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First, its line of sight is 360 degree, the Jagdpanzer IV has the 140 degree sight cone.
Personally I always choose it over the puma and can hold of Shermans and T34 (without bulletin), for the following reasons:
Hetzer vs puma
Armor: 180 vs 25
HP: 560 vs 400
Target size: 15 vs 18
Penetration: 150/165/180 vs 100/120/140
Can camo at vet 1.
It costs only 30 fuel more than a puma, while the only downside is no rotating turret and less sight. The Panzer IV comes 85 fuel later and costs 35 fuel more, which even has comparable durability before its armor upgrade. The model does not have a panzer commander animation. The current upgrade creates more difference between the Hetzer and Jagdpanzer IV.
First, its line of sight is less than any of those tanks, especially against the jagpanzer 4 with the upgrade like you said it, so if its role is to stop or snipe enemy tanks it can't do it because it must rotate the turret and can't see more far than other tanks so, bad.
¿Over a puma? Remember than in 1 vs 1 you can't afford a slow and 100 fuel cost AT gun. The medium allies tanks can easily flank you with out any danger and you don't have any defensive ability, no smoke and less line of sight that any of those tanks. Yeah more degrees but less range of sight.
Even Better, the stuart and (the british version) can run around you with theirs especial shoot so good luck with that.
If you take a 100 fuel and 12 pop investment over a t4 upgrade (panzer truck 85) and the 15 fuel difference that you need for the panzer 4, then i don't know what to tell you, that is your preference but in most situations allies rush medium tanks and light tanks, both can out run and solo kill a hetzer with out any problem.
About "abusing" this bug, try to play 1 vs 1 with the mod on against a competent USF o SOVIET opponent and invest on this tank, is a spectacular situation. I think that is the main problem with this type of unit, yeah in team matchs can do something because everything becomes a bottle neck against 1 opponent so you can hide and wait because they can't flank you by any means but in 1 vs 1 this situation is other, a single medium tank can and WILL flank you because you have a slower, 12 pop, and most costly version than theirs light or medium tanks
PD: Even better, the Jagpanzer 4 can be a effective tank hunter because it has more range, more range of sight, upgrade and HE shells, making in it a far better tank hunter.
PD 2: About the stats comparation with the puma, both have the same objetive, kill tanks or medium vehicles, the puma can keep up with the extra range of sight, more speed, smoke, and extra penetration upgrade and HE shells, with out counting bulletin of extra reload speed and pen. So... yeah, the hetzer is a more bulky version of the puma but with out the tank-killing skills that made the puma, a puma.
¿That's it? ¿No counter argument? I guess you like it that way, nothing to do, hetzer isn't any good in 1 vs 1 situations and you know it.
¿Maybe really testing the unit in a 1 vs 1 match? Timing is a crucial part of the game, i agree, this unit can compete in a team match, i can see that, but his cost, limited use on the battlefield and enemy counter parts are to much for a little + armor/life and camo vet1.
Like in the title, ¿which use can have the hetzer? You clearly play the mod when upgrading this one, but in my 1000 hs playing only 1 vs 1 match vs people, not even a single OKW player buyed a hetzer at any point because a 100 fuel investment is to much and the 50 ammo upgrade is useless because a tank hunter is meant to keep distances from infantry or any other entity.
The only thing i'm asking for is a testing of the unit valuable against USF and SOVIET normal build order and timing because isn't worth it. Any tank destroyer can and will dominate you. (Just ask around, any honest player will tell you that the hetzer isn't worth)
The exact same thing happend with the little AT Soviet team weapon, it was really underperforming because no one in his right mind will pick it in any kind of situation because you have better options available, in this one, puma or a 20 fuel wait for a panzer 4.
¿Okw fanboy? ¿Really? I can say exactly the same when i look to the mp caches of the soviets or the rangers power in 1 vs 1 zzz
Have you not asked for a buff for okw in all of your posts?
It's not everyone's first choice but for what it does, it does so competently and works well
The primary reason people don't get it is not because it's bad but because of circumstance
The Hetzer fulfills a similar role to the Ostheer StuG (Shares so many characteristics with it) where it's meant to square off against enemy medium tanks but nothing more
The Jagdpanzer IV, despite being a tank destroyer, has less pen than the SU-85 and just like in Vanilla, it's more meant to fend off rushed mediums like the M4A3 and T-34/76.
Think of the situation this way, the enemy has a T-34 already and you're stuck in Mech and know that you cannot delay any further for the Schwere since he can just rush the HQ and destroy it. The Puma can definitely fight off the enemy with enough micro but it's lower penetration means you need to get closer, forcing YOU to go for a dive, and if they have snares? Well good luck trying to hit the rear armor or close that distance without getting nailed with the Puma's lower stats.
The Jagdpanzer Hetzer's greater durability and better gun justifies that extra 30 fuel sink since A) you don't need to have god-tier micro to outmaneuver the T-34 or M4A3, and B) The enemy is tempted to rush YOU instead since it's a casemate, meaning they WANT to go for a flanking attack to avoid it's gun.
Is it worse than the Jagdpanzer IV? Yeah but the fuel differential is a world of difference for a slight reduction in overall effectiveness in exchange for durable and early AT.
This is also the one case where a Pintle MG on a Tank Destroyer actually makes sense from a mechanical perspective as this allows the Hetzer to farm some veterancy before enemy tanks arrive, by neutralizing some infantry and acting in a supporting fire role, giving them what is basically a small headstart and method to achieving at least Veterancy 1. Meaning that it is not entirely reliant on scrapping enemy vehicles to progress it's already outstanding veterancy.
Timing and Fuel Difference
35 Fuel for Mechanized + 20 Fuel for Panzer Manufacturing + 100 Fuel for Hetzer = 155 Fuel
35 Fuel + 20 Fuel + 85 Fuel for Schwere + 135 Fuel for Panzer IV = 275 Fuel
That 120 fuel could instead go to a 251 Halftrack and Puma to help back up the Hetzer
If you can get both the Puma and Hetzer, you can use the Hetzer to draw in the enemy T-34 then use the Puma to go for a flanking attack, etc.
(If you have the time to wait for the Schwere and enough fuel to get the Panzer IV, you have enough time to get the Hetzer and Puma)
¿May because it need buffs? Overall, Soviets and Usf are way beyond OKW in a lot of things, better early infantry that can dominate the map easily and early vehicles that can hit the field early enough so okw only choice is to pick up a puma or at making it even more difficult to control the difference in infantry around the map.
I having playing both sides and Ally forces (except british because volks with mg34 kill you before you can get to cover quickly enough) have it a lot easier to manouver and cheaper weapons and replenishment (extra ways of healing) when okw doesn't have any new way to replenish troops other than a truck that is vulnerable to any mortar emplacement that by default allies can build or 45 ammo payment each and everytime they go back to base.
PD: My bad about the fuel, but the puma is still there and can make a lot more than a hetzer. I gonna explain that on Lieutenant comment.
PD: Once again, wrong, i'm totally fine with the little at rework and those changes to partisans replenish cost and other things because it was in a bad state so no... i can see other factions problems but okw still lacks somethings to get toe to toe against the two bigs (Soviets and USF)
Well you are saying what i'm trying to say in a different way, in 1 of 15 matches against a OKW player 1 vs 1 only in that one a hetzer can be spotted because it can be only useful in those situations where the map is in a static spot and you can snipe/control flanks with your other forces but ONLY on those.
Comparing it to the stug i don't think is fair, this one has STUN, SMOKE and can choose between (scope and mg42, i think) it cost less fuel, less manpower and 10 pop cap. If the enemy wants to flank you, you can make a run for it with a smoke granade or stun the t34 right there and there when the hetzer is totally out luck because... well, it can only run backwards xD
About farming veterancy with the hetzer. First, you must upgrade your volk squads with double mg34 to take on the enemy infantry (conscript and rifleman) both outnumber you around the map at all times so you want to spend 50 ammo extra ammo on a tank hunter running behind these units? (you even mentioned snares, they are waiting for you) even BETTER now with the critical random hits your hetzer is toasted if its want to "farm" veterancy on those situations. You can look at how much it takes to kill 2 models of a infantry unit (out of snares range) and how much you need for vet 1 with out killing at least two vehicles before a medium arrives to stop you right there.
The puma can do a better job, is just about micro but the stats are there, you have smoke, more speed, more sight, better reloading and can spend 45 ammo (Instead of a 50 ammo in a useless mg42) to get you a nice armor penetration chance with out adding those two bulletins (reload speed and more pen), so no, the puma is better, even if you are in the same situation that a hetzer (the one you used) with that bit of extra micro the puma can be a more useful hetzer.
PD: Yeah, the fuel count is pretty bad, i'm wrong, but spending 100 fuel and 12 cap in a hard situation for a worst puma, slow with no abilities isn't a viable strategy to be honest. (delaying the obersoldaten even more, those rangers and shock are gonna make quick work of your poor volks)
Like the Little AT soviet gun, the hetzer doesn't show up in the map because i can only works on those situations and nothing more. Not worth it.
I will like to see those reps, maybe i'm wrong and people use it. ¿But more than a puma and how much times? that too.
This is dependent on the player's preference and the situation of the battle. Many people on the discord enjoy using the Hetzer and give it praise for it's great veterancy scaling.
A lot of maps in the 1v1 rotation are open such as Crossing in the Woods and Ladoga Karelia which is actually what you want for a long-ranged tank destroyer - not close-ranged urban maps or areas with lots of flanking routes such as Stalingrad.
Players like the Puma because it's a super fast armored car with a gun that punches above it's own weight, so yeah, people like the Puma because it's able to zoom around and style on vehicles. But that doesn't mean you can't overlook the alternatives.
There are other factors that play into this lack of usage (see below).
They share so many similar characteristics. Same health, role and design as a casemate TD. The biggest differential that this has versus the StuG III is that it comes out the fastest and at far less fuel cost.
At minimum, when going for a full economy tech-skip Ostruppen build, you have to expend 125 fuel to get the Battle Phase techs and the tier structure. Then spend that additional 90 fuel for the StuG III TD. Requiring a total of 215 Fuel.
Compare that to the Hetzer who only needs 55 fuel for Mechanized Regiment and Panzer Manufacturing and only 100 fuel to get it. The total cost is 155, a serious 60 fuel difference on top of the fact that you can go for Mechanized Regiment as your first tech structure as OKW.
Volksgrenadiers lost their MG34, this is to temper the power of Volks builds, encouraging the player to use other units such as JLIs as well as to give purpose for the Weapon Racks.
The game has been adjusted already with a tempered 1 CP delay for USF and Soviet Squad Upgrades, on top of several changes to Oberkommando's Early Game such as flame grenades being available much earlier and reduced build times for the sWS Halftrack, providing a short boost in power ramp up for Volksgrens and further bring the timing of the MG34 HMG to arrive sooner.
The Puma is favored because this is what people are used to. The Jagdpanzer Hetzer isn't part of Vanilla at all and therefore very few strategies, if any, have been made with the Hetzer in mind. Even so, this is a budget TD, not a replacement for a tank destroyer.
The Puma is intended to dive, that in of itself is an incredibly dangerous task that will likely get the Puma killed, especially since one snare is enough to completely nullify it's speed.
The Hetzer might be slower but that also means a snare is much less consequential, and it's positioning that puts it next to your forces instead of entering enemy lines makes it much harder to take down, because as I said before, you're forcing your enemy to take a dive instead and risk getting snared themselves.
You say it's a worse Puma when the only thing the Hetzer is lacking is mobility and a Veterancy 1 skillshot.
The Puma NEEDS the mobility because it has to close the distance in order for it's gun to actually penetrate the target and it's drastically low armor value means that even the Soviet M-42 can penetrate it. Not to mention, Guards Rifle squads will easily make short work of the Puma whereas they'll need to work hard to deal any substantial damage to the Hetzer.
The Hetzer has more health than the Puma, at 560 HP (same HP as the StuG III), allowing it to survive exactly 4 shots from medium tanks, the same as they do, compared to the 400 HP of the Puma that can only withstand 3 shots.
(For reference, most tanks such as the T-34-76 deal 160 damage per shot)
On top of that, it has MORE armor than the StuG III and an even smaller target size
Hetzer Frontal Armor - 180
StuG III Frontal Armor - 140
Hetzer Target Size - 15
StuG III Target Size - 17
With a comparable gun that deals more damage and penetration than the Puma
Puma's Weapon Damage is 120, meaning it needs 6 or so shots to kill a medium tank
The Hetzer's weapon damage is 140 meaning that it will 4-Shot tanks such as the StuG and M10 Wolverine, and mulch Light Vehicles in 3 shots compared to the 4 needed by the Puma.
The argument that Veterancy 1 Ability is what sets the Puma better than the Hetzer is a shallow argument because you argued that the Hetzer can't earn it's veterancy 1 even with the MG34 Pintle, but that logic applies even more to the Puma who doesn't have a Pintle MG, only a turret MG, making it less effective against infantry and thus is even less likely to have it's Vet 1 Skill Shot when Medium Tanks arrive.
The Hetzer plays more defensively, stoic with a better health pool and armor value, and it's Veterancy 1 Ability to camouflage means that it's the ideal tank to bait enemy vehicles into your weapon range. This means that it does the job BETTER than the Puma because you don't even need to micro the Hetzer to close the distance on your opponent - they can do it for you.
Especially when it gets a Vet 3 First Strike Bonus that increases accuracy, damage and penetration, with a Vet 4 Damage Bonus - you're looking at an extremely strong contender to knock out enemy medium tanks if kept alive long enough.
People like to use what they are familiar with and even with the less micro that presents the hetzer it can't outmatch the puma at all.
You said that the damage is lower compared to the hetzer but the puma can use 45 ammo to unlock HEAT rounds making it at pair with the hetzer damage (even more if you upgrade the pen thing and bulletins) so that is out of the question.
Once again you said that PTRS guards men can't make significant damage to the hetzer when that isn't true at all, guards can make considerable damage to the hetzer, yeah it has more armor but its life starts to go down quite quickly against these and that mounted mg34 isn't gonna cut it at all. Of course those guards can even use the special ability to pin you down right there with that slow speed that you already have, when the puma can pop out a smoke and be done with it.
I never said that the puma needs the vet 1 veterancy, that is something that other put out there, what i was saying is that is really difficult to get that vet 1 UNIQUE ability that the hetzer has before a enemy tank hits the battlefield if you don't at least kill two vehicles before it arrives.
(Once again, farming exp from killing infantry units with this things isn't something that you can do with the hetzer because his speed doesn't allow it to get out of the situation if a snare is coming at you or a enemy at or light tank comes around when the puma can, smoke and extra speed)
The characteristics of the stug are better because it has abilities that can help to do a lot more that a hetzer can, like i said, yeah it cost more to get it out on the battlefield but that wasn't something you stated before.
About the infantry changes, is still a problem. Volks are outnumbered at all times around the match, they are always one squad ahead of you (two if they use partisans or airbone infantry) and until you unlock the mg34 racks the enemy forces have the advantage getting more resources because that. The use of other infantry is great but the cost of these ones doesn't compensate for the numbers of allies forces at all times. With out any upgrade you are losing ground constantly and with them is to late to push them back unless they forget to upgrade theirs which can go toe to toe against your volks 1 vs 1. (Riflemen can surpress by just paying for a lmg and conscript have 1 models extra and "hit the dirt" making in them extremely durable, when volks can pay 140 ammo x2 mg34 and... well... they can... emmm ¿Look? hahaha)
Like i said in the other comment, all this things are good here on paper but the lack of usage in 1 vs 1 of the hetzer and no reps to see these lovebly things unfould like a proper match would is undeniable fact that isn't perfoming that well, once again, the little At situation.
Thanks for the listening, some can deliver facts with out calling other fanboys xD