Thanks for your input.
Honestly I don't like the new vet requirement at all. It makes no sense to suicide veteran crews. And it seems that many players complain about it. I will wait for the final patchnotes before making any decisions.
Also the initial reason for this change is the AT rocket strafe + ram combo. I'd rather nerf the rocket strafe because it is doctrinal and much less used.

Would it be possible to alter the OKW "Airborne Assault" to utilize Sturmoviks and yield reinforcements for Airborne Guards? I feel as though that would make a decent replacement as the attacks are less devastating but can still chip away at the health of vehicles. Targeting is also a concern as air support prioritizes threats by class so a Panther might become the target instead of a weakened and rammed Panzer IV.

This should reduce the frequency of strafing runs combo'd with rams and limits it's use to occur in larger battles where multiple targets can be hit rather than turning the tide in smaller engagements.

It'd punish Axis armor that isn't high-tailing it out of there if it wasn't clear enough that getting smacked by a T-34 isn't bad enough and would probably coincide with the Veterancy thing going on with the T-34s; the more resources you commit, the more likely the tank will go down.

Perhaps Vet 3 will yield Engine Damage and Vet 2 will get the Main Gun destroyed critical instead.

I will wait for the final patchnotes, but the Airborne Assault sounds as a good alternative.

Originally posted by SneakEye:

Thanks for your input.
Honestly I don't like the new vet requirement at all. It makes no sense to suicide veteran crews. And it seems that many players complain about it. I will wait for the final patchnotes before making any decisions.
Also the initial reason for this change is the AT rocket strafe + ram combo. I'd rather nerf the rocket strafe because it is doctrinal and much less used.

Im playing this mod nearly every day and think that the current balance is in a very good state. I do not think that nerfing to ram or rocket strike is necessary. Im strongly against it. Nerfing overal just ruins the fun of this game and mod. How about focusing more on buffing underperforming units and abilities instead? I think that is a much better idea.

Originally posted by Mauritiux:

Im playing this mod nearly every day and think that the current balance is in a very good state. I do not think that nerfing to ram or rocket strike is necessary. Im strongly against it. Nerfing overal just ruins the fun of this game and mod. How about focusing more on buffing underperforming units and abilities instead? I think that is a much better idea.

Can you name such units and abilities that need said buffs? And perhaps make a separate discussion thread for it?

I don't see how nerfing the Soviet AT Rocket Strike ability would ruin the balance or the fun factor of the ENTIRE mod, and it seems a bit baseless for you to say so.

Originally posted by Mauritiux:

Originally posted by SneakEye:

Thanks for your input.
Honestly I don't like the new vet requirement at all. It makes no sense to suicide veteran crews. And it seems that many players complain about it. I will wait for the final patchnotes before making any decisions.
Also the initial reason for this change is the AT rocket strafe + ram combo. I'd rather nerf the rocket strafe because it is doctrinal and much less used.

Im playing this mod nearly every day and think that the current balance is in a very good state. I do not think that nerfing to ram or rocket strike is necessary. Im strongly against it. Nerfing overal just ruins the fun of this game and mod. How about focusing more on buffing underperforming units and abilities instead? I think that is a much better idea.

It is certainly not my intention to nerf fun aspects. But the mod is build on the balance of the vanilla game and uses many vanilla files. It is good to evaluate upcoming changes and implement the best, while ignoring others. Don't worry, I made a back-up of the entire folder of vanilla files to be able to revert any extreme change of the next vanilla patch.

@Lieutenant:

"Nerfing overal just ruins the fun of this game and mod. How about focusing more on buffing underperforming units and abilities instead? I think that is a much better idea."

This statement describes the design phylosophy of this mod I want to see, rather then specific aspect of the mod which should be improved or buffed.

Also why are you gaslighting me with "I don't see how nerfing the Soviet AT Rocket Strike ability would ruin the balance or the fun factor of the ENTIRE mod" statement when I never said such thing? I was talking about nerfing overal. I had no specific thing in mind. I do not have problem with nerfing something which is outright broken/OP and therefore ruins the gameplay, but AT strafe is far from that. Also, it belongs only to a specific commander so most of the time you will not even see it in the game.

@Sneakeye:

I will trust your reason to implement changes which are beneficial for the mod, after all you did a great job so far so I think you are very competent at that.

Originally posted by Mauritiux:

@Lieutenant:

"Nerfing overal just ruins the fun of this game and mod. How about focusing more on buffing underperforming units and abilities instead? I think that is a much better idea."

This statement describes the design phylosophy of this mod I want to see, rather then specific aspect of the mod which should be improved or buffed.

Also why are you gaslighting me with "I don't see how nerfing the Soviet AT Rocket Strike ability would ruin the balance or the fun factor of the ENTIRE mod" statement when I never said such thing? I was talking about nerfing overal. I had no specific thing in mind. I do not have problem with nerfing something which is outright broken/OP and therefore ruins the gameplay, but AT strafe is far from that. Also, it belongs only to a specific commander so most of the time you will not even see it in the game.

I'm not gaslighting. I'm asking a genuine question trying to understand what you're saying as well as wanting to know more because you left your comment extremely vague.
If you took offense to it, I apologize but I wasn't trying to instigate a fight, just trying to make discussion. Simply because someone makes a contradiction to you does not (necessarily) mean that they are trying to be disrespectful or spiteful.

Originally posted by Mauritiux:

I do not think that nerfing to ram or rocket strike is necessary. Im strongly against it. Nerfing overal just ruins the fun of this game and mod.

You stated that the AT Rocket shouldn't be nerfed then followed it up saying that nerfing in general would ruin the game/fun. Therefore it's logical to believe the two is correlated and that you think that the game is in a state of balance where a lot of aspects such as the Rocket Strike is either balanced or underpowered, thus why I made the comment.

To avoid miscommunications like this, you should probably try to be a lot more specific and state your entire position rather than only stating part of it. You can't assume that people will know what you're thinking and saying just based off a comment without context/evidence.

And while it is true, that the Rocket Strafe is exclusive to the Airborne Commander; you have to realize that a LOT of players use Airborne for that specific reason. It was powerful in Vanilla and is a popular choice then, which will also translate it's strength in 170.

@Lieutenant:

We are good, dont worry. I have no beef with you.

To more articulate the reason why Im against the nerf to the AT strafe is that every commander have different advantages. Some have heavy tanks, tank destroyers and other tools in the late game which help them to counter enemy heavy tanks. Airborne commander do not have access to any end game vehicle which can go toe to toe with german heavies so it compensates with AT strafe. I used it plenty of times and never thought it is overpowered. Most of the times it will only damage tanks and not even destroy them so if you do not have any follow up you just wasted your ammo.

Also the ram + AT strafe combo is not that attractive to me because I can easily lose my T34 in the process. Yes T34 cost less then Panther and Tiger but you need to use ammo for the strafe too and even then its not 100% guaranteed kill.

Last thing I want to add is that locking Ram ability behing vet 1 do not make sense to me because who in their right mind would want to sacrifice their experienced tank to the enemy? Its pretty big gamble which may or may not pay off. I think its better to preserve your tanks because they are much more useful when they are alive then a scrap of steaming metal.

I hope Im more clear this time.

Originally posted by Mauritiux:

@Lieutenant:

We are good, dont worry. I have no beef with you.

To more articulate the reason why Im against the nerf to the AT strafe is that every commander have different advantages. Some have heavy tanks, tank destroyers and other tools in the late game which help them to counter enemy heavy tanks. Airborne commander do not have access to any end game vehicle which can go toe to toe with german heavies so it compensates with AT strafe. I used it plenty of times and never thought it is overpowered. Most of the times it will only damage tanks and not even destroy them so if you do not have any follow up you just wasted your ammo.

Also the ram + AT strafe combo is not that attractive to me because I can easily lose my T34 in the process. Yes T34 cost less then Panther and Tiger but you need to use ammo for the strafe too and even then its not 100% guaranteed kill.

I hope Im more clear this time.

Glad to have cleared it up.

It is a nice alternative but the balance issue springs up in the context of team size.
In a 3v3 and 4v4 setting, and in some cases even a 2v2 setting. The Heavies will ultimately spring dominance over the battlefield with the seriously massive scale and duration the match will have and thus, the Rocket Strafe is balanced in that respect.
However issues begin to spring up in the context of 1v1 and smaller 2v2 games which is inherent in Vanilla. The issue becomes much less prevalent in 170 due to the nature of having the entire tank arsenal at the players' disposal by default.

One has to realize that the reason AT Rocket Strafes are on the annoying end of the spectrum is how they affect MBT combat in the 1v1 scenario.
The Rocket Strafe is often unlocked around the time when medium tanks begin to roll out as the match transitions in the mid game. The issue is that it can be used against the weaker tanks, that being the Panzer IVs, StuGs and Jagdpanzers, and if the Axis player delays for a bigger Panther, then a T-34/76 which can be used to exploit a breakthrough against pure infantry, and can still tackle a Panther with confidence they can cripple and/or even destroy it.

The tactic is that you'd use the T-34 to soften up the enemy MBT so they'd already be at around 50% health; after exchanging a few shots, even if the T-34 is losing to the enemy P4, the T-34 can simply ram into the enemy tank, disabling them and exposing them to the AT Strafe which is more than likely to destroy the tank.
In other words, even if the T-34 clearly lost the battle, the SOV player can still equalize and destroy the enemy tank using the combo.

What makes it incredibly stupid is that it's the equivalent to a long-ranged and improved snare. The only thing that can stop a T-34 ram is an obstruction such as terrain, or getting hit with a snare mid-ram.

Unlike the snares offered by Mainline infantry which only causes engine damage, the ram outright disables the vehicle for several seconds. Now this would be fine if EVERY faction had this ability but because it's unique to the soviets, it ends up being a tad unfair.
Every other faction has some sort of rocket strafe but because the Soviets have a ram, they're the sole faction that can use AT Rocket attacks better than their allied counterparts.
Compare this to the Guards Rifle unit that needs to expend munitions in order to button a vehicle and leaves them severely exposed to anti-infantry fire and makes them vulnerable to getting a grenade chucked on their heads.

If you tried to use a Thunderbolt strafe as the US, it'd be significantly more difficult because your ONLY method to snaring a tank is through a rifle grenade. So if you tried to use a Sherman, the enemy tank is more than likely to get away and escape both the ground and aerial attack, simply because it can reverse out of the attack zone and retreat back to their main base, firmly out of reach. More so if the enemy tank already has Veterancy 1. Should the enemy tank have Blitzkrieg and/or Panzer Tactician, then they can escape a nasty situation and render your air support practically pointless but the Ram nullifies both abilities.

Another issue is that it's discriminate. Radius-Based Air Support will always target the vehicle class that has a higher threat level.
The planes will prioritize firing at the healthier and larger heavies like the Tiger instead of prioritizing weaker and more vulnerable tanks like the Ostwind or Panzer IV.
So by being able to select your targets, even when there are multiple tanks in play, you can prioritize and neutralize the weak link whereas other factions cannot do so.

While yes, the strafe can miss it's target and is costly in terms of munitions in a 1v1 scenario, it's still a prevalent nuisance in a 1v1 where even if the Axis Player has done EVERYTHING right.
- Stays out of range of enemy infantry snares
- Picks off the enemy tank at a distance
- Has Blitzkrieg or Panzer Tactician ready

The Panzer IV can still lose that fight entirely because the T-34 can just stun it and take it down with air support.

A single T-34 Dive is more likely to confirm the kill than a Sherman or Cromwell dive.

Originally posted by Mauritiux:

Last thing I want to add is that locking Ram ability behing vet 1 do not make sense to me because who in their right mind would want to sacrifice their experienced tank to the enemy?

Lelic's Balance Department is who.
Personally, I don't think the Ram ability needs to be changed but rather the Rocket Strafe itself. The only reason I made this thread was because SneakEye models a lot of the mod around the base game design so if by some chance that he was to include the new changes to the official Ram ability, I thought I'd drop my two cents on the matter to see what could be done for it in the case the changes get adapted into the mod.

The current version of the live vanilla patch switched the Vet 1 requirement into a 50% health cap but to me, it doesn't at all change the Rocket Ram tactic.

Originally posted by Mauritiux:

Its pretty big gamble which may or may not pay off. I think its better to preserve your tanks because they are much more useful when they are alive then a scrap of steaming metal.

It's a pretty safe gamble in my opinion. If the tank is going down, why not?
It's better to cripple and give yourself an opportunity to destroy an enemy tank than simply let a T-34 die off when it has that sort of potential.

Thanks for sharing your opinion on this matter. I appreciate it.

If this combo is such a problem then why not to implement the same exact solution which solved the nasty "For Mother Russia" and "Shocktroopers" combo? Basically if T34 will be hit by AT weapon while ramming this ability will be interrupted and its activation will be disabled for few seconds. This way you or your opponent who wants to use this Ram + AT strafe combo will need to use it more tactically. He will no longer be able to rush straight at the tank without thinking but will need to flank its target from side or rear.

I think this change will fix this problem. What is your opinion on this?

Another alternative is to attach nominal fuel cost to this Ram ability.

I feel like that would actually work. If struck by any sort of AT, be it a snare, rocket launcher or tank shell, and it'd stop the T-34 dead in it's tracks, then I feel like that would help mitigate the problem. Pretty good idea.

I don't see why not, considering that the crew would need the momentum and a massive tank shell would, logically, slow it down and stun the crew. If the change were to be implemented, then it'll stop them from skrrrrting past a Raketen and Pak 40.
It'll definitely be a hundred times more reliable than having a mainline infantry squad take 50 years to shoot off a snare at the charging T-34 and gives the defending tank a chance to stop them if they time their shot right.

Needing to hit the enemy tank from a different angle sounds pretty darn good to me.

In regards to the fuel cost... I don't think that would do so well considering the effect - compare it to the Panzer IV Command Tank's breakthrough ability which is 50 fuel to increase the speed of all vehicles and allowing them to decap at an alarming rate.
I feel as though it wouldn't be worth delaying your next tank but that's just me.
Maybe it'll work, but I can't tell unless we get to see it in action.

Just checked the most recent patch notes from Relic forums and found this:

"T-34 Ram Ability

The majority of changes to ram are being reverted. The main issues are linked to certain off-map abilities, though, we are replacing the complete stun ram provided to give vehicles hit by this ability some ability to maneuver out of off-maps.

- Reverted/changed all changes; see below for updated list
- Ram inflicted criticals: Main Gun Destroyed, Heavy Engine Damage and Immobilized removed
- Ram no longer deals a complete stun on penetration and deflection. Instead, it will now slow target by 75% for 5 seconds and disable weapons."

Complete patch notes can be found here:

https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/245822/patch-preview-changelog

I think we should wait until this patch is released because this ability is changing pretty often. Who knows how it will look in the end?

They're changing around so much, it's a little nuts lol
We really should wait.