ruler Irbis, and later the marriages to empresses Theodora and Irene, perhaps also some Khazar connection so taking the Turkic origin.
Last edited by Abaçı; 2 Jun, 2024 @ 4:22am
Abaçı  [developer] 2 Jun, 2024 @ 12:45pm 
Originally posted by iyasajaa157:
You should add the missing parents of Ermentrude of Roucy [en.wikipedia.org], the matrilineal ancestress of Emperor Heinrich IV. Oddly enough, both of her maternal grandparents (Gilbert of Lorraine and Gerberga, daughter of Henry the Fowler and Matilda) are in game, but for some reason they left out both her mother and her father. Also, her father, Renaud was a Norse viking who swore allegiance to King of France, I think you can get a bit creative with his ancestry.

Just added this and will add more missing members of her family (siblings and their children) when I have time. Keep them coming if you know of more missing people/families.
Symmachus 4 Jun, 2024 @ 11:06am 
Here are all known Gabalades from the relevant period: Andronikos Gabalas, dishypatos (last third of the 11th century); Eustathios Gabalas, protospatharios (1060/80); Michael Gabalas,
vestarch (11th century); John Gabalas, vestes and catepano (12th century); Michael Gabalas (12th century); Nikephoros Gabalas (11th century); Leo Gabalas, bishop of Nymphaion (1186); John Gabalas, official in charge of maritime affairs (1196); Stephen Gabalas, protonobelissimohypertatos (c. 1199); John Gabalas, sebastos (12th century); Constantine Gabalas, patrikios (second half of the 12th century); Gregory Gabalas, protospatharios and strategos (11th century).

Since this family did not occupy the highest echelons of the Byzantine society at the time, I don't think that the relationship between these individuals can be reconstructed with any degree of certainity.

However, Stephen Gabalas is known to be an uncle of one Epiphanios Krateros. Here is an article on the Krateroi by Jean-Claude Cheynet[www.persee.fr] .
Last edited by Symmachus; 4 Jun, 2024 @ 11:10am
Abaçı  [developer] 4 Jun, 2024 @ 12:10pm 
Originally posted by Symmachus:
Here are all known Gabalades from the relevant period: Andronikos Gabalas, dishypatos (last third of the 11th century); Eustathios Gabalas, protospatharios (1060/80); Michael Gabalas,
vestarch (11th century); John Gabalas, vestes and catepano (12th century); Michael Gabalas (12th century); Nikephoros Gabalas (11th century); Leo Gabalas, bishop of Nymphaion (1186); John Gabalas, official in charge of maritime affairs (1196); Stephen Gabalas, protonobelissimohypertatos (c. 1199); John Gabalas, sebastos (12th century); Constantine Gabalas, patrikios (second half of the 12th century); Gregory Gabalas, protospatharios and strategos (11th century).

Since this family did not occupy the highest echelons of the Byzantine society at the time, I don't think that the relationship between these individuals can be reconstructed with any degree of certainity.

However, Stephen Gabalas is known to be an uncle of one Epiphanios Krateros. Here is an article on the Krateroi by Jean-Claude Cheynet[www.persee.fr] .

Thanks. Unfortunately even the relationship between members of families who had a lot of members important enough to be known are not known to us unless they were of the most prominent families and even then some relationships are obscure even within immediate family members of some of the emperors
Symmachus 11 Jun, 2024 @ 5:27am 
Melissenoi should also be able to access the Roman heritage. Nikephoros Melissourgos, nephew of bishop Makarios Melissenos, produced a fictional genealogy of the family, tracing its ancestry to one Eugenius Vespus Lutatius, a contemporary of Constantine the Great.
Last edited by Symmachus; 11 Jun, 2024 @ 5:34am
Abaçı  [developer] 11 Jun, 2024 @ 3:12pm 
Originally posted by Symmachus:
Melissenoi should also be able to access the Roman heritage. Nikephoros Melissourgos, nephew of bishop Makarios Melissenos, produced a fictional genealogy of the family, tracing its ancestry to one Eugenius Vespus Lutatius, a contemporary of Constantine the Great.
Now that you mentioned it, I've added some families like descendants of Theodoros Chila that have known Roman ancestors or at least theorised to be connected, with at least one still around in 867, I'll take a look at them as well.
Last edited by Abaçı; 11 Jun, 2024 @ 3:19pm
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