You see in 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 2, those same conscripts (the cheaper ones) can deliver the same dps than the most expensive ones, you can even rush points more faster than normal because you always keep an advantage of 3 or more squads (if you use partisans). They exist just to make your early game even more powerful leaving you with enough Mp to create more mgs or fuel/ammo caches. I think they are fine, damn, they can even grab two lmg from the barracks and use the hit the ground ability to win trades against volks, easily.(with out counting the captain aoe buff)

Those poor brit or okw dudes can't keep up with the overwhelming numbers, is a living nightmare.

An important detail is that Fresh conscripts at vet 2 become Frontoviki Conscripts, gaining access to grenades. And Frontoviki Conscripts at vet 3 become normal Conscripts, gaining access to weapon upgrades.

Oprindeligt skrevet af SneakEye:

An important detail is that Fresh conscripts at vet 2 become Frontoviki Conscripts, gaining access to grenades. And Frontoviki Conscripts at vet 3 become normal Conscripts, gaining access to weapon upgrades.

This is an interesting solution, but is it makes them conscripts 3 stars? And what do you actually think of idea by itself?

Oprindeligt skrevet af Arsdor:

This is an interesting solution, but is it makes them conscripts 3 stars? And what do you actually think of idea by itself?

Yes it does.
The diversity seems nice, but the Soviets have the most infantry already and each role is fulfilled. The changes overall seem like unneeded buffs. 8-10 men squads don't fit well in the game, they are too durable and most cover providing objects are too small. 3 weapon slots is too strong for a starting unit.

Oprindeligt skrevet af SneakEye:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Arsdor:

This is an interesting solution, but is it makes them conscripts 3 stars? And what do you actually think of idea by itself?

Yes it does.
The diversity seems nice, but the Soviets have the most infantry already and each role is fulfilled. The changes overall seem like unneeded buffs. 8-10 men squads don't fit well in the game, they are too durable and most cover providing objects are too small. 3 weapon slots is too strong for a starting unit.

But, as I said, similar changes can be introduced to other factions.
UKGB - Territorials, Riflemen Section, Infantry Section
USA - Rookies, Riflemen, Footmen
OKW - Volksgrenadiers, Schützen, Leichteinfanterie
Wehrmacht - Rekruten, Grenadiers, Jager
I just think, that such change could give more interesting strategies. Previously you could combine linear infantry with various elites, but such change could allow you to combine linears with linears.

And yeah, probably it is possible to make frontoviks acquire 3rd slot via upgrade or veterancy

Oprindeligt skrevet af SneakEye:

An important detail is that Fresh conscripts at vet 2 become Frontoviki Conscripts, gaining access to grenades. And Frontoviki Conscripts at vet 3 become normal Conscripts, gaining access to weapon upgrades.

Except they dont gain access to weapon upgrades. What are you talking about? Regular conscripts you can upgrade with ppsh or svt right away. Fresh conscripts do not get that option even if you take them all the way to conscripts which is time consuming if they ever even make it that far. fresh conscripts seem as you would expect to be best used as cannon fodder. To merge them into vet troops. Which, I don't think is efficient as getting conscripts in the first place and reinforcing them.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Brock ThunderCock<<AD>>:

Oprindeligt skrevet af SneakEye:

An important detail is that Fresh conscripts at vet 2 become Frontoviki Conscripts, gaining access to grenades. And Frontoviki Conscripts at vet 3 become normal Conscripts, gaining access to weapon upgrades.

Except they dont gain access to weapon upgrades. What are you talking about? Regular conscripts you can upgrade with ppsh or svt right away. Fresh conscripts do not get that option even if you take them all the way to conscripts which is time consuming if they ever even make it that far. fresh conscripts seem as you would expect to be best used as cannon fodder. To merge them into vet troops. Which, I don't think is efficient as getting conscripts in the first place and reinforcing them.

That is why I proposed the option in initial message.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Brock ThunderCock<<AD>>:

Oprindeligt skrevet af SneakEye:

An important detail is that Fresh conscripts at vet 2 become Frontoviki Conscripts, gaining access to grenades. And Frontoviki Conscripts at vet 3 become normal Conscripts, gaining access to weapon upgrades.

Except they dont gain access to weapon upgrades. What are you talking about? Regular conscripts you can upgrade with ppsh or svt right away. Fresh conscripts do not get that option even if you take them all the way to conscripts which is time consuming if they ever even make it that far. fresh conscripts seem as you would expect to be best used as cannon fodder. To merge them into vet troops. Which, I don't think is efficient as getting conscripts in the first place and reinforcing them.

This is what I am talking about:
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2614954306
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2614954363
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2614954443

So, I think over my idea a while, and develop it a bit further, to make it a bit more solid.
The conscript in the beggining are the squad of 6 men, which can run with "Ura!", give extra men to weapon crews and squads and lie down. They don't have access to grenades and cover buildings besides sandbags, neither to extra weapons. However, unlike superior HQ-deployable squads, they have access to variety of leaders
Starshina[i.imgur.com]
Starshina is underofficer, capable enough to lead a rifle squad and keep them in good condition. He buffs squad health and sandbag building speed.
Veteran[i.imgur.com]
Veterans are soldiers who get more or less extensive combat experience. They are attached to conscripts to make them more prepared for fight. Veteran slightly increase the sight of the squad as well as its aim and give an ability to hear the vehicles.
Young officer[i.imgur.com]
Young officers are fresh lieutenants, whose enthusiasm can be shared among his subordinates. He increase squad speed and morale.
With the ammo bearer they will have their squad increased to 8 and can be increased to 10 with an upgrade like in vanilla, so they are turning into good support infantry.

Frontoviks will have all the currently available to conscipts defences and at clutch granade, as I proposed before. The could also get weapon slot instead of ammo bearer if will choose another extra soldier - weapon specialist.
Weapon Specialist[i.imgur.com]

So the concept is following: conscripts are support infantry, who can start massive fire on enemy, reinforce other squads and be buffed with various leaders. They are good to use as soon as the can be also buffed with commissar and leutenant, not that vulnerable to mines, snipers and flamers. However, they are rather vulnerable to suppression of machineguns, vehicles and they hardly can find suitable cover. They are good in endgame because of large amount of troops per squad without hitting the popcap.
Frontoviks lack the mobility of other options, but can really dig in and defend positions. They are good option in an endgame because of third weapon slot which brings more firepower per squad.
Strelki, or classic conscripts are flexible infantry unit with an access to molotov and at grenades as well as both "lie down" and "Ura!". They also have access to SVT, PPSH and PTRS. They are good in late game because of flexibility multiplied on weapons upgrades.

What I also wanted to propose is to change basic sapeurs of Soviets. They have similar options as field engineers in terms of weaponry, but field engineers can also have body armor. Generally we can make double flamer sapeurs and field engineers, but the first option would always be weaker. Of course field engineers can't build main buildings, but as soon as HQ can build them on its own, sapeurs become reasonable mostly in terms of repairing and removing mines. Moreover, we can find that the engineers of other factions have access to weapons which can't be taken from racks. What I propose is to give soviet sappeurs a rifle grenade weapon upgrade. Their ability to use VGPS-41 will help to fire at enemy light vehicles on the range of barrel grenade and with power of two PTRS shots. Not the best option to make the first damage to vehicle, but still better then nothing, and a nice opportunity to finish retreating vehicle.

So that on the Wehrmacht side in this case I would suggest adding Rekruten and and Jager.
The Rekruten are then a kind of counterpart to the new Soviet recruits-a large, inexperienced infantry unit, expandable to a squad of 8 if desired. Unlike their Soviet counterpart, the German recruits would not be able to run quickly on command, but they would be able to lie down just as well. Instead of running, I would suggest creating an ability that would allow them to shoot more frequently for 10 seconds, "Organized Fire. In addition, they would be able to build sandbags. Thus, in its original version, this infantry would be more of a defensive unit.
As added leaders, I would suggest the following:
Unterfeldwebel - slightly increases health and reload speed. The cheapest upgrade that slightly increases the defensive focus of this unit.
Einheitspionier - a slightly more trained recruit that will allow fighters to dig trenches and make gaps in barbed wire.
Scharführer SS - the most expensive squad leader. His ability - "Pervitin" allows you to significantly increase the morale of the squad and make it invulnerable to suppression, though at the cost of loss of health.
Jager is a light infantry unit that serves as a scout. They are fast and accurate enough on their own, but at the same time they do not have a lot of health. Initially they can only run, but with veterans they gain the ability to detect vehicles by sound like the anti-tank recruits of the USSR. They can get an upgrade in the form of the Aufklärer , an infantryman with binoculars who can use it like a T-70 commander. It is also possible to get a Panzerbuchse antitank rifle
Thus, if in my concept the USSR conscripts are divided as: conscripts (light fire support infantry/gun meat); frontoviks (defensive infantry with short AT potential); strelki (versatile infantry - light assault infantry/mid-range infantry/anti-tank infantry), then the Wehrmacht has a different situation. In the case of the German Army the following division is applied: rekruten (light fire support infantry/light defensive infantry/ cannon fodder/sturmgrenadiers), jager (light scouts/light anti-tank infantry), grenadiers (strong mid-range infantry) and sturmgrenadiers (light assault infantry). Thus, in the case of the USSR there is more of a division based on battle phases (defense-attack-maneuvers); in the case of the Reich it is a functional division (small arms infantry, reconnaissance, and all-purpose infantry).

In the case of the British Infantry, I propose two new units: Territorials and Weapons Section. The Territorials, like all previously proposed first squads, are a large infantry and calculus unit with no special abilities, but upgradable by leaders. Territorials can't lie down, but can use Sprint as Assault grenadiers and suppress fire as Rear Echelon. They can also dig trenches.
Upgrades include the Patfinder, which noticeably increases a squad's vision. The second upgrade, relatively expensive, is the Instructor, which allows you to use the Button Vehicle like the Guardsmen and also slightly increases squad speed. Finally, the third upgrade is the Tommy Veteran, which significantly increases health.
The second upgrade is the Weapon section, a three-man unit with three weapon slots and slightly increased marksmanship. Three weapon slots greatly increase the squad's firepower at a relatively low cost in Manpower and Popcap, but at the cost of insane vulnerability of such a squad. Among the available upgrades are camouflage training and a British officer, which will allow the squad to see further and increase the size of the squad to 4 men.

The HQ's already have much more units than vanilla, 1-2 engineers, 1-2 infantry, 1-2 support units and a light vehicle in most cases. This covers many basic roles and keeps the early game somewhat inline with vanilla. The more specialized units are available in the tier structures, which makes balancing and timing easier.

I think most proposed units are designed to excel at one role which makes them too strong for starter units, like always running, button, three weapon slots etc. Even more units will also make the early game too complex and decreases the value of the units which are available at later stages. Sorry, but I don't have motivation for such overhauls anymore.

Oprindeligt skrevet af SneakEye:

The HQ's already have much more units than vanilla, 1-2 engineers, 1-2 infantry, 1-2 support units and a light vehicle in most cases. This covers many basic roles and keeps the early game somewhat inline with vanilla. The more specialized units are available in the tier structures, which makes balancing and timing easier.

I think most proposed units are designed to excel at one role which makes them too strong for starter units, like always running, button, three weapon slots etc. Even more units will also make the early game too complex and decreases the value of the units which are available at later stages. Sorry, but I don't have motivation for such overhauls anymore.

Well, from my point of view one way or another none of these units can be considered a full replacement for later units. Although a squad of 8 or more is somehow dangerous, each of its units is still not as strong as those of more advanced units. I also propose to make most of the powerful abilities available after a relatively expensive upgrade. Even in the vanilla game, anti-tank recruits who can throw multiple anti-tank grenades at armored vehicles at once from the start of the game are quite an expensive purchase. The player can choose between five infantry (I emphasize infantry, not including field guns) Soviet units to fight tanks: recruits (240 manpower, 70 ammo for PTRS, 35 for grenade), penal battallions (T1 building + 290 manpower, 40 for ptrs, 45 for at charge), Guard rifles (360 manpower), assault guards (360 manpower +100 ammo for bazookas), partisans (270 manpower). All of this is in the mod. Quite a wide set, but the player somehow chooses between the options. Why? He wonders if he needs this unit to run fast. Could it search for equipment? Brake techniques? Hide? Plant mines? How much Manpower/Ammo do I have? What other abilities do I want from my squad? What else do I want to get out of this building?
So I can't agree that introducing these or other similar starting units will make other units useless or less attractive. However, it could give the player the option to purposefully develop surviving and experienced starting units. To some extent, it might even allow the player to really get past using elite or special infantry, but is that a bad thing? Since I started the discussion with Soviets, let's say I start the game with abundant initial resources, and while the bomb squad is building, I order Conscripts, Frontoviks, and Strelki. I want infantry with short range weapons, but I'm afraid of enemy vehicles. I could choose PTRS for the Strelki and wait for another 60 ammo, or issue a PPSH-41, wait for 35 or whatever ammo, and while my Strelki with PPSH will get close to enemy infantry, Conscripts will cover them and Frontoviks will be nearby at the ready to throw an anti-tank grenade bunch. Each of these units is not good, not great, but decent, or rather, sufficient. Next, I am free to choose whether I want to build Guardsmen, Penal Guardsmen, or Assault Troops to make a strong specialized squad. Or do I want to save resources for an early entry into tech?
That's pretty much what I'm talking about. It's not a full replacement for all other content, but an option, and each improvement only improves the squad, not makes it a full elite replacement. Furthermore, each improvement is a trade-off. What exactly and what resources do I want to spend on, and what can I afford?
In any case, this is nothing more than a suggestion, and I have no right or even desire to force you to redo part of YOUR mod, especially considering how much work has already been done. Nevertheless, if I could somehow convince you that it's not the ravings of a madman, I might try offering it already with specific numbers (if you can tell me the current unit stats, I couldn't find them) and help with the retexturing if you deem it necessary. I'm not even stuttering about the mod as such yet, but at least for the sake of a kind of beta test.