It does indeed introduce yet another sidetech. And is that really necessary? I like that the two HQs have the same costs and it feels well balanced. It is also intresting to see players use both openings in pvp.

Such big changes in timing goes hand in hand with big risks. I prefer to keep the current implementation.

I was looking foward to a cheap forward healing station but i guess not.

USF and Werh tents are having a buff with the cut on manpower cost but yet OKW still can't get a low price retreat point with healing like any other factions, is pretty tough to retreat all your units to HQ because if you put your Healing HQ outside your base in 1 vs 1, it becomes a magnet to arty strikes losing 50 fuel like is nothing while other factions have it cheaper...

Oprindeligt skrevet af Tortuguita:

I was looking foward to a cheap forward healing station but i guess not.

USF and Werh tents are having a buff with the cut on manpower cost but yet OKW still can't get a low price retreat point with healing like any other factions, is pretty tough to retreat all your units to HQ because if you put your Healing HQ outside your base in 1 vs 1, it becomes a magnet to arty strikes losing 50 fuel like is nothing while other factions have it cheaper...

If you played other factions than you would know that the medic tent and bunker don't heal, they collect wounded soldiers. Comparing solely healing structures does indeed unfavor OKW. However, I assume you know it is not fair to compare only that and I hope you agree that OKW has plenty of advantages in other aspects.

Oprindeligt skrevet af SneakEye:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Tortuguita:

I was looking foward to a cheap forward healing station but i guess not.

USF and Werh tents are having a buff with the cut on manpower cost but yet OKW still can't get a low price retreat point with healing like any other factions, is pretty tough to retreat all your units to HQ because if you put your Healing HQ outside your base in 1 vs 1, it becomes a magnet to arty strikes losing 50 fuel like is nothing while other factions have it cheaper...

If you played other factions than you would know that the medic tent and bunker don't heal, they collect wounded soldiers. Comparing solely healing structures does indeed unfavor OKW. However, I assume you know it is not fair to compare only that and I hope you agree that OKW has plenty of advantages in other aspects.

My bad, the building of the soviet with the cheaper retreat point and healing are tents so i mistake them xD

About the advantages that OKW has, is mostly with the armor which unless you are capable to keep the 7 model conscripts out of your fuel while they can just put a cheap retreat point/healing at the middle of the map then you can use the Panzer 4 to take them down but... The t76/86mm has hit the field which is by far the best medium tank. (in the vanilla game is commander locked but in the mod isnt)
Even better, if you go for a early luch they can just spam guards with ptrs rifle and with the anti infantry upgrade they can hold the line extremly easily. (This kills the scout car tactic to)

Remember that by default volks lose against 7 conscript with our their Mg42 upgrade, and even if you have it, they can get Stv rifles and good luck with that.( I will love to see penal doing a appearence but the conscript line is extremly cost efficient) so yeah... the advantage is pretty useless unless you can get to late game and get out your heavy armor but is extremly unlikely if the soviet knows what he must do

PD: And if you want to think that soviets troops can bleed a lot of MP, then they can build caches of Mp... Which is perfect xD

Oprindeligt skrevet af Tortuguita:

About the advantages that OKW has, is mostly with the armor which unless you are capable to keep the 7 model conscripts out of your fuel while they can just put a cheap retreat point/healing at the middle of the map then you can use the Panzer 4 to take them down but... The t76/86mm has hit the field which is by far the best medium tank. (in the vanilla game is commander locked but in the mod isnt)

The statement that a T-34/76 is the best medium seems rather unfounded.

While it *is* cheaper per tank, the performance matches what you pay for.
Testing shows that it is statistically inferior to the MBTs of every other faction
Additionally, it doesn't come with the same level of utility.
T-34/76 can score armored skirts but it's still a far cry from the Panzer IV or even the M4A3 Sherman's Dozer Blades.
The Critical Self-Repair is useful but in a direct engagement with enemy MBTs, this functional upgrade does not help you at all in the majority of cases.
The Ramming Maneuver works better when operating with other tanks nearby but then, that doesn't make the T-34 itself good does it?
The Secure Mode is a neato feature that the Germans have to pay for with a hefty 50 fuel price tag but again, it does not help you in direct combat.

Compare the M4A3 Sherman to the T-34/76
The Sherman gets additional durability with the Dozer Blade (Increased health from 640 to 720 as well as armor) and can create roadblocks. It has the option for either HE Shells which devastate infantry and still works against lighter vehicles, and AP Shells which allows it to go head to head with the Panzer IVs.
And if that wasn't enough, the Sherman can even fire off a Phosphorus shell to block LOS on weapon teams whilst burning them, as well as fire off smoke mortars for an infantry advance.
To add to it's strength, the Shermans get Radio Net at Veterancy 1 so in the later game, even the baseline tank of USF can maintain relevancy and get a much larger power spike compared to massed T-34s.
All for just an additional 10 fuel. (+50 Manpower and +10 Fuel cost if you go for the Dozer upgrade)

If you are referring to the T-34/85 which is the vanilla doctrinal tank that features additional armor and a larger tank cannon, you lose out on the Self-Repair to make it just a "tad" better in a slugging competition.
But when you compare this to the Sherman "Easy-Eight" which is the USF Equivalent, the E8 grossly outdamages and survives more punishment than the T-34/85.
The Spotter increases sight range and reduces incoming damage whereas the 85 has to rely on it's base armor and in a direct battle, it struggles to keep up against enemy and allied MBTs.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Tortuguita:

Even better, if you go for a early luch they can just spam guards with ptrs rifle and with the anti infantry upgrade they can hold the line extremly easily. (This kills the scout car tactic to)

The Guards regiment the Soviet offers are extremely powerful. There's no question about that. However, you have to realize that Axis generally favors long-ranged combat. So mechanized tactics and CQB assaults would fail against them, but more defense oriented play that involves a LOT of green cover and fortifications will make it difficult to effectively use Guards on the offense.

Additionally, while the Guards can crush the Germans like a lager can in direct combat, they are significantly vulnerable to indirect fire. So a single Walking Stuka or a few mortars can make short work of them if one isn't careful.

And while they are powerful against tanks with the PTRS rifles, they still can't survive long enough against a dedicated anti-infantry medium tank such as the Flammenpanzer Hetzer or Ostwind.

Even if they can get both the Anti-Infantry upgrade and their PTRS Package, they can only focus on one target at a time. So a coordinated attack from an SdKfz. 251 HT with flamethrowers and Assault Grenadiers would leave them extremely vulnerable as they have to pick a target.

While you could "spam" them, such a tactic incurs a massive manpower cost that can delay your teching and purchase of tanks if you have to constantly reinforce them. If your army is comprised of mostly Guards, you're gonna have a hard time maintaining your economy.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Tortuguita:

Remember that by default volks lose against 7 conscript with our their Mg42 upgrade, and even if you have it, they can get Stv rifles and good luck with that.( I will love to see penal doing a appearence but the conscript line is extremly cost efficient) so yeah... the advantage is pretty useless unless you can get to late game and get out your heavy armor but is extremly unlikely if the soviet knows what he must do

PD: And if you want to think that soviets troops can bleed a lot of MP, then they can build caches of Mp... Which is perfect xD

Massed conscripts become a liability. While they're cheap and have a massive squad size, you're not suffering from Manpower bleed but the detriment is that you're feeding the Germans veterancy. For both OKW and Ostheer, you're digging yourself an even bigger hole if you give their assault and mainline infantry free veterancy by letting them score kills on constant assaults.
(Note that Conscripts have slightly higher received accuracy than normal, making them extremely vulnerable if used recklessly)

While yes, you will be able to maintain that pressure, there comes a point where you're not accomplishing anything if your assaults aren't successful. And if the Axis player manages to rack a couple of veterancy levels, then you're making it more difficult for your team mates to cover for you when you retreat or fallback.

Volks vs Cons is heavily dependent on the skill of both players and difficult to objectively as well as practically justify, as it heavily revolves around which units can take best advantage of cover as well as which ones have supporting fire.
There are too many situations where either unit can win, depending on battlefield conditions, positioning and upgrades.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Lieutenant:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Tortuguita:

About the advantages that OKW has, is mostly with the armor which unless you are capable to keep the 7 model conscripts out of your fuel while they can just put a cheap retreat point/healing at the middle of the map then you can use the Panzer 4 to take them down but... The t76/86mm has hit the field which is by far the best medium tank. (in the vanilla game is commander locked but in the mod isnt)

The statement that a T-34/76 is the best medium seems rather unfounded.

While it *is* cheaper per tank, the performance matches what you pay for.
Testing shows that it is statistically inferior to the MBTs of every other faction
Additionally, it doesn't come with the same level of utility.
T-34/76 can score armored skirts but it's still a far cry from the Panzer IV or even the M4A3 Sherman's Dozer Blades.
The Critical Self-Repair is useful but in a direct engagement with enemy MBTs, this functional upgrade does not help you at all in the majority of cases.
The Ramming Maneuver works better when operating with other tanks nearby but then, that doesn't make the T-34 itself good does it?
The Secure Mode is a neato feature that the Germans have to pay for with a hefty 50 fuel price tag but again, it does not help you in direct combat.

Compare the M4A3 Sherman to the T-34/76
The Sherman gets additional durability with the Dozer Blade (Increased health from 640 to 720 as well as armor) and can create roadblocks. It has the option for either HE Shells which devastate infantry and still works against lighter vehicles, and AP Shells which allows it to go head to head with the Panzer IVs.
And if that wasn't enough, the Sherman can even fire off a Phosphorus shell to block LOS on weapon teams whilst burning them, as well as fire off smoke mortars for an infantry advance.
To add to it's strength, the Shermans get Radio Net at Veterancy 1 so in the later game, even the baseline tank of USF can maintain relevancy and get a much larger power spike compared to massed T-34s.
All for just an additional 10 fuel. (+50 Manpower and +10 Fuel cost if you go for the Dozer upgrade)

If you are referring to the T-34/85 which is the vanilla doctrinal tank that features additional armor and a larger tank cannon, you lose out on the Self-Repair to make it just a "tad" better in a slugging competition.
But when you compare this to the Sherman "Easy-Eight" which is the USF Equivalent, the E8 grossly outdamages and survives more punishment than the T-34/85.
The Spotter increases sight range and reduces incoming damage whereas the 85 has to rely on it's base armor and in a direct battle, it struggles to keep up against enemy and allied MBTs.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Tortuguita:

Even better, if you go for a early luch they can just spam guards with ptrs rifle and with the anti infantry upgrade they can hold the line extremly easily. (This kills the scout car tactic to)

The Guards regiment the Soviet offers are extremely powerful. There's no question about that. However, you have to realize that Axis generally favors long-ranged combat. So mechanized tactics and CQB assaults would fail against them, but more defense oriented play that involves a LOT of green cover and fortifications will make it difficult to effectively use Guards on the offense.

Additionally, while the Guards can crush the Germans like a lager can in direct combat, they are significantly vulnerable to indirect fire. So a single Walking Stuka or a few mortars can make short work of them if one isn't careful.

And while they are powerful against tanks with the PTRS rifles, they still can't survive long enough against a dedicated anti-infantry medium tank such as the Flammenpanzer Hetzer or Ostwind.

Even if they can get both the Anti-Infantry upgrade and their PTRS Package, they can only focus on one target at a time. So a coordinated attack from an SdKfz. 251 HT with flamethrowers and Assault Grenadiers would leave them extremely vulnerable as they have to pick a target.

While you could "spam" them, such a tactic incurs a massive manpower cost that can delay your teching and purchase of tanks if you have to constantly reinforce them. If your army is comprised of mostly Guards, you're gonna have a hard time maintaining your economy.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Tortuguita:

Remember that by default volks lose against 7 conscript with our their Mg42 upgrade, and even if you have it, they can get Stv rifles and good luck with that.( I will love to see penal doing a appearence but the conscript line is extremly cost efficient) so yeah... the advantage is pretty useless unless you can get to late game and get out your heavy armor but is extremly unlikely if the soviet knows what he must do

PD: And if you want to think that soviets troops can bleed a lot of MP, then they can build caches of Mp... Which is perfect xD

Massed conscripts become a liability. While they're cheap and have a massive squad size, you're not suffering from Manpower bleed but the detriment is that you're feeding the Germans veterancy. For both OKW and Ostheer, you're digging yourself an even bigger hole if you give their assault and mainline infantry free veterancy by letting them score kills on constant assaults.
(Note that Conscripts have slightly higher received accuracy than normal, making them extremely vulnerable if used recklessly)

While yes, you will be able to maintain that pressure, there comes a point where you're not accomplishing anything if your assaults aren't successful. And if the Axis player manages to rack a couple of veterancy levels, then you're making it more difficult for your team mates to cover for you when you retreat or fallback.

Volks vs Cons is heavily dependent on the skill of both players and difficult to objectively as well as practically justify, as it heavily revolves around which units can take best advantage of cover as well as which ones have supporting fire.
There are too many situations where either unit can win, depending on battlefield conditions, positioning and upgrades.

Sorry if is a bit messy, i'm not really good with the comment system but i will try my best.


1- ... You totally missed the mark, i said t34/85 mm, not a t34/76 xD. About the last bit that you are comparing to the USF... well yes both are incredibly good but at least the USF must rack a ton of fuel before taking to the Easy Eight and upgrade it, when the Soviet can use a t34/86 to hit the field more early ( no upgrades ) and destroy any OKW tank at the moment. The Panzer 4 needs both upgrades (squirts and panzer commander) to have any chance to survive the encounter and if he gets a lucky shot with the Heat ability (45 more ammo) maybe you can take it down but is still not worth it because your enemy can pull off better even if you take it down because of the new mechanics of breakdowns which is better suited for low price tanks, when costly tanks like OKW can't afford at all a critical injury. (Even with out this system the T34/85 is still better because is cost efficent most of the time... unless you are really stupid xD)

2- ... I like the fact that you use solutions to the guard spam ( green cover, mortar and walking stuka) when in 1 vs 1 the things go down so fast because (okw) can't keep up with the amout of units that soviets can throw at them, first the cheap mg from the partisans, the guards, and conscripts, you are always getting push down early/mid game because of the amount of units that they can put on the field, there is no chance to fight back, you can maybe go for panzerfusilers but this needs the upgrade to fight 7 conscripts squads and the guards because they losse the 1 vs 1 fights, is just sad.

Walking stuka is a 100 fuel investment while you have a t70 crushing you troops and a t34/86 cooking fastly. (and two raken aren't gonna cut it because you are using panzerfusiliers to match the insane volume of the soviet attacks so you are bleeding like a pig, when the soviet enemy can just spend 60 ammo in a MP rack and live the dream)

¿Mortars? ¿When you are already outnumber? Remember, i'm talking about 1 vs 1 match, there isn't such a thing as building green cover or a good use of mortar when there is a massive amount of units heading you way.

¿They can't kill a otswind or a flamepanzer hetzer? ¿Are you even paying attention to the patch notes? Ptrs got buffed and even with out that buff guards can carry 3/4 ptrs to the field if you unlock the barracks, that is more than enough to put a otswind or a flamepanzer in a critical injure condition, and you just trade of some MP but remember isnt a problem because you have a cheap healing tent and mp caches... so no worries. (Once again, the OKW guy must spend Fuel to counter your cheap MP units, and the t34/86 is still cooking really good)

¿Bleeding MP? not really, once again, you have the MP caches so you can easily keep it up if you are decent enough. You outnumber the volks/panzerfusiliers and can defeat them 1 vs 1 with your guards or 7 conscripts so yeah, the enemy is gonna bleed more faster than you because of these reasons.

3-... ¿Conscripts are a liablity? Remember, the game must reach extremly late game to give a volk squad max veterancy and even with that Conscripts already reach vet 3 and can be upgraded with 2 lmgs or the cheaps SVG rifles, they can bet them early/mid game and the game is over for the OKW guy because he can't keep up with the conscript/guard number. Once again, only if he really makes a mistake, like a bad push or lucky granade (he must be really doing other things to that to happend) you can't beat the soviet because they have the upperhand early/mid game and with that the game is done because you cant reach late game with enough resources.

You can test it by yourself, put a 7 conscript squad against volks/panzer with out upgrades and they can really hold and sometimes defeat the volks/panzer because of that 1 plus model, and with SVG they become even more great because you can carry this upgrade until late game with any worry. (and doesnt drop if the enemy wipe your squad, what a amazing thing haha)

About the support units that can change this outcome, the soviet that buy cheap mgs from the HQ with out any restriction so yeah... i think even if the conscripts eat a granade they can just dance at the face of the volks because there is a mg of partisans waiting for them with vodka in hand.

And once again, you have a tent that cost 200 mp and can heal your troops easily when the okw must use ammo to get any kind of early healing which once again, there isnt enough ammo to upgrade your volks to hold their ground against that guard unit... while a conscript squad is flanking them like it is nothing haha xD

PD: I mostly play 1 vs 1 match, and fighting Riflemen or Conscripts/Guards is just a disgusting experience, Conscripts can beat your volks with out bleeding mp, Guards beat the volks 1 vs 1 and can destroy any vehicle and cause massive damage just with a 70 ammo upgrade in the barracks and Riflemen just need to pay 60 of ammo to become a mg42 suppresing turret by just pressing a botton, what a amazing thing to see xD (not counting the passive heal in level 1 or the better reloads, like is nothing or the sprint ability, yeah is just a thing xD)
PD: I totally forgot! The Sargent is a thing in this mod, a unit that can BUFF defense and damage just standing there and the area is really big, so yeah, great! (Commisar is good too but it needs a lot amount of micro at cost to much)
PD: Thanks for your response! I appreciate it greatly!

Can we play a 1v1 match?
I'd like to see this for myself

Oprindeligt skrevet af Lieutenant:

Can we play a 1v1 match?
I'd like to see this for myself

I'm not a soviet player so i can't recreate this, but for sure we can try. Go OKW, i'm gonna try my best to play Soviets xD

Update: The guards regiment can just spend 95 of ammo (instead of 75) in the barracks to have 3 ptrs and one single lmg (the upgrade gives you 2 lmg) and still get the ability to pin down tanks... ¿Is this alright? xD

Oprindeligt skrevet af Tortuguita:

Update: The guards regiment can just spend 95 of ammo (instead of 75) in the barracks to have 3 ptrs and one single lmg (the upgrade gives you 2 lmg) and still get the ability to pin down tanks... ¿Is this alright? xD

Yes that is intended.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Lieutenant:

Can we play a 1v1 match?
I'd like to see this for myself

Well, you got the 1 vs 1, i hope you enjoyed xD